Who can speak to the text?

[Taken]

Your hurting, I get that...

Oh please...your armchair assessment is a fail.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Are you basing this on 2 Peter 2:4? Where do you get the "greater in strength and power" from?



Firstly the messengers of Korah, Dathan & Abiram and the 250 princes with them are likened to Genesis 6 & Genesis 19

1. You have Israel being saved from false messengers Numbers 16
2. You have Noah and family being saved by evil thinking people Gen 6:5
3. You have Lot and daughters saved by the wickedness of Gen 19:6

Peter is using OT examples of apostasy to prove the reality of 2 Peter 2:1

Number 1 false teachers within the camp
Number 2 was threatening to remove the seed of the woman from the earth
Number 3 such was the influence that Lot's wife succumb to their influence and looked back

All three examples should teach us that Christianity will adopt false teachers and their teachings.

i.e angels can sin.

And with that the coward doesn't want to stand up and "face" me, so he can now continue to be rude and belligerent to people and get away with it all he wants to.

@face2face. How about you face me "face to face"? Or is your tag name as much of a fraud as your theology is?

 

[marks]

Are you basing this on 2 Peter 2:4? Where do you get the "greater in strength and power" from?

Expand your context a bit . . .

2 Peter 2:1-11 LITV
1) But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the Master who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2) And many will follow their destructive ways, by whom the way of truth will be evil spoken of.
3) And by covetousness, with well-turned words, they will use you for gain, for whom judgment of old does not linger, and their destruction does not slumber.
4) For if God did not spare sinning angels, but delivered them to chains of darkness, thrust down into Tartarus, having been kept to judgment;
5) and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah the eighth, a herald of righteousness, bringing a flood on a world of ungodly ones;
6) and covering the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with ashes, He condemned them with an overthrow, setting an example to men intending to live ungodly.
7) And He delivered righteous Lot, who had been oppressed by the behavior of the lawless in lustfulness.
8) For that righteous one living among them day after day, in seeing and in hearing, his righteous soul was tormented with their lawless deeds.
9) But the Lord knows to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unjust for a day of judgment, being punished,
10) and most of all those going after flesh in the lust of defilement, and despising rulership, darers, self-pleasing; they do not tremble at glories, speaking evil;
11) where angels being greater in strength and power do not bring against them a reproaching charge before the Lord.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Not at all!

John 8:44 KJV
44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Much love!

Marks, what do you believe this verse is teaching?

 

[marks]

Marks, what do you believe this verse is teaching?

Let's stay with Peter.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Expand your context a bit . . .

2 Peter 2:1-11 LITV
1) But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the Master who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2) And many will follow their destructive ways, by whom the way of truth will be evil spoken of.
3) And by covetousness, with well-turned words, they will use you for gain, for whom judgment of old does not linger, and their destruction does not slumber.
4) For if God did not spare sinning angels, but delivered them to chains of darkness, thrust down into Tartarus, having been kept to judgment;
5) and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah the eighth, a herald of righteousness, bringing a flood on a world of ungodly ones;
6) and covering the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with ashes, He condemned them with an overthrow, setting an example to men intending to live ungodly.
7) And He delivered righteous Lot, who had been oppressed by the behavior of the lawless in lustfulness.
8) For that righteous one living among them day after day, in seeing and in hearing, his righteous soul was tormented with their lawless deeds.
9) But the Lord knows to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unjust for a day of judgment, being punished,
10) and most of all those going after flesh in the lust of defilement, and despising rulership, darers, self-pleasing; they do not tremble at glories, speaking evil;
11) where angels being greater in strength and power do not bring against them a reproaching charge before the Lord.

Much love!

Exactly.

2 Peter 2:12 But these men, like irrational animals—creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed—do not understand •whom they are insulting, and consequently in their destruction they will be destroyed,

Some human messengers have greater strength and power i.e Numbers 16 250 Princes - leaders in Israel standing in ignorance over those they were enlisted to minister and lead in righteousness but sought power and office for themselves. Verse 12 answers Verse 11 - very clear.

"But these men" NOT "divine angels"

 

[Hidden In Him]

I await you rebuttal, if you truly have one worthy of reading.

Perhaps the other forum is for you as you have demonstrated that your understanding here in this thread is somewhat suspect.

Jay, it's truly a shame you had to waste responses on this guy. I saw it coming so I didn't even bother.

Don't waste your time on people like this. He should not even be replied to.

God bless,
HiH

 

[Taken]

@marks ~

Angels created spirits...have Freewill
Man created body...has a natural spirit...have Freewill
Angels...all created WITH God...
Angels...who freely chose to be Against God...duh...no longer WITH God
1st Man With God...rejected Gods Direction...oops...no longer WITH God
Gods Offering to Angels...Reconciliation WITH God...nope
Gods Offering to Man....Reconciliation WITH God...Yes
Jesus’ Offering to All Men...Re-birth Secure and Permanent Reconciliation WITH God, WITH Gods Power IN the man...Yes

Pretty Basic 101.
Don’t see the fixation on 2 Pet 2:4 needing to be “DEALT” with.
Holy Angels IN Heaven...who Freely turned Against God...
....CAST DOWN....TO Earth
Holy Angels ON Earth...who Freely turned Against God...
...CAST DOWN.....TO Hell.
God deals with the “ungodly”....Angels and Mankind....How is not Secret.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[face2face]

@marks ~
Pretty Basic 101.
Don’t see the fixation on 2 Pet 2:4 needing to be “DEALT” with.
Taken

HiH's contribution is the same as yours.

 

[Hidden In Him]

HiH's contribution is the same as yours.

So you are petty enough to reference me but not man enough to face me. Why am I not surprised you coward.

You don't even know what my contribution is because I'm not dumb enough to engage a child in a "debate," yet you obviously have a firm grasp on my "contribution."

 

[face2face]

So you are petty enough to reference me but not man enough to face me. Why am I not surprised you coward.

You don't even know what my contribution is because I'm not dumb enough to engage a child in a "debate," yet you obviously have a firm grasp on my "contribution."

What do want Hidden? You're not dumb, okay...have we communicated elsewhere in the forum? Have we crossed paths on a subject, or offended you personally somehow? You made it very clear you don't want to engage with the OP, so whats your MO? If you dont care for the OP, move on.

 

[Taken]

HiH's contribution is the same as yours.

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

You make a statement, of your disbelief, (that angels can sin), then Post a Scripture that Expressly speaks of angels sinning....
And are disappointed because no one agrees with you?

Are you unaware, Converted Christians STAND FOR the Word of God?
And you trying to prod people into Considering your view, is being Rejected?

 

[face2face]

And are disappointed because no one agrees with you?

Not so...engage, don't engage, its up to you - its a forum where you can create an subject title and discuss it openly.
You have said you personally don't care for the OP, although you have held strong opinions previously. What to make of that then? Leave it with you.

 

[marks]

Exactly.

2 Peter 2:12 But these men, like irrational animals—creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed—do not understand •whom they are insulting, and consequently in their destruction they will be destroyed,

Some human messengers have greater strength and power i.e Numbers 16 250 Princes - leaders in Israel standing in ignorance over those they were enlisted to minister and lead in righteousness but sought power and office for themselves. Verse 12 answers Verse 11 - very clear.

"But these men" NOT "divine angels"

2 Peter 2:9-12 KJV
9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Two types are named here, these false teachers, who are not afraid to speak evil of dignitities, while the angels know better, even being mightier.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sorry Ronald we are dealing with the Scriptural evidence for angels sinning which to date we have proven 2 Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6 is dealing with Numbers 16 as per post #17.

I am not interested in discussing ancient mythology in this thread, if you want to start another feel free to do so.

sorry face to face, but your reading of Peter is lazy to the extreme!

The whole context is pre flood and Numbers is long after the flood.

And also sorry face to face- Jude 1 is about angles. the place they are locked in is tartarus and that is the third region of hell. Your opinion is based on your reinterpreting the word of God and changing definitions to suit your need and not as how God inspired HIs Word.

2 Peter is a chronological history of OT events as it is written and not as bouncing around as you reinterpret it to mean.

Explain to me why I should accept your reinterpretation of Numbers 16 as literal as compared to Jude 1 and simply not accept how God inspired His word as literal which can only mean spirit beings in Gensis 6 and Jude 1

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Just another imaginative Christian who can't deal with the text. Answer the question what OT story was Peter and Jude alluding to? Human messengers remember!

I think you are referring to yourself as imaginative. It is you who totally reinterprets Numbers 15 from what it simply says to come up with a very imaginative tale that has no bearing on what God wrote!

Sorry, but we don't need some mystical decoder ring to understand what God wrote!

 

[face2face]

2 Peter 2:9-12 KJV
9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Two types are named here, these false teachers, who are not afraid to speak evil of dignitities, while the angels know better, even being mightier.

Much love!

Re 2 Peter 2:12 The false teachers could conceivably be men or women, but in 2 Peter 2:14 they are said to have eyes “full of an adulteress.” This can only refer to men. Hence, both here and in 2 Peter 2:17 the false teachers are described as “men.”

Peter closed the door by indicating they were habitual sinners, their eyes consistently looking toward sinning. With eyes full of adultery is literally, “having eyes full of an adulteress,” that is, thinking only of adultery when they see women. They never stop sinning is literally, “unceasing in sin,” probably referring to their sinning with their eyes (Matthew 5:28).

F2F

 

[marks]

Re 2 Peter 2:12 The false teachers could conceivably be men or women, but in 2 Peter 2:14 they are said to have eyes “full of an adulteress.” This can only refer to men. Hence, both here and in 2 Peter 2:17 the false teachers are described as “men.”

F2F

Not the false teachers . . . the messengers. Maybe revisit my post?

False teachers speak evil against dignities. Messengers do not. This is the context telling us about the content. The messengers and the false teachers are not the same. They behave differently.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

I think you are referring to yourself as imaginative. It is you who totally reinterprets Numbers 15 from what it simply says to come up with a very imaginative tale that has no bearing on what God wrote!

Sorry, but we don't need some mystical decoder ring to understand what God wrote!

Numbers 16 you mean?

 

[marks]

I think you are referring to yourself as imaginative. It is you who totally reinterprets Numbers 15 from what it simply says to come up with a very imaginative tale that has no bearing on what God wrote!

Sorry, but we don't need some mystical decoder ring to understand what God wrote!

I find the context of the passage clear and compelling. I don't find any contradictions with other passages, and I find other passages that support the context of this passage.

We don't need imagination, we need submission.

Much love!