Who can speak to the text?

[Taken]

Did you know the word for angels "aggelos" is also used of human messengers / agents
OP ^

Angels are spirits.
God IS Spirit.
Man IS Earthly and has a spirit.

God IS Supreme POWER.
Angels have great power.
Man has the least power.

God is called “an angel”.
God is called “a man”.

What God is “called” does not MAKE God “an angel”, or “a man”, but rather reveals “WHAT” strength of POWER God is ‘using’ to Effect His WILL.

Men are NOT angels. Angels are “messengers”. Holy Angels, give “messages” to mankind, according to Gods Word.
Ungodly Angels, give “messages” to mankind, according to “their will” of influencing mankind to Stand Against God.

Earthly men Also can give “messages” TO Earthly men.
A “godly” Earthly man, is a man, God is WITH, and such man, has Gods Power “WITH” the man, to give “godly” messages, TO Earthly men.
Earthly men “whom God is NOT WITH”, but yet “whom ungodly Angels ARE with”, can also give “messages” TO Earthly men, according to ungodly Angels.

Earthly men, reveal by their “given, spoken, shared” “messages”, by WHOSE “power” they are Acting, giving, speaking, sharing...
...themselves (ideas, philosophies, feelings, opinions)
...holy angels influence with them
...ungodly angels influence with them
...Gods influence WITH them
...Gods influence Power IN them

God IS God.
An Angel IS an Angel.
A man IS a man.

One may be called the other.
One may DO similar things as the other.
Yet one is Never the other.

 

[Taken]

Cooper, if you were to take me to a passage in Scripture that taught the traditional view of Satan, being a fallen angel, where in the OT would you take me?

Luke 10:
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Curtis]

Not, but do read the 5 pages of posts to discover why the high activity here over the past few days. Post #17 currently stands as one more plausible interpretation of 2 Peter 2:4. Angels can't sin or fall but humans sure do!

Jesus says hell was created for Satan and his angels, plus Satan is a fallen angel, plus scripture says the angels who sinned by leaving their first estate are in chains in hell, and a third of the angels fell in revelation.

I don’t know what bible you’re using, but mine makes clear that angels can, and did, sin.

 

[face2face]

Luke 10:
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Glory to God,
Taken

Okay lets look at Luke 10:18

Lets preface this consideration @Taken by stating we need to understand what is being said and where it is being said i.e the context and meaning of the verse.

Would you firstly agree the context is in Luke 10:17 which indicates that the casting out of demons and not the fall of a rebel angel is the subject of reference?

Do you also agree that the context to these words is the returning of 70 disciples who had been preaching and healing people of illnesses?

If you can read verse 17 & 18 and agree with the above we can proceed.

 

[Cooper]

Cooper, if you were to take me to a passage in Scripture that taught the traditional view of Satan, being a fallen angel, where in the OT would you take me?

If the OT was allusive where in the NT would the story of this fallen angel be found along with God's warning of it?

What would you say is the most convincing Scriptural account?

Accuser (New Testament)

1. diabolos (G1228), "an accuser" (cf. ACCUSE, B, No. 1), is used 34 times as a title of Satan, the Devil (the English word is derived from the Greek); once of Judas, Joh_6:70, who, in his opposition to God, acted the part of the Devil. Apart from Joh_6:70, men are never spoken of as devils. It is always to be distinguished from daimon, "a demon." It is found three times, 1Ti_3:11; 2Ti_3:3; Tit_2:3, of false accusers, slanderers.

2. kategoros (G2725), "an accuser," is used in Joh_8:10; Act_23:30, Act_23:35; Act_24:8; Act_25:16, Act_25:18. In Rev_12:10, it is used of Satan. In the Sept., Pro_18:17.

Notes: (1) Sukophantia, "a false accusation or oppression," is used in Ecc_5:7; Ecc_7:8; Psa_119:134 and Amo_2:8 (not in the NT). See No. 5, above.

(2) Sukophantes, "a false accuser, or oppressor," occurs in Psa_72:4; Pro_28:16 (not in the NT).



Satan (Old Testament)

satan (H7854), "adversary; Satan." This word appears 24 times in the Old Testament. Most uses of the term relate to the cosmic struggle in the unseen world between God and the opposing forces of darkness.

In Psa_38:20, David cried out because he was the target of attack by his "adversaries." Possibly David suffered because of mistakes he made; and within the permissive will of God, He used David's enemies to discipline His servant.

In another psalm of distress by an individual, a godly man expressed his deep faith in the Lord. The writer prayed concerning those who were "adversaries" to his soul: "Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonor that seek my hurt" (Psa_71:13). He expressed the reality of the powers of darkness against an individual who sought to live for God.

Imprecatory psalms call for judgment upon one's enemies, reflecting the battle in the unseen world between darkness and light. David's enemies became his "adversaries," but he continued to pray for them (Psa_109:4). Because those enemies repaid him evil for good and hatred for his love, the king prayed: "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand" (Psa_109:6). When they spoke evil against his soul, David called for the Lord's reward against his "adversaries" (Psa_109:20), and finally, became David's accusers had intended him so much harm, he asked that his accusers be clothed with shame and dishonor (Psa_109:29). In all of these passages, God worked indirectly by permitting individuals to act as "adversaries" of His people.

In another instance, David was merciful with members of Saul's family who cursed him and wished him harm when he fled from Absalom (2Sa_16:5ff.). David restrained his army commanders from killing Saul's family who had repented of their misdeeds. The king did not want his officers to be his "adversaries" on the day of victory and joy (2Sa_19:22).

God can also be the "adversary." When Balaam went to curse the sons of Israel, God warned him not to do so. When the prophet persisted, God disciplined him: "And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him" (Num_22:22). God stood as an "adversary" because no curse could undo the covenants and agreements already made with Israel.

God took up a controversy with Solomon. When Solomon added more and more pagan wives to his harem, God was greatly displeased (Deu_17:17). But when the king built pagan shrines for his wives, God raised up "adversaries" against him(1Ki_11:14), a direct action which caused the Edomites and Syrians to revolt against Israel.

Another special instance of intervention was the occasion when "...Satan [literally, "an adversary"] stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (1Ch_21:1). (No definite article is here in Hebrew and, therefore, "an adversary" is in mind.) In a parallel passage the Lord moved David to number Israel and Judah (2Sa_24:1). Even as the Lord stirred up an "adversary" against Solomon, so here God took a direct action to test David to help him learn a vital lesson. God tests believers to help them make the right choices and not depend upon their own human strength.

In the Book of Job, the word Satan always has the definite article preceding it (Job_1:6-12; Job_2:1-7), so the term emphasizes Satan's role as "the adversary." God permitted Satan to test Job's faith, and the adversary inflicted the patriarch with many evils and sorrows. Satan was not all-powerful because he indicated that he could not get beyond God's protection of Job (Job_1:10). He penetrated the "hedge" only with God's permission and only for specific instances that would demonstrate God's righteousness. Job became the battleground between the forces of darkness and light. He learned that Satan could be defeated by making the right choices and that God can be glorified in every circumstance.

Zechariah recorded a vision of "...Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him" (literally, "be his adversary"; Zec_3:1). The Lord rebuked "the adversary" (Zec_3:2). Satan was once again in conflict with God's purposes and the angels of God, but "the adversary" was not all-powerful and was subject to rebuke by God Himself.

A general usage of satan ("adversary") appears in 1Ki_5:4 : "But now the Lord my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary or evil occurrent." In another instance, David went over to the side of the Philistines; in attempting to fight with them against Israel, some of the Philistine leaders doubted David's sincerity and felt that he would be "an adversary" in any battle between the two armies (1Sa_29:4).

In the Septuagint, the word is diabolos.

Source Vine Commentary

 

[face2face]

Accuser (New Testament)
1. diabolos (G1228), "an accuser" (cf. ACCUSE, B, No. 1), is used 34 times as a title of Satan, the Devil (the English word is derived from the Greek); once of Judas, Joh_6:70, who, in his opposition to God, acted the part of the Devil. Apart from Joh_6:70, men are never spoken of as devils. It is always to be distinguished from daimon, "a demon." It is found three times, 1Ti_3:11; 2Ti_3:3; Tit_2:3, of false accusers, slanderers.
2. kategoros (G2725), "an accuser," is used in Joh_8:10; Act_23:30, Act_23:35; Act_24:8; Act_25:16, Act_25:18. In Rev_12:10, it is used of Satan. In the Sept., Pro_18:17.
Notes: (1) Sukophantia, "a false accusation or oppression," is used in Ecc_5:7; Ecc_7:8; Psa_119:134 and Amo_2:8 (not in the NT). See No. 5, above.
(2) Sukophantes, "a false accuser, or oppressor," occurs in Psa_72:4; Pro_28:16 (not in the NT).

Satan (Old Testament)
satan (H7854), "adversary; Satan." This word appears 24 times in the Old Testament. Most uses of the term relate to the cosmic struggle in the unseen world between God and the opposing forces of darkness.
In Psa_38:20, David cried out because he was the target of attack by his "adversaries." Possibly David suffered because of mistakes he made; and within the permissive will of God, He used David's enemies to discipline His servant.
In another psalm of distress by an individual, a godly man expressed his deep faith in the Lord. The writer prayed concerning those who were "adversaries" to his soul: "Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonor that seek my hurt" (Psa_71:13). He expressed the reality of the powers of darkness against an individual who sought to live for God.
Imprecatory psalms call for judgment upon one's enemies, reflecting the battle in the unseen world between darkness and light. David's enemies became his "adversaries," but he continued to pray for them (Psa_109:4). Because those enemies repaid him evil for good and hatred for his love, the king prayed: "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand" (Psa_109:6). When they spoke evil against his soul, David called for the Lord's reward against his "adversaries" (Psa_109:20), and finally, became David's accusers had intended him so much harm, he asked that his accusers be clothed with shame and dishonor (Psa_109:29). In all of these passages, God worked indirectly by permitting individuals to act as "adversaries" of His people.
In another instance, David was merciful with members of Saul's family who cursed him and wished him harm when he fled from Absalom (2Sa_16:5ff.). David restrained his army commanders from killing Saul's family who had repented of their misdeeds. The king did not want his officers to be his "adversaries" on the day of victory and joy (2Sa_19:22).
God can also be the "adversary." When Balaam went to curse the sons of Israel, God warned him not to do so. When the prophet persisted, God disciplined him: "And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him" (Num_22:22). God stood as an "adversary" because no curse could undo the covenants and agreements already made with Israel.
God took up a controversy with Solomon. When Solomon added more and more pagan wives to his harem, God was greatly displeased (Deu_17:17). But when the king built pagan shrines for his wives, God raised up "adversaries" against him(1Ki_11:14), a direct action which caused the Edomites and Syrians to revolt against Israel.
Another special instance of intervention was the occasion when "...Satan [literally, "an adversary"] stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (1Ch_21:1). (No definite article is here in Hebrew and, therefore, "an adversary" is in mind.) In a parallel passage the Lord moved David to number Israel and Judah (2Sa_24:1). Even as the Lord stirred up an "adversary" against Solomon, so here God took a direct action to test David to help him learn a vital lesson. God tests believers to help them make the right choices and not depend upon their own human strength.
In the Book of Job, the word Satan always has the definite article preceding it (Job_1:6-12; Job_2:1-7), so the term emphasizes Satan's role as "the adversary." God permitted Satan to test Job's faith, and the adversary inflicted the patriarch with many evils and sorrows. Satan was not all-powerful because he indicated that he could not get beyond God's protection of Job (Job_1:10). He penetrated the "hedge" only with God's permission and only for specific instances that would demonstrate God's righteousness. Job became the battleground between the forces of darkness and light. He learned that Satan could be defeated by making the right choices and that God can be glorified in every circumstance.
Zechariah recorded a vision of "...Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him" (literally, "be his adversary"; Zec_3:1). The Lord rebuked "the adversary" (Zec_3:2). Satan was once again in conflict with God's purposes and the angels of God, but "the adversary" was not all-powerful and was subject to rebuke by God Himself.
A general usage of satan ("adversary") appears in 1Ki_5:4 : "But now the Lord my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary or evil occurrent." In another instance, David went over to the side of the Philistines; in attempting to fight with them against Israel, some of the Philistine leaders doubted David's sincerity and felt that he would be "an adversary" in any battle between the two armies (1Sa_29:4).
In the Septuagint, the word is diabolos.
(Source Vine Commentry)

Sorry the screen dumps are overwhelming and to be honest reading someone else's opinions doesn't do it for me.
And I asked for an OT account which clearly isn't provided. Nice to see you have the meaning of false accuser there which will put you in good stead for future discussions.

I'll go with Takens verse for now so we dont have too many conversations going.

Thanks
F2F

 

[face2face]

Jesus says hell was created for Satan and his angels, plus Satan is a fallen angel, plus scripture says the angels who sinned by leaving their first estate are in chains in hell, and a third of the angels fell in revelation.

I don’t know what bible you’re using, but mine makes clear that angels can, and did, sin.

All those things you have said are true...the only difference is the meaning you attach to them. Same Bible - I use the NET, ESV, KGV, NKJV and others depending on the application.

 

[Cooper]

Sorry the screen dumps are overwhelming and to be honest reading someone else's opinions doesn't do it for me.
And I asked for an OT account which clearly isn't provided. Nice to see you have the meaning of false accuser there which will put you in good stead for future discussions.

I'll go with Takens verse for now so we dont have too many conversations going.

Thanks
F2F

You did ask. There are scripture references a plenty, and the Bible is the source, not man.

By the way, just to clear up a possible misunderstanding, I have always said "OSAS - IS false teaching." I have Taken on ignore, so did not see it.

Cheers.
.

 

[face2face]

You did ask. There are scripture references a plenty, and the Bible is the source, not man.

Dumping a pile of references and thinking that states something about the subject is rather foolish. I asked for one OT passage that provides us the story of this cast out angel, and you believe a plethora of unrelated references will suffice?

 

[Cooper]

Dumping a pile of references and thinking that states something about the subject is rather foolish. I asked for one OT passage that provides us the story of this cast out angel, and you believe a plethora of unrelated references will suffice?

The Jewish Encyclopedia is a good source. Also Job for the OT.

SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com
.

 

[Taken]

Okay lets look at Luke 10:18

Lets preface this consideration @Taken by stating we need to understand what is being said and where it is being said i.e the context and meaning of the verse.

Would you firstly agree the context is in Luke 10:17 which indicates that the casting out of demons and not the fall of a rebel angel is the subject of reference?

Do you also agree that the context to these words is the returning of 70 disciples who had been preaching and healing people of illnesses?

If you can read verse 17 & 18 and agree with the above we can proceed.

You requested a Scripture in reference to Satan being a fallen angel.
I gave you One Scripture. If that ... Satan being a fallen angel be your interest, Other Scriptural Passages speak to that point.

Scripture is divided into Books, Chapters, Verses, FOR ease of reading and referencing.

Every Book, Chapter, and often Verses, speak TO and ABOUT complete opposites....multiple subjects.

All angels were created Holy, their estate IS Heaven. They have Freewill. They are given tasks, holy word of Gods messages, to deliver to Earthly men.

When a Holy Angel, exercises their Freewill, to think, to perform a task, to espouse a message, to influence an Earthly man, Which IS in opposition of Gods holy Word...They are not “corrected”, They are “banished” From Gods Presence. Cast OUT of Gods Heavenly Kingdom. Expressly Cast “DOWN” to Earth. And Some Holy Angels while ON Earth, WHO, exercised their Freewill in a manner, AGAINST God, were Cast “DOWN” to Hell, “Banished” From mankind’s Presence.

An Angel being Created holy, and Freewill to Fall Away from their “holiness”, and Separated FROM God are routinely mentioned in Scriptures, AS a notice to mankind....(WHO was “merely” created “good” “NOT HOLY”)...
* Revealing SEPARATION from God ... can happen, to a good man, and EVEN a “holy” angel.

Mention of THAT ^ is simply Notice. Keep that in remembrance, While the Context of the teaching is Speaking to Specific men... ie disciples, returning disciples, Gentiles, Jews, whatever.

The Specific teaching, routinely is of “reminders”, of what “Holy Angels” freely chose, of what “men” freely chose....(via their Freewill)....and the Result...

The Specific teaching, routinely is of “Expressly”, revealing the “FREEWILL” choices of Holy Angels and Men....TO “continue” to Rely ON THEIR OWN POWER.

Holy Angels & Men...can choose to stand AGAINST God, and become Separated from God.

Holy Angels & Men...can choose to STAND WITH God, and BE WITH God.
....the Notice hangs ON POWER. A Holy Angel, depending on his own Power to BE WITH God, is “risky”. A Man, depending on his own Power to BE WITH God, is “risky”.
...IT IS “risky”, BECAUSE...24-7 EVIL lurks, to Convince a Holy Angel, A man, to Consider “other” “cunningly proposed options tickling the ears with sweet sounds.”

IT IS “repeated” reminder of even HOLY angels can fall, men can fall...UNTIL a man, exercises his Freewill, FOR GODS POWER TO KEEP him FROM Falling away.... ie OSAS...IS the Express acronym, applicable to a man WHO has accepted Jesus’ Offering, FOR the POWER OF GOD (which supersedes the power of an Angel, the power of a man)...to BE ... not only “WITH” a man...
BUT...”IN” the man.

THUS is accomplished “IN” such a man...
Greater is He that IS IN you, than he that is IN the World.
Gods Promise TO KEEP that man FOREVER “with” God, BY Gods Word and Power.

IF ^ THAT applies to a man...the Warning about Holy Angels falling away, and Separation from God, or men falling away, and Separation from God...
IS MOOT.

IF ^ (Gods Power in a man)...does not apply to a man...the Warning about Holy Angels falling away, and men falling away....(who HAVE NOT Gods POWER “IN” them), then that warning would apply.

Scripture while ALL TRUE, does not APPLY the same to ALL men, or ALL Angels.

Disciples “returning” has no application to me. No effect on me.
Fallen “angels” has no application to me. No effect on me.
Men “without” Gods Power “IN” them has no application to me. No effect on me.

 

[face2face]

You requested a Scripture in reference to Satan being a fallen angel.
I gave you One Scripture. If that ... Satan being a fallen angel be your interest, Other Scriptural Passages speak to that point.

I will put the questions before you once more...

Would you agree the context is in Luke 10:17 which indicates that the casting out of demons and not the fall of a rebel angel is the subject of reference?

Do you also agree that the context to these words is the returning of 70 disciples who had been preaching and healing people of illnesses?

If you can read verse 17 & 18 and agree with the above we can proceed.

 

[Taken]

I will put the questions before you once more...

Would you agree the context is in Luke 10:17 which indicates that the casting out of demons and not the fall of a rebel angel is the subject of reference?

Do you also agree that the context to these words is the returning of 70 disciples who had been preaching and healing people of illnesses?

If you can read verse 17 & 18 and agree with the above we can proceed.

Luke 10:
[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The fall of an Angel, Satan IS A Reference.
Fallen Angels (demons) power having over powered men IS Knowledge.
Disciples speaking commands to Fallen (demon) Angels (that they Depart from men), Speaking such Commands With And In the Power of Jesus’ NAME...was being revealed as a Joy of the Commanding men.

If you are familiar with Scripture, Satan is Referenced AS The Devil and other angels that follow Satan are referenced as devils.
Devils Are Angels that Stood Against God and Fell from Holiness.

The Scripture in question is men Observing By the Power of Jesus’ NAME ... devils being Separated from men, in a similar fashion Satan was Separated from God, ie. Gods Power.

It’s such a simple concept. I do not find what your fixation is or what you are trying to prove...other than your opening statement...that Angels can not Sin, which is ludicrous.

 

[marks]

Peter uses the term false prophets and false teachers in 2 Peter 2:1 by way of defining the type of false authority being claimed. There is a difference between one who claims they have visions from God (prophet) opposed to those who see themselves as teachers.

In 2 Peter 2:2 Peter bundles these two together by calling them "false teachers", because that is what both groups do - teach falsely.

He then goes on to provide OT examples of "false teachers" ie 2 Peter 2: 4 & Number 16 having set the context in 2 Peter 2:1

What he doesn't do is go off script to some fallen divine angel story which is not found anywhere in the Bible. No, he stays on script by introducing:

1. Numbers 16 - 2 Peter 2:4 (Left their first estate)
2. Gen 6 - 2 Peter 2:5 (ungodly world)
3. Gen 19 - 2 Peter 2:7 (lawless men)

So only Human Messengers are the subject matter for 2 Peter 2 - There is nowhere found in 2 Peter 2 that speaks to divine angels falling or rebelling in Heaven.

Hope that makes sense.

I'm sorry, that doesn't really make sense to me, I don't understand your answer.

Show me the Scriptures which show this equivalency.

More than just saying some OT people were called aggelos. Where was that? Show the passages. Not a reference, quote it, point to the place, and show how it impacts what Peter and Jude wrote.

So far, all I'm really seeing here is, "Angels can't sin, therefore these can't be angels. See, here is where angel means a person!"

I already know that the word is applied to both, context tells us which is meant. This context clearly delineates between the angels and the human teachers or prophets.

Much love!

 

[marks]

They were "aggeloi" (angels) since their office was to "minister" to the congregation. (see Numbers 16:9).

Show the passage, and point to the place which leads us to come to a different understanding of Peter's letter.

Aggeloi is of course Greek, while the OT there is Hebrew.

Their "first estate" or "principality" (2 Peter 2:4 Jude 1:6) was the "princes" or "leaders" (see Numbers 16:2).

Show the passages, make your case.

Same with the rest.

You make a number of assertions, you list Scripture references, but I'm not seeing a cohesive argument presented.

Show the verses, point to those words and phrases you base your interpretations on, I'm interested, that's why I'm responding. But I'm looking for a little more clarity from you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Their "first estate" or "principality" (2 Peter 2:4 Jude 1:6) was the "princes" or "leaders" (see Numbers 16:2).

Gk “who did not keep their own domain.”

Numbers 16:2 and rebelled against Moses, along with some of the Israelites, 250 leaders of the community, chosen from the assembly, famous men.

Talk to me about "oiketerion", our celestial body. The angels left their oiketerion.

Much love!

 

[marks]

16:10 He has brought you near and all your brothers, the sons of Levi, with you. Do you now seek the priesthood also?

They were not happy to remain in their allotted position in the body of Israel, so sought to usurp Moses and Aaron and take the leadership to themselves.

The earth opened and swallowed them and their families whole.

I don't understand how this tells us something about Peter's letter. Can you elaborate?

Much love!

 

[marks]

@face2face ,

If at the center of your interpretation is the supposition that angels cannot sin, I'd also point to this passage:

Isaiah 24:17-23 KJV
17) Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18) And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22) And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23) Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

The host of the high ones on high = celestial beings
The kings of the earth upon the earth = terestrial beings

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Its not some idea Ronald...read Post #17 its all based on Scripture and the context of 2 Peter 2 is screaming at you to take a re-look.

Well for your sake I took a 3rd relook- there is no screaming. You have simply redefined wordsa to allegorize a passage of Scripture to fit some idea that was planted in your head.

Once again here are your errors.

1. If the 250 princes were angels, then the word "malak" would have been used! It wasn't.
2. Estate is a principality which speaks of geography and not position.
3. habitation is also a geographic and not position term.
4. chains of darkness is simply you just forcing it into the text.

At least in responses to me you have yet to address teh fact that Genesis 6 the bene elohim are angels or spirit beings. You also ignore that the union of these bene elohim are the nephilim and were the gibbor or valiant brave warriors who were men of reknown.

Nor have you addressed the fact that 2 Peter 2 in context and as written by God speaks of three events in order:

1 The angels that sinned
2 then the flood
3. then sodom and gommorah

This acceptance of Scripture as written doe not require a reinterpretation of passages and words and events as your explanation does. I think you need to take a relook at the passages and understand that the sons of korah and the 250 were no greater sinners than other sinners. They are not kept in everlasting chains. they are like all other lost- in the place of torments.

Also these 250, their roles as princes of the people was not their first estate if you wish to use estate as a position. It was their last estate before their sin. their first estate was simply fellow Jews.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, not at all.

Much love!

Good! I asked because to me the phrasing wasn't sure. so instead of accusing, I sought your answer. Thanks for clearing it up for me.