Divinity of Jesus Christ!

[theefaith]

Apak you may reply to #35

 

[amadeus]

the divinity of Christ and the trinity are Christian doctrine, would you say those who deny them are not Christians?...

Whose doctrine? Every church group has its own doctrines. Perhaps every person who differs even slightly from others in his beliefs has his own doctrines.

As to being a Christian, must a person believe in the Trinity to be a follower of Christ, the Messiah?

Christian: [used in Acts 26:28]

Cristianovß Christianos (khris-tee-an-os');
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 5546

1. Christian, a follower of Christ

 

[BarneyFife]

That is exactly right. Jesus of Nazareth was and is GOD MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.
God who became Man in order to die for our sins. Anyone who denies this is treading on thin ice.

I really struggle with this. If pressed, I would have to say that I am a staunch trinitarian. But for some reason I don't entirely understand, I can't get behind condemning those who are of a different mind.

I also don't understand all the nuances of non-trinitarian doctrines. I hear tell that there is a difference between the way the Catholic church perceives the Trinity and the way orthodox (for lack of a better term) Protestants understand it. It seems complicated. Some claim that the Catholic church holds almost a polytheistic view of the Trinity, with Mary entering into the equation (a virtual Quadrinity, perhaps).

 

[amadeus]

I really struggle with this. If pressed, I would have to say that I am a staunch trinitarian. But for some reason I don't entirely understand, I can't get behind condemning those who are of a different mind.

I also don't understand all the nuances of non-trinitarian doctrines...

This is why I can call you my brother easily even though I am unable to embrace the Trinity! We do not live by knowledge alone nor by the logic of men alone. That is for certain. What do we hope for? What do we see?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

 

[theefaith]

Whose doctrine? Every church group has its own doctrines. Perhaps every person who differs even slightly from others in his beliefs has his own doctrines.

As to being a Christian, must a person believe in the Trinity to be a follower of Christ, the Messiah?

Christian: [used in Acts 26:28]

Cristianovß Christianos (khris-tee-an-os');
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 5546

1. Christian, a follower of Christ

truth or doctrine is revealed by God thru Christ and taught by His one true church!

 

[theefaith]

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

 

[tigger 2]

@APAK i am well aware that your little cult has a little pamphlet 'should you believe the trinity'

it reads:

“Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the pre-human Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the ‘One true and only God,’ who is ‘supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other.'”

this is a boldfaced lie. have you read Iranaeus?

Therefore, by remitting sins, He did indeed heal man, while He also manifested Himself who He was. For if no one can forgive sins but God alone, while the Lord remitted them and healed men, it is plain that He was Himself the Word of God made the Son of man, receiving from the Father the power of remission of sins; since He was man, and since He was God, in order that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us, and forgive us our debts, in which we were made debtors to God our Creator.

- Iranaeus, 'Against Heresies' book V ch. 17​

....

............................................................
First, it is Irenaeus, not Iranaeus.

Second, the existing manuscript has been modified by trinitarian copyists through the centuries who (if they wished to keep their heads) would never add non-trinitarian passages to their copies!

Third, notice the following non-trinitarian quotes from Against Heresies:

“The Church ... [believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit ...” (1:330, Ante-Nicene Fathers [ANF], by the trinitarian Rev. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Eerdmans Publ..)
* * * *
“... neither the prophets, nor the apostles, nor the Lord Christ in His own person, did acknowledge any other Lord or God, but the God and Lord supreme .... the Lord Himself handing down to His disciples, that He, the Father, is the only God and Lord, who alone is God and ruler of all; it is incumbent on us to follow ... their testimonies to this effect.” (ANF, 1:422, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“Such, then, are the first principles of the Gospel: that there is one God, the Maker of this universe; He who was also announced by the prophets ... which proclaim the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ignore any other God or Father except Him.” (ANF, 1:428, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“And that the whole range of the doctrine of the Apostles proclaimed one and the same God ... That He was the Maker of all things, that He was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the God of glory, - they who wish may learn from the very words and acts of the Apostles, and may contemplate the fact that God is one, above whom is no other.” (ANF, 1:434, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“Those, therefore, who delivered up their souls to death for Christ's Gospel .... To the Jews {who already knew the one true God of the Bible, Jehovah, the Father}, indeed, [they proclaimed] that the Jesus who was crucified by them was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, and that He has received from His Father an eternal kingdom in Israel, as I have pointed out; but to the Greeks {who did NOT yet know the one true God of the Bible} they preached one God who made all things, and, Jesus Christ His Son.” (ANF, 1:435, ‘Against Heresies’) Material within special brackets { } supplied by me.
* * * *
Notice that Irenaeus, above, teaches us that the very first Christians did not teach a new understanding of God to the Jews. Why? Because they already knew the God of the Bible was the Father. But to the Greeks, who did not know the God of the Bible, they also had to teach that the one God is the Father!

“For faith, which has respect to our Master, endures unchangeably, assuring us that there is but one true God, and that we should truly love Him for ever, seeing that He alone is our Father.” (ANF, 1:399-400, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“If, for instance, anyone asks, ‘what was God doing before He made the world?’ we reply that the answer to such a question .... remains with God, and it is not proper for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it] .... For consider all ye who invent such opinions, since the Father Himself is alone called God ... since, moreover, the Scriptures acknowledge Him alone as God” - (ANF, 1:400, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“... no one is termed God by the Apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord.” - (ANF, 1:553, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“ ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,’ and all other things in succession; .... Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying] ‘There is one God, the Father, who is above all {Eph. 4:6; cf. 1 Cor. 8:6}, …’ ” - (ANF, 1:362)
* * * *
“It is easy to prove from the very words of the Lord [Jesus], that he acknowledges one Father and Creator of the world, and Fashioner of man ... and that this One is God over all” - (ANF, 1:370)

Like most, if not all, Ante-Nicene Fathers Irenaeus taught that “Wisdom” speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Word. In fact, the very trinitarian writers of ANF admit also:
Prov. viii 22-25. This is one of the favourite Messianic quotations of the Fathers, and is considered as the base of the first chapter of St. John’s Gospel. - ANF 1:488, f.n. #10.
Here, then, is what Irenaeus taught about the Son of God, Wisdom, the Word, speaking at Prov. 8:22-25:
‘The Lord {“Jehovah” in original Hebrew manuscripts} created me the beginning of His ways in His work ... before all the hills, He brought me forth ... when He made the foundations of the earth strong, I was with Him preparing [them].’ .... There is therefore one God, who by {through} the Word and Wisdom created and arranged all {other} things. - ANF 1:488.

Only fragments of manuscripts containing the ancient Greek remain. Irenaeus’ “Against Heresies” exists today in full only in a single Latin translation from the original Greek language. It is thus not surprising that trinitarian-supporting “evidence” may be found in the single trinitarian-recopied, trinitarian-translated, trinitarian-redefined manuscript available today. But certainly this respected early Christian writer whom today's trinitarian scholars “credit” with the very “formulation” of the trinity doctrine would not have made the many clear non-trinitarian statements recorded above if he had really believed in or taught a trinity (or “Binity”)! Obviously the many trinitarians who handled (and mishandled) Irenaeus’ writing down through the centuries could (and did) change some non-trinitarian thoughts into trinitarian thoughts.* But they would certainly never change trinitarian thoughts into non-trinitarian thoughts. Therefore, those many non-trinitarian concepts still remaining must be Irenaeus’ original teaching!
______________
* The very trinitarian translators of ANF wrote in their Introductory Note to Irenaeus’ Against Heresies: “The text [of Against Heresies] ... is often most uncertain. .... After the text has been settled according to the best judgment [trinitarian, of course] which can be formed, the work of translation remains; and that is, in this case, a matter of no small difficulty. Irenaeus, even in the original Greek, is often a very obscure writer. .... And the Latin version adds to these difficulties of the original, by being itself of the most barbarous character. In fact, it is often necessary to make a conjectural retranslation [trinitarian, of course] into Greek, in order to have some inkling of what the author wrote. .... We have endeavoured to give as close and accurate a translation of the work as possible, but there are not a few passages in which a guess [trinitarian, of course] can only be made as to the probable meaning.” - ANF 1:311-312.

Obviously, if a trinitarian, even a scrupulously honest trinitarian, makes a “conjectural retranslation” or a “guess ... as to the probable meaning,” it will be a trinitarian guess or “conjectural retranslation”!

You asked, "this is a boldfaced lie. have you read Iranaeus?" Yes, I have. See above.
So who is really making a "boldfaced Lie."?

 

[David in NJ]

.
The Greek noun translated "Word" in John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 basically
refers to spoken words in contrast to unspoken words, i.e. speech vs
thoughts.

That being the case, then I can legitimately paraphrase John 1:3 like this;

"All things were made by God's voice; and without His voice was not any
thing made that was made."

For example Genesis 1:6 where we can observe the power of God's voice in
action; making things.

"And God said: Let there be an expanse . . . .

So then; I can legitimately paraphrase John 1:14 like this;

"God's voice became flesh, and by His voice God made His dwelling among
us."

There are elements of Christianity that defy reason and logic and make no
sense to me whatsoever: God's voice is one of them. I can easily understand
how a person can be a sentient being, but I cannot at all understand how
someone's voice can be a sentient being when to me a person's voice is just
sounds and syllables; but Jesus said that God's voice is active.

• John 6:63 . .The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
_

John wrote his Gospel thru the Anointing of Holy Spirit revelation.

Thus the Apostle John understood Who the Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness in fact ARE.

ALL THREE were present from the Beginning - Father Son Holy Spirit

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. - Genesis 1:1-3

 

[amadeus]

truth or doctrine is revealed by God thru Christ and taught by His one true church!

Perhaps the Holy Ghost is involved...?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What is the purpose of the quickening of the Spirit?

 

[David in NJ]

............................................................
First, it is Irenaeus, not Iranaeus.

Second, the existing manuscript has been modified by trinitarian copyists through the centuries who (if they wished to keep their heads) would never add non-trinitarian passages to their copies!

Third, notice the following non-trinitarian quotes from Against Heresies:

“The Church ... [believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit ...” (1:330, Ante-Nicene Fathers [ANF], by the trinitarian Rev. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Eerdmans Publ..)
* * * *
“... neither the prophets, nor the apostles, nor the Lord Christ in His own person, did acknowledge any other Lord or God, but the God and Lord supreme .... the Lord Himself handing down to His disciples, that He, the Father, is the only God and Lord, who alone is God and ruler of all; it is incumbent on us to follow ... their testimonies to this effect.” (ANF, 1:422, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“Such, then, are the first principles of the Gospel: that there is one God, the Maker of this universe; He who was also announced by the prophets ... which proclaim the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ignore any other God or Father except Him.” (ANF, 1:428, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“And that the whole range of the doctrine of the Apostles proclaimed one and the same God ... That He was the Maker of all things, that He was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the God of glory, - they who wish may learn from the very words and acts of the Apostles, and may contemplate the fact that God is one, above whom is no other.” (ANF, 1:434, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“Those, therefore, who delivered up their souls to death for Christ's Gospel .... To the Jews {who already knew the one true God of the Bible, Jehovah, the Father}, indeed, [they proclaimed] that the Jesus who was crucified by them was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, and that He has received from His Father an eternal kingdom in Israel, as I have pointed out; but to the Greeks {who did NOT yet know the one true God of the Bible} they preached one God who made all things, and, Jesus Christ His Son.” (ANF, 1:435, ‘Against Heresies’) Material within special brackets { } supplied by me.
* * * *
Notice that Irenaeus, above, teaches us that the very first Christians did not teach a new understanding of God to the Jews. Why? Because they already knew the God of the Bible was the Father. But to the Greeks, who did not know the God of the Bible, they also had to teach that the one God is the Father!

“For faith, which has respect to our Master, endures unchangeably, assuring us that there is but one true God, and that we should truly love Him for ever, seeing that He alone is our Father.” (ANF, 1:399-400, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“If, for instance, anyone asks, ‘what was God doing before He made the world?’ we reply that the answer to such a question .... remains with God, and it is not proper for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it] .... For consider all ye who invent such opinions, since the Father Himself is alone called God ... since, moreover, the Scriptures acknowledge Him alone as God” - (ANF, 1:400, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“... no one is termed God by the Apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord.” - (ANF, 1:553, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“ ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,’ and all other things in succession; .... Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying] ‘There is one God, the Father, who is above all {Eph. 4:6; cf. 1 Cor. 8:6}, …’ ” - (ANF, 1:362)
* * * *
“It is easy to prove from the very words of the Lord [Jesus], that he acknowledges one Father and Creator of the world, and Fashioner of man ... and that this One is God over all” - (ANF, 1:370)

Like most, if not all, Ante-Nicene Fathers Irenaeus taught that “Wisdom” speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Word. In fact, the very trinitarian writers of ANF admit also:
Prov. viii 22-25. This is one of the favourite Messianic quotations of the Fathers, and is considered as the base of the first chapter of St. John’s Gospel. - ANF 1:488, f.n. #10.
Here, then, is what Irenaeus taught about the Son of God, Wisdom, the Word, speaking at Prov. 8:22-25:
‘The Lord {“Jehovah” in original Hebrew manuscripts} created me the beginning of His ways in His work ... before all the hills, He brought me forth ... when He made the foundations of the earth strong, I was with Him preparing [them].’ .... There is therefore one God, who by {through} the Word and Wisdom created and arranged all {other} things. - ANF 1:488.

Only fragments of manuscripts containing the ancient Greek remain. Irenaeus’ “Against Heresies” exists today in full only in a single Latin translation from the original Greek language. It is thus not surprising that trinitarian-supporting “evidence” may be found in the single trinitarian-recopied, trinitarian-translated, trinitarian-redefined manuscript available today. But certainly this respected early Christian writer whom today's trinitarian scholars “credit” with the very “formulation” of the trinity doctrine would not have made the many clear non-trinitarian statements recorded above if he had really believed in or taught a trinity (or “Binity”)! Obviously the many trinitarians who handled (and mishandled) Irenaeus’ writing down through the centuries could (and did) change some non-trinitarian thoughts into trinitarian thoughts.* But they would certainly never change trinitarian thoughts into non-trinitarian thoughts. Therefore, those many non-trinitarian concepts still remaining must be Irenaeus’ original teaching!
______________
* The very trinitarian translators of ANF wrote in their Introductory Note to Irenaeus’ Against Heresies: “The text [of Against Heresies] ... is often most uncertain. .... After the text has been settled according to the best judgment [trinitarian, of course] which can be formed, the work of translation remains; and that is, in this case, a matter of no small difficulty. Irenaeus, even in the original Greek, is often a very obscure writer. .... And the Latin version adds to these difficulties of the original, by being itself of the most barbarous character. In fact, it is often necessary to make a conjectural retranslation [trinitarian, of course] into Greek, in order to have some inkling of what the author wrote. .... We have endeavoured to give as close and accurate a translation of the work as possible, but there are not a few passages in which a guess [trinitarian, of course] can only be made as to the probable meaning.” - ANF 1:311-312.

Obviously, if a trinitarian, even a scrupulously honest trinitarian, makes a “conjectural retranslation” or a “guess ... as to the probable meaning,” it will be a trinitarian guess or “conjectural retranslation”!

The only Truth that is Eternal is Elohim Abraham Elohim Isaac and Elohim Jacob

All who oppose this oppose Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit

All who oppose this are unlearned/confused in the Scripture and/or without the Holy Spirit.

Religion will do that to anyone and everyone.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

 

[Enoch111]

the divinity of Christ and the trinity are Christian doctrine, would you say those who deny them are not Christians?

I believe that would be a fair assessment. They will call themselves Christians, but Christians believe that it was God as sinless Man who died for their sins. There was no other way. No man and no angel could ever be the Savior and Redeemer of the world: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and His Redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)

 

[David in NJ]

I believe that would be a fair assessment. They will call themselves Christians, but Christians believe that it was God as sinless Man who died for their sins. There was no other way. No man and no angel could ever be the Savior and Redeemer of the world: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and His Redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)

AGREE - Isaiah/Genesis/Exodus/Scripture declares that the LORD is the same LORD Jesus Christ = the Word that was God in the Beginning.

 

[Enoch111]

What is the purpose of the quickening of the Spirit?

"Quickening" means bringing the dead to life. The spirits of all natural men are dead, even though their souls are alive. So when a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he or she receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit supernaturally regenerates this person, and then his or her spirit is brought to life. That is also where the Holy Spirit dwells. It is only when the spirit is alive that one can communicate with God who is Spirit. And the communication is through the Son and by the Holy Spirit. This is the essence of prayer.

 

[amadeus]

"Quickening" means bringing the dead to life. The spirits of all natural men are dead, even though their souls are alive. So when a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he or she receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit supernaturally regenerates this person, and then his or her spirit is brought to life. That is also where the Holy Spirit dwells. It is only when the spirit is alive that one can communicate with God who is Spirit. And the communication is through the Son and by the Holy Spirit. This is the essence of prayer.

Thanks, but I really did put this question to @theefaith to hopefully get some input from him other than a standard set-in concrete CC answer.

 

[post]

............................................................
First, it is Irenaeus, not Iranaeus.

Second, the existing manuscript has been modified by trinitarian copyists through the centuries who (if they wished to keep their heads) would never add non-trinitarian passages to their copies!

Third, notice the following non-trinitarian quotes from Against Heresies:

“The Church ... [believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit ...” (1:330, Ante-Nicene Fathers [ANF], by the trinitarian Rev. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Eerdmans Publ..)
* * * *
“... neither the prophets, nor the apostles, nor the Lord Christ in His own person, did acknowledge any other Lord or God, but the God and Lord supreme .... the Lord Himself handing down to His disciples, that He, the Father, is the only God and Lord, who alone is God and ruler of all; it is incumbent on us to follow ... their testimonies to this effect.” (ANF, 1:422, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“Such, then, are the first principles of the Gospel: that there is one God, the Maker of this universe; He who was also announced by the prophets ... which proclaim the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ignore any other God or Father except Him.” (ANF, 1:428, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“And that the whole range of the doctrine of the Apostles proclaimed one and the same God ... That He was the Maker of all things, that He was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the God of glory, - they who wish may learn from the very words and acts of the Apostles, and may contemplate the fact that God is one, above whom is no other.” (ANF, 1:434, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“Those, therefore, who delivered up their souls to death for Christ's Gospel .... To the Jews {who already knew the one true God of the Bible, Jehovah, the Father}, indeed, [they proclaimed] that the Jesus who was crucified by them was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, and that He has received from His Father an eternal kingdom in Israel, as I have pointed out; but to the Greeks {who did NOT yet know the one true God of the Bible} they preached one God who made all things, and, Jesus Christ His Son.” (ANF, 1:435, ‘Against Heresies’) Material within special brackets { } supplied by me.
* * * *
Notice that Irenaeus, above, teaches us that the very first Christians did not teach a new understanding of God to the Jews. Why? Because they already knew the God of the Bible was the Father. But to the Greeks, who did not know the God of the Bible, they also had to teach that the one God is the Father!

“For faith, which has respect to our Master, endures unchangeably, assuring us that there is but one true God, and that we should truly love Him for ever, seeing that He alone is our Father.” (ANF, 1:399-400, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“If, for instance, anyone asks, ‘what was God doing before He made the world?’ we reply that the answer to such a question .... remains with God, and it is not proper for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it] .... For consider all ye who invent such opinions, since the Father Himself is alone called God ... since, moreover, the Scriptures acknowledge Him alone as God” - (ANF, 1:400, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“... no one is termed God by the Apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord.” - (ANF, 1:553, ‘Against Heresies’)
* * * *
“ ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,’ and all other things in succession; .... Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying] ‘There is one God, the Father, who is above all {Eph. 4:6; cf. 1 Cor. 8:6}, …’ ” - (ANF, 1:362)
* * * *
“It is easy to prove from the very words of the Lord [Jesus], that he acknowledges one Father and Creator of the world, and Fashioner of man ... and that this One is God over all” - (ANF, 1:370)

Like most, if not all, Ante-Nicene Fathers Irenaeus taught that “Wisdom” speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Word. In fact, the very trinitarian writers of ANF admit also:
Prov. viii 22-25. This is one of the favourite Messianic quotations of the Fathers, and is considered as the base of the first chapter of St. John’s Gospel. - ANF 1:488, f.n. #10.
Here, then, is what Irenaeus taught about the Son of God, Wisdom, the Word, speaking at Prov. 8:22-25:
‘The Lord {“Jehovah” in original Hebrew manuscripts} created me the beginning of His ways in His work ... before all the hills, He brought me forth ... when He made the foundations of the earth strong, I was with Him preparing [them].’ .... There is therefore one God, who by {through} the Word and Wisdom created and arranged all {other} things. - ANF 1:488.

Only fragments of manuscripts containing the ancient Greek remain. Irenaeus’ “Against Heresies” exists today in full only in a single Latin translation from the original Greek language. It is thus not surprising that trinitarian-supporting “evidence” may be found in the single trinitarian-recopied, trinitarian-translated, trinitarian-redefined manuscript available today. But certainly this respected early Christian writer whom today's trinitarian scholars “credit” with the very “formulation” of the trinity doctrine would not have made the many clear non-trinitarian statements recorded above if he had really believed in or taught a trinity (or “Binity”)! Obviously the many trinitarians who handled (and mishandled) Irenaeus’ writing down through the centuries could (and did) change some non-trinitarian thoughts into trinitarian thoughts.* But they would certainly never change trinitarian thoughts into non-trinitarian thoughts. Therefore, those many non-trinitarian concepts still remaining must be Irenaeus’ original teaching!
______________
* The very trinitarian translators of ANF wrote in their Introductory Note to Irenaeus’ Against Heresies: “The text [of Against Heresies] ... is often most uncertain. .... After the text has been settled according to the best judgment [trinitarian, of course] which can be formed, the work of translation remains; and that is, in this case, a matter of no small difficulty. Irenaeus, even in the original Greek, is often a very obscure writer. .... And the Latin version adds to these difficulties of the original, by being itself of the most barbarous character. In fact, it is often necessary to make a conjectural retranslation [trinitarian, of course] into Greek, in order to have some inkling of what the author wrote. .... We have endeavoured to give as close and accurate a translation of the work as possible, but there are not a few passages in which a guess [trinitarian, of course] can only be made as to the probable meaning.” - ANF 1:311-312.

Obviously, if a trinitarian, even a scrupulously honest trinitarian, makes a “conjectural retranslation” or a “guess ... as to the probable meaning,” it will be a trinitarian guess or “conjectural retranslation”!

You asked, "this is a boldfaced lie. have you read Iranaeus?" Yes, I have. See above.
So who is really making a boldfaced Lie."?

so you cherry picked sections where Iranaeus is arguing against polytheistic gnosticisms.
nice.
and you affirm that God is one -- so you are a trinitarian now, because clearly Christ is God, and the Father is God
good

 

[post]

Prov. 8:22-25:
‘The Lord {“Jehovah” in original Hebrew manuscripts} created me the beginning of His ways in His work

'Jehovah' is a German word, not Hebrew.
it is a guess at filling in the vowels of the Tetragrammaton, from early German translations, and 10,00-to-1 odds are you mispronounce it.
in German, 'J' sounds like 'Y' in English, and 'V' sounds like English 'F'




Proverbs 8:22 says YHWH "possessed" Wisdom at the beginning of His way.
((when is the beginning of God?))
the word create is not in the text.

why do you lie and twist scripture?
is it not because the actual Word of God offends you?

did ya figure no one would look any of that up?
do ya think i'm stupid?

 

[APAK]

Apak you may reply to #35

What you request of me is like being invited to another very-dated worn out pirate ghost party aboard a wreck of a ship, grounded many centuries ago. And you as others keep going back to it as if to try and revive it to the pirate life it once had with all its earthly treasures that caused its downfall. I would suggest you give it up. You can come aboard to my party on this vibrant sleek ship that is the 'new life' for seekers of treasure beyond the seas of this world.

 

[David in NJ]

so you cherry picked sections where Iranaeus is arguing against polytheistic gnosticisms.
nice.
and you affirm that God is one -- so you are a trinitarian now, because clearly Christ is God, and the Father is God
good

Irenaeus or Iranaeus .............just as long as it is not Uranus

 

[David in NJ]

What you request of me is like being invited to another very-dated worn out pirate ghost party aboard a wreck of a ship, grounded many centuries ago. And you as others keep going back to it as if to try and revive it to the pirate life it once had with all its earthly treasures that caused its downfall. I would suggest you give it up. You can come aboard to my party on this vibrant sleek ship that is the 'new life' for seekers of treasure beyond the seas of this world.

That was excellent pictograph in words Brother - THANK YOU

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus Christ has two natures in one person

Fully God and fully man

That is not a Biblical teaching. It is true that Jesus was created in God's image as was Adam, and he was created a spirit, as are all the angels, which does give him a similar nature, but even humans has that nature being made in the image of God themselves. Jesus is not God, rather as the Bible states he is God's firstborn son.