what irritates the crud out of me about "Christians" so-called

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Hidden In Him

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And by answering these rehashed threads are you not beating the same drum? If it bothers you so much ignore it, I felt the need to answer your post because while this post is about bashing Catholics you seem to have joined the dead rehashed thread and bash Jehovah's Witnesses, when the OP is clearly talking about Catholicism, yet you criticize Barney Fife and you join in and do the same except bash another group instead of the Catholics.


Barney Bright, not Barney Fife, and the reason I responded is exactly as stated. He is INCITING doctrinal strife OVER THE SAME EXACT ISSUES he and other Jehovahs Witnesses have been doing INCESSANTLY now for the last six months.

I didn't resurrect this thread, HE did. And I didn't answer him by debating the issues again like he is baiting everyone to do. I answered by laying bare the tactics he is using to push his agenda and incite his pet debates again, and THAT is the focus of this discussion.
 

JohnPaul

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Barney Bright, not Barney Fife, and the reason I responded is exactly as stated. He is INCITING doctrinal strife OVER THE SAME EXACT ISSUES he and other Jehovahs Witnesses have been doing INCESSANTLY now for the last six months.

I didn't resurrect this thread, HE did. And I didn't answer him by debating the issues again like he is baiting everyone to do. I answered by laying bare the tactics he is using to push his agenda and incite his pet debates again, and THAT is the focus of this discussion.
Username corrected, yet you took that bait and brought the Jehovah’s Witnesses into it like others bash Catholics. Your beating the drum to the same tune.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I haven't really looked, Michael, but in practice I presume it's to discuss the word of God and all things related. It's just that on the aforementioned issues they've been beaten to death lately. Somebody needs to give it a rest before no one ever cares to discuss that stuff ever again around here.



True "servants of God" also have more respect for others than to keep banging away at the same issues night and day world without end until it becomes brainwashing, Barney. It's why people don't like cults, and if you think you are really making some sort headway here, look at how many people have already commented negatively on how you are beating the damn things to death. If we've talked about each of those topics maybe 12-15 plus times in the last half year already, and you STILL want to keep haranguing over them for what appears to be the rest our lives, does that or does that not show very little consideration on your part for anyone here other than yourself and those you agree with? Give it a rest, "servant of God." That's a very presumptuous position to take, and your lack of consideration for others is likely symptomatic of the spirit that is motivating you to continually stir up strife over these issues in the name of "speaking out against false doctrine."

Give it a rest and have some consideration for others for a change. That's not the Spirit of God driving you to teach heresy, no matter who brainwashed you into believing it or not, and this business is getting really old and tired at this point.
In my experience, “cult” and “brainwashed” refer to those whom do not think/learn for themselves, but instead just recite the same words of others, regardless of the situation/ facts they are presented with. There’s also a heavy focus on threatening individuals whom don’t agree with that party line.

I’ve seen you plenty of cultists in Protestant churches, including in very high ranked positions. In the same pews, I’ve also found truly thinking people whom strive to follow Christ. Same mix with every other religious group. And a lot of non-religious groups too.
 

Hidden In Him

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Username corrected, yet you took that bait and brought the Jehovah’s Witnesses into it like others bash Catholics. Your beating the drum to the same tune.


No, I am not, John Paul. A Jehovahs Witness brought himself to this thread, and there have been people taking their bait here for six months, and this will continue until they are confronted about it. For that there is no choice but to respond. If you think it is going to go away on its own, think again.
 
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Hidden In Him

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In my experience, “cult” and “brainwashed” refer to those whom do not think/learn for themselves, but instead just recite the same words of others, regardless of the situation/ facts they are presented with. There’s also a heavy focus on threatening individuals whom don’t agree with that party line.

I’ve seen you plenty of cultists in Protestant churches, including in very high ranked positions. In the same pews, I’ve also found truly thinking people whom strive to follow Christ. Same mix with every other religious group. And a lot of non-religious groups too.


Hello Jane, and hope you are well, but I am not socializing in this thread.
 

JohnPaul

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No, I am not, John Paul. A Jehovahs Witness brought himself to this thread, and there have been people taking their bait here for six months, and this will continue until they are confronted about it. For that there is no choice but to respond. If you think it is going to go away on its own, think again.
And who is that Jehovah’s Witness may I ask and what bait are they using, are they not Christians like the rest of us?
 
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michaelvpardo

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Have you been a Roman Catholic or a protestant?I've been both, and no one ever taught me that it was necessary to believe in the trinity to be saved, no one. [/Quote\]

I was going to protestant churches growing up. Although I've never been to a Catholic Church, I've talked to those who now are Jehovah witnesses who were brought up in the Catholic church, and they agree with what I said about the Trinity that you had to believe in the Trinity or you were not a Christian. Both the protestant and Catholic Churches state that the Trinity is the central doctrine of the Christian religion. These churches will tell you that the Trinity is the fundamental doctrine of Christianity, saying Christians are those who believe and accept Jesus as God. So the Catholic and Protestant Churches, are stating that those who don't believe Jesus to be God are not Christians. It seems to me that these churches who call themselves Christian churches such as the Catholic and Protestant Churches and they say, if you don't accept the Trinity Doctrine you're not a Christian, doesn't that mean if you're not a Christian, you're not going to get eternal life?

Hidden In Him said:
I was taught the Apostles creed as a child. My memory is so poor that I had to look the creed up to check its content, but it remains in agreement with scripture for the most part, but wouldn't be if you didn't recognize Jesus' equality with God.[/Quote\]

First of all you're going to have to show me the Scriptures that prove Jesus is equal to God, cause I've never found them. Also understand something, people are always wanting me to go by their interpretation of scriptures which they say are showing Jesus equality with God. I know people have a right to their interpretation of the scriptures but I also recognize only that it's their interpretation of scripture. I've never seen any inspired word of God that was written down that said Jesus Christ was equal to God. So you show me the scriptures that God inspired to be written down which come right out saying Jesus is equal to God.

Also the Apostles Creed isn't a part of the Bible canon, so it's not the inspired word of God. Also it's not anywhere in the scriptures that we can find any reference of Jesus using or instructing anyone to use creeds in worship. Jesus spoke out or disapproved of repeating written or memorized prayers (Matthew 6:7). So it's reasonable to me that he would disapprove of reciting creeds in public worship.
Because it's named the Apostles Creed, many people believe that it was actually drawn up by the Apostles of Jesus Christ. Now think about that, if the Apostles of Jesus Christ had drawn up this Apostles Creed, it would be difficult to explain why there are so many different confessions and statements of faith in existence among the early churches.
What we learn from the scriptures thus from Jesus is that it's not memorizing and repeating a prayer or creed that's of any value, but it's learning what the will of Jesus Christ Father and God is and doing it that what's of value to the True God and gets his approval.

Hidden In Him said:
The cults like the Seventh day adventists, Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, or any that consider themselves Christian, only exist because the founders were offended by the simplicity of the gospel and the readily observable failures of the church over the course of 20 centuries. There must be something more! So, self righteous theologians with way too much time on their hands came up with unique doctrines, cherry picked from scripture, and that appeal to our desire to do something for God.[/Quote\]

Yes today it's considered self-righteous to be obedient to God's word. God's inspired word that he had written down for us isn't important to people who only say they're christians. The Catholic and Protestant Churches put more stock in the commands of men than they do God's written word, that he had written down for us. The inspired word of God that God had written down for us from Genesis to Revelation has no doctrine of the Trinity no Hellfire Doctrine or any doctrine teaching immortality of the Soul. So since they're not anywhere written down in the scriptures, I'm not going to agree that they have any place in true worship of the True God, who is the Father and God of Jesus Christ.
The Bible is full of verses that imply Jesus'. equality with God, but only the elect can recieve them because that is the dividing line between new Spiritual birth and the old carnal nature. You either have His Spirit or you don't and His Spirit doesn't deny that Jesus is Lord. The Holy Spirit is the witness of God, not some cult.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:26-27

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 14:26


Jesus declared His equality with the Father openly.
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. John 14:9-11

So, Jesus said that if you recognize Him as the Son of God, then you see Him (as God the Father).

I've seen you testify that you believe Jesus is the Son of God. If you also believe that He rose from the dead, then you have God's promise that you will be saved. A son is never less than his father in being. My dad was human and I'm just as human. Humanity is our common essence. Why would you imagine that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were not defined by their common essence?

I'll admit that if you're not spiritual, you'll never understand these things. Have you asked the Father for the Holy Spirit?
 

michaelvpardo

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During Jesus ministry of 3 1/2 years on the earth, he repeatedly quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly but inaccurately called "the Old Testament") to show what is right and what is wrong, what is prophetic, explaining this to his disciples, giving deep insight into the "Kingdom".(see Matt 13 where Jesus gave a series of seven different illustrations regarding the Kingdom)

In contrast, the Jewish religious leaders not once used the Hebrew Scriptures, but just told the common Jews what to believe but which were mostly lies, in which Jesus said in his scathing denunciation to them: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna (or everlasting destruction) twice as much so as yourselves (by filling their minds and hearts with falsehoods, so that these are moved to keep imparting the same lies and even put to death [see John 16:2, 3] those who ' instruct others in the way of Jehovah ', Ps 27:11)."(Matt 23:13, 15)

After "raking" the Jewish religious leaders "over the coals" for telling lies (see Matt 16:6, 12), who wanted to hinder or stop anyone from expressing the truth about Jehovah God, Jesus now says to them: "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna ?(or everlasting destruction, not "the damnation of hell" as in the KJV) For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar."(Matt 23:33-35)

Corrupted Judaism taught "hellfire" and the "immortality of the soul", for 1st century Jewish historian Josephus (37 ?-101 C.E.?) wrote: "They believe that souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice: eternal imprisonment is the lot of evil souls, while the good souls receive an easy passage to a new life.” (Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 14 [i, 3]) “Every soul, they maintain, is imperishable, but the soul of the good alone passes into another body, while the souls of the wicked suffer eternal punishment.” (The Jewish War, II, 162, 163 (viii, 14)

So, because the Jewish religious system was incorrigible, was "beyond healing" (2 Chron 36:16; "no remedy", KJV), Jesus now said: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem (as the Jewish religious center for telling falsehoods and trampling down "the truth"), the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings ! But you did not want it. Look ! Your house (or the temple in Jerusalem, see 1 Kings 9:7-9) is abandoned to you. For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say (quoting from Ps 118:26), ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name !’” (Matt 23:37-39)

The Trinity, hellfire or hell, the immortality of the soul, are just a few of the religious falsehoods that continue to be promoted by so-called "Christianity", but just as with the Jewish religious system with its "glorious temple" that saw its end in 70 C.E. at the hands of the Roman armies (see Luke 19:41-44; 21:5, 6), so likewise of so-called "Christianity" that will see its end in the near future at the hands of political elements (Rev 17:16, 17), it being a major part of the false religious empire called Babylon the Great.(Rev 17:5)
Actually, the old Testament scriptures were read in synagogues on every Saturday 2000 years ago, just as they are today, but the understanding of them was taught according to the Talmud (which dates back at least to the Babylonian captivity and was written according to rabbinical understanding or interpretation. )
 

Hidden In Him

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No. The Jehovah's witnesses, like all the cults who deny that Jesus is Lord, are spiritually blind. You must be born again.


Actually, I think some of them could be if they truly love God and are simply deceived. I'm not sure JWs afford the same leeway, however. If I am reading them correctly, anyone who is not a Jehovahs Witness has no hope of salvation (though I could be wrong on that).
 

JazzyJeff15

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I wanna say that some Christians of different denominations or backgrounds do a great job of agreeing to disagree in regards to their differences

But what the op is saying is also true. Its part of our sin nature, that we often want to be right. We want to believe our way is the right way. I struggle with it sometimes but I do my best to listen to others who have a different perspective and like Paul said test all things

Many of my views align with those who call themselves Calvinists, but truly i do not want to be called a Calvinist. I dont want any label except for "Follower of Christ"
 
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Hidden In Him

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I wanna say that some Christians of different denominations or backgrounds do a great job of agreeing to disagree in regards to their differences


Some, yes. I have reached the point where my beliefs are very solid, and I'm not the least bit offended by debates over doctrine. I find them quite interesting. But with the intolerant and the arrogant and the manipulative, that immediately stops the debate for me. I have to set it aside and address what I perceive to be sinful behavior on their part. This might make it appear as if I am not open to new perspectives, but in reality I am simply not open to sinfulness, and think it should be corrected.

If only there were more mature people from every denomination and perspective. I think the church would be much better off.
 

michaelvpardo

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Actually, I think some of them could be if they truly love God and are simply deceived. I'm not sure JWs afford the same leeway, however. If I am reading them correctly, anyone who is not a Jehovahs Witness has no hope of salvation (though I could be wrong on that).
This might apply, but I don't condemn people in error (I've been there myself.)

He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. Matthew 10:41

A lot of folks seem to think that we're saved by doctrine rather than by Christ and simply believing the gospel. That smacks of gnosticism.
 
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APAK

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During Jesus ministry of 3 1/2 years on the earth, he repeatedly quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly but inaccurately called "the Old Testament") to show what is right and what is wrong, what is prophetic, explaining this to his disciples, giving deep insight into the "Kingdom".(see Matt 13 where Jesus gave a series of seven different illustrations regarding the Kingdom)

In contrast, the Jewish religious leaders not once used the Hebrew Scriptures, but just told the common Jews what to believe but which were mostly lies, in which Jesus said in his scathing denunciation to them: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna (or everlasting destruction) twice as much so as yourselves (by filling their minds and hearts with falsehoods, so that these are moved to keep imparting the same lies and even put to death [see John 16:2, 3] those who ' instruct others in the way of Jehovah ', Ps 27:11)."(Matt 23:13, 15)

After "raking" the Jewish religious leaders "over the coals" for telling lies (see Matt 16:6, 12), who wanted to hinder or stop anyone from expressing the truth about Jehovah God, Jesus now says to them: "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna ?(or everlasting destruction, not "the damnation of hell" as in the KJV) For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar."(Matt 23:33-35)

Corrupted Judaism taught "hellfire" and the "immortality of the soul", for 1st century Jewish historian Josephus (37 ?-101 C.E.?) wrote: "They believe that souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice: eternal imprisonment is the lot of evil souls, while the good souls receive an easy passage to a new life.” (Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 14 [i, 3]) “Every soul, they maintain, is imperishable, but the soul of the good alone passes into another body, while the souls of the wicked suffer eternal punishment.” (The Jewish War, II, 162, 163 (viii, 14)

So, because the Jewish religious system was incorrigible, was "beyond healing" (2 Chron 36:16; "no remedy", KJV), Jesus now said: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem (as the Jewish religious center for telling falsehoods and trampling down "the truth"), the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings ! But you did not want it. Look ! Your house (or the temple in Jerusalem, see 1 Kings 9:7-9) is abandoned to you. For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say (quoting from Ps 118:26), ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name !’” (Matt 23:37-39)

The Trinity, hellfire or hell, the immortality of the soul, are just a few of the religious falsehoods that continue to be promoted by so-called "Christianity", but just as with the Jewish religious system with its "glorious temple" that saw its end in 70 C.E. at the hands of the Roman armies (see Luke 19:41-44; 21:5, 6), so likewise of so-called "Christianity" that will see its end in the near future at the hands of political elements (Rev 17:16, 17), it being a major part of the false religious empire called Babylon the Great.(Rev 17:5)
Well said.
Those who truly believe they are in the Kingdom of the Father, where his Son is the head and rules today, the first of the resurrected dead, these are the true Christians in the 'Body' of our Savior.

I just take an exception with your last line concerning Babylon. It has fallen as Jerusalem and its rebellious spirit broken, soon after Christ. It may become revived again, in a different form, as possibly an all encompassing system of governance from the same 'origin' of the same physical and spiritual nature - Jerusalem.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Some, yes. I have reached the point where my beliefs are very solid, and I'm not the least bit offended by debates over doctrine. I find them quite interesting. But with the intolerant and the arrogant and the manipulative, that immediately stops the debate for me. I have to set it aside and address what I perceive to be sinful behavior on their part. This might make it appear as if I am not open to new perspectives, but in reality I am simply not open to sinfulness, and think it should be corrected.

If only there were more mature people from every denomination and perspective. I think the church would be much better off.
I agree with the sentiment. But find that calling people "cultists" or "brainwashed" to inherently be arrogant and manipulative. Hence my speaking up here.
 
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JohnPaul

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No. The Jehovah's witnesses, like all the cults who deny that Jesus is Lord, are spiritually blind. You must be born again.
They don’t deny Christ is Lord, just that he is not God, but the son of God, there is only one God and one Jesus Christ, the son of God, they are not one in the same.

And I don’t deem them a cult, why do you may I ask?
 

Hidden In Him

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I agree with the sentiment. But find that calling people "cultists" or "brainwashed" to inherently be arrogant and manipulative. Hence my speaking up here.


My comment about brainwashing was in reference to my first post, and why I have a problem with resurrecting a five year old thread from someone who is long gone that was exceedingly divisive to start with. I don't think the site needs to be hounded day and night, night and day, week after week after week after week with the same exact topics over and over again by the same group of people over and over again teaching the same theology over and over again, to the extent of even digging up some crypt of the thread just to keep it going.

Enough already.
 

Jane_Doe22

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My comment about brainwashing was in reference to my first post, and why I have a problem with resurrecting a five year old thread from someone who is long gone that was exceedingly divisive to start with. I don't think the site needs to be hounded day and night, night and day, week after week after week after week with the same exact topics over and over again by the same group of people over and over again teaching the same theology over and over again, to the extent of even digging up some crypt of the thread just to keep it going.

Enough already.
Is this site not also full of Protestants whom do the exact same thing about their favorite pet topics?
Do you likewise call them "cultists" and all?
 
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