HERESY?

[Davy]

We have run the trash dump thing into the ground. I suppose there was a lot of things around Jerusalem used for different things over the centuries and certainly paganism. Jerusalem was one of those towns that cities were built on top of cities. So I am not contesting Pagan activity in the area over the course of time.

I am just saying Christ makes no connection to it when He is referencing the burning trash dump in His analogy of an eternal fiery punishment. And I have said and asked before....is this in your mind, or do you have a scripture that shows Christ making a connection between the burning trash dump and past Pagan activities? So far nothing.

Well, yes Jesus is pointing to the future "lake of fire", because He using the idea of Hebrew Hinnom, that valley! Why do you deny this?

Furthermore, in Isaiah 30, He pointed to 'Tophet', another name for that Valley of Hinnon, when He hinted at Satan's future destruction in the "lake of fire"...

Isa 30:30-33
30 And the LORD shall cause His glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of His arm, with the indignation of His anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

That devouring fire, tempest, and hailstones are referring to the "day of the Lord" when God's consuming Fire will burn man's works off this earth, and destroy that Wicked one (2 Peter 3:10). Apostle Paul referred to that day as a day of "sudden destruction" upon those who will be saying, "Peace and safety" (1 Thessalonians 5).

31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

Per parables in Ezekiel 31, and info God gives in Isaiah 10, He used that title of "the Assyrian" as a symbolic title for Satan. The 33rd verse below will confirm He is pointing to Satan, and not really the flesh king of Assyria.


32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.

33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; He hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
KJV

As of right now, ONLY Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire. No flesh born man has yet. That is another way we know God is pointing to Satan there with that future fire. Those symbols is about the "lake of fire".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It does mean something. Jesus said Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

He assured us that we MUST do it and if we don't we can NOT enter the kingdom of God. So it does mean something. And no where in that passage does it say that by getting baptized with water it "is in recognition that your old nature is dead and that you rise up a new creature with a divine nature of God."

Yes it does mean something, but only if the prerequisites of death of sin nature is true. You do not bury those who are alive to kill them.

 

[Davy]

MM, I was baptized in water 3 times BEFORE I was born again. THEN after I was filled with His Spirit, God spoke to me and told me I was to be baptized in water, really for the first time.

Water baptism wasn't really what Lord Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus in John 3. That's just men's misunderstanding about being born again.

John 3:3-6
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The phrase "born again" with the word "again" in the Greek actually means born 'from above'. It is pointing to our spirit being born by The Spirit, not water baptism. That can happen without water baptism as shown in Acts.


4 Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Nicodemus understood that Jesus was pointing to flesh birth in the water of woman's womb. About the spirit being born again he didn't understand.


5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
KJV

Verse 6 shows Lord Jesus was pointing to flesh birth in the water of woman's womb with "that which is born of flesh is flesh".

And then He was pointing to our spirit inside our flesh being born again by The Spirit with, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Only those born in the flesh through the water of woman's womb can claim being born of the flesh. And likewise only those with a spirit inside their flesh can be born again of The Spirit from above.

Our spirit was placed into a flesh body at conception in woman's womb. That's the born of water part. But accepting Jesus Christ as The Savior is what causes our spirit inside our flesh to be born from above.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well, yes Jesus is pointing to the future "lake of fire", because He using the idea of Hebrew Hinnom, that valley! Why do you deny this?

I don't care or know if He was thinking it. I am not denying anything I am saying there is no scriptures that tie the two together.....no words out of Christ's mouth to suggest this.

Furthermore, in Isaiah 30, He pointed to 'Tophet', another name for that Valley of Hinnon, when He hinted at Satan's future destruction in the "lake of fire"...

If you are going to go off on a Old Testament Christ tangent, you will lose me. I am not a Jew.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Nah, that's just what those men's traditions you heed have told you. When Jesus told the five Churches in Asia that had problems, they had already believed on Him, otherwise He would not have told them to 'repent'. And when He warned them to repent, that was definitely not in order for them to receive The Holy Spirit. Jesus was saying that repent to them as a REBUKE.

Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV

I don't go by any man's "traditions." You do. Those false doctrines fly right in the face of the words of Jesus that He would take away our sin, and the nature that caused sin. However, we still have free will, just as Lucifer did when he was created perfect in all his ways. The Holy Spirit we receive can be grieved, and ultimately quenched by us. But as long as we walk in the Spirit we are not under the law of Romans 7. We no longer struggle with sin. Romans 8:1-9.

You really should go over Romans 7 again with what Apostle Paul taught about the battle between our spirit and our flesh. Even he said that when he would do good, he finds himself doing just the opposite. So are you better than Apostle Paul? I think not. I know you're not, nor am I.

That is a false doctrine you believe. But the main question for you, is do you still willfully give in to a sin nature? If you do, that nature has not died and you have not received the Spirit of God. But if you do practice holiness, then you have received the Holy Spirit who has empowered us with divine power to not sin. Romans 7:14-23 is the struggle with the sin nature, while with the mind, the Jews knew the law since Moses gave it to them. Romans 7:25. The New Covenant has to do with a renewing of our spirit, our mind, and our heart. The laws of God become part of our nature so there is NO STRUGGLE AT ALL. Read the whole chapter of Romans 7, and keep reading through to Roman 8:9. You've taken verses out of context. Paul is talking in Romans 7:14-23 about the LAW and our mind, not the SPIRIT and our mind. The Spirit was never given to the Old Covenant Jews before Jesus died and resurrected and the Holy Spirit fell on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[Davy]

I don't care or know if He was thinking it. I am not denying anything I am saying there is no scriptures that tie the two together.....no words out of Christ's mouth to suggest this.


If you are going to go off on a Old Testament Christ tangent, you will lose me. I am not a Jew.

I don't believe nor trust you.

 

[Davy]

I don't go by any man's "traditions." You do.

If you don't believe those in Christ have further need to repent of future sin, then you are going by man's traditions, because that idea is nowhere written. Even in Luke 11, Jesus told us how to pray, and that prayer has been used by the Christian Church in all eras, and still for today. In that prayer Jesus directs us to ask forgiveness of our sins, and that is post-belief on Him.

To keep to your rant, it really doesn't fool anyone that knows better.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The phrase "born again" with the word "again" in the Greek actually means born 'from above'. It is pointing to our spirit being born by The Spirit, not water baptism. That can happen without water baptism as shown in Acts.

Yes, that is what I was telling Marymog. Did you miss that?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If you don't believe those in Christ have further need to repent of future sin, then you are going by man's traditions, because that idea is nowhere written. Even in Luke 11, Jesus told us how to pray, and that prayer has been used by the Christian Church in all eras, and still for today. In that prayer Jesus directs us to ask forgiveness of our sins, and that is post-belief on Him.

To keep to your rant, it really doesn't fool anyone that knows better.

You assume you will commit future willful sins of lawlessness 1 Jhn 3:4 even though Jesus has taken that nature away in the Born Again followers. Are you a follower, or just religious?

 

[Davy]

Yes, that is what I was telling Marymog. Did you miss that?

No, I caught what you said that one can receive The Holy Spirit without water baptism. Still doesn't mean we shouldn't get baptized though, since Lord Jesus set the example for us. And I strongly, strongly, believe that it declares one's Faith beyond all doubt, and a believer who does it will be set more responsibly into Christ's service.

 

[Davy]

You assume you will commit future willful sins of lawlessness 1 Jhn 3:4 even though Jesus has taken that nature away in the Born Again followers. Are you a follower, or just religious?

Never said anything about 'willful' sinning. What did you miss with the idea of 'slip up'?

The whole matter is when... we discover we messed up, we need to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness of it. And repentance involves making a change of behavior.

Another problem today is with the later more modern Bible translations and that "sin nature" idea you keep using. There is no such thing, it's our FLESH that causes us to sin, its desires and lusts. Paul defined some of the sins of the flesh in Galatians 5, have you read that?

Matt 26:41
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
KJV

Jesus didn't say, "the sin nature is weak", He said the "flesh is weak", meaning it pulls against what our spirit wants to do that is right.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But then what does 1 John 2:1 mean?
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

John is addressing MY LITTLE CHILDREN....
He is writing so that they may NOT sin...
BUT IF anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father...

I'll first just answer this section, which is all I've read so far.

There are two types of sin. 1 John 5:16-17. Sins unto death 1 John 3:4, and sins not unto death, those who Jesus is our Advocate and keeps cleansing as long as we keep fellowship and forgive those who trespass (sins not unto death) against us. Matthew 6:14-15. That is why in 1 John 1:7 even though the person is walking in the Spirit and cannot commit willful sins of lawlessness, he can still be immature in some of the fruit of the Spirit. It is the actions taken of immaturity - venial sins (not lawlessness sins - mortal sins) that the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse.

But to become a Christian we must repent, Acts 2:38, and that is the major event of 1 John 1:9. There is no mortal sin or venial sin that Jesus blood fails to cleanse at justification. They are our past sins (before Christ). 2 Peter 1:9. But then Jesus gives us His own Spirit Romans 8:9 to prevent us from willfully sinning lawlessly ever again - those sins that lead to death. And our venial sins of immaturity in the Spirit are cleansed by our Advocate - 1 John 2:1. Just remember that sins unto death were only covered by the blood of Jesus at our confession from BEFORE we repented unto Jesus and became His follower. Now He wants us to remain not only sinless, but to become perfect in maturity. Those steps are found in 2 Peter 1:5-7. Now read to verse 11! If you do those steps you will NEVER STUMBLE.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, I caught what you said that one can receive The Holy Spirit without water baptism. Still doesn't mean we shouldn't get baptized though, since Lord Jesus set the example for us. And I strongly, strongly, believe that it declares one's Faith beyond all doubt, and a believer who does it will be set more responsibly into Christ's service.

Baptism is in OBEDIENCE to what God has done for us. Jesus died so our nature we were enslaved with could die. And then Jesus was resurrected so we could rise changed in nature to live our life for God. His followers are obedient, not disobedient; so of course they will show the world through baptism they are Christ's follower.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace Just goes to show how important it is to keep a clear, Scriptural view of the Person and work of Christ...

Amen to that!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Never said anything about 'willful' sinning. What did you miss with the idea of 'slip up'?

The whole matter is when... we discover we messed up, we need to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness of it. And repentance involves making a change of behavior.

Another problem today is with the later more modern Bible translations and that "sin nature" idea you keep using. There is no such thing, it's our FLESH that causes us to sin, its desires and lusts. Paul defined some of the sins of the flesh in Galatians 5, have you read that?

Matt 26:41
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
KJV

Jesus didn't say, "the sin nature is weak", He said the "flesh is weak", meaning it pulls against what our spirit wants to do that is right.

The "flesh" is our nature, friend. Don't you know that? How else does Jesus take away our sin, if not by taking away the cause - our nature? Do you think we can continue to willfully sin and call yourself a Christian? Can you murder and steal and lie and commit adultery? Do Christians do those things? Are the words of Martin Luther truth? That no matter if we commit murder or adultery a 1000 times a day, they will not separate us from God? Think again. For yourself this time.

 

[Davy]

The "flesh" is our nature, friend. Don't you know that? How else does Jesus take away our sin, if not by taking away the cause - our nature? Do you think we can continue to willfully sin and call yourself a Christian? Can you murder and steal and lie and commit adultery? Do Christians do those things? Are the words of Martin Luther truth? That no matter is we commit murder or adultery a 1000 times a day, they will not separate us from God? Think again. For yourself this time.

The flesh is not our 'nature'. The real us is our spirit inside our flesh, or don't you believe you have a soul-spirit independent of your flesh?

And you keep throwing out that idea of willfully sinning when you well know you still slip up at times and catch yourself in a sin after... the fact. You didn't realize you did it until it was too late. No need to lie to me that you don't still do that at times, you do, everyone in Christ does, like Apostle Paul showed in Romans 7.

Rom 7:14-22
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
KJV

The fact of the matter for all... Christians is, that we can NEVER be perfect without sin like our Lord Jesus was when He walked this earth, we can only be 'counted'... perfect through His Sacrifice, and that only when we repent and stay in the walk with Him. And that is the very gist of the situation, to say we have no sin is to call Him a liar, and it shows His truth is not in us (1 John 1).

 

[Brakelite]

Rom 7:14-22
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Paul is describing himself as a carnal man, unable to do sinning because he is not spiritual, he cannot obey the law. In other words, he is yet unconverted.
In chapter 8 however, he speaks of those who are converted. He is in Christ Jesus. There is no condemnation for him. Why?
KJV Romans 8:1-11
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; (Paul in Romans 7 was carnally minded...quote...but I am carnal, sold under sin. He was speaking as a man still married and alive to the law).


(But when that old carnal fleshly sinful imprisoned man died in Christ Jesus) but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, (as Paul was in Romans 7 when still alive to the law) he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[Enoch111]

Soooo Your theory is that each local church has a leader that rules over them and the membes of those individual churches must be submissive to those indivual leaders???????

Not "a leader" but a plurality of elders (1 Peter 5:1-3). So if one is out of line, the others can correct him. Even so, the elders do not stand in for any Christians. They can lead, encourage, admonish, rebuke, but in the end each person must take responsibility for himself or herself.

The elders [plural] which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

 

[Brakelite]

Not "a leader" but a plurality of elders (1 Peter 5:1-3). So if one is out of line, the others can correct him. Even so, the elders do not stand in for any Christians. They can lead, encourage, admonish, rebuke, but in the end each person must take responsibility for himself or herself.

The elders [plural] which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

I am reminded by you of this verse, especially as it relates directly to the so called authority the Catholics give their magisterium, absolving themselves of responsibility for their own destiny and placing that in the hands of mortal sinful men like themselves...
KJV Luke 22:25-26
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Also, after I read your "Edit" I'd like to get into some history...


1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is used by Catholics to support their doctrine of purgatory.
Actually, it's speaking of the ministry of Paul and Apollos.

You used the same verse I did...SO THAT YOU MAY NOT SIN...
But then John gives these Children of his a way out...
Why?

Here's the history I'd like to share with you, seeing as how you know and enjoy history (I think).

The Catholic Church does actual confession - confessing to a priest who announces the penitent to be forgiven by God.
Confession was not always practiced as it is today.
At the beginning persons confessed audibly in a group, in a "church" setting...be it a bldg or a home.
This caused problems, as you can imagine. So it changed, gradually, to what they do today.

But WHY have confession at all?

At the beginning it was believed that those that were believers and were baptized would automatically stop sinning.
It was realized, very quickly, that even those that were baptized - thus being buried and risen with Christ - would still be sinning
at some point or other; even though their life changed for the better.

So how could this be handled?
Since Jesus told the Apostles in John 20:23 that they could forgive or retain forgiveness for sins, they decided on some type of communal
confession for forgiveness of sins.

Let's leave it at this for now.
But do you know what the ECFs thought about sinning?
Maybe next time...

ECF? Is that Episcopals? Well not being Catholic, Orthodox or Episcopal, then no I don't know what they believe. But I am not thinking of "purgatory" when interpreting 1 Cor. 3.

Just so you know. Being in a denomination, or going to church, or even believing in Jesus will not save you if you do not have the Holy Spirit inside you super-sensitizing your conscience making it almost impossible to go against it. If you do, it would be very uncomfortable and God's chastisement. IOW, there are many calling Jesus, Lord, but who do not belong to Him. Romans 8:9. And that is why it only seems that Christians are able to sin by those church fathers. True Christians always live up to the light they have. And more light is given as they grow towards perfection. Philippians 3:16.