Should Christians Always Be Healed?

[farouk]

Farouk, you keep bringing this up without reading the thread. I don't mean to be rude but you slow the conversation down when you do this. It has been addressed and continues to be addressed by several people. Please review the thread so that you can respond to opposing interpretations there, rather than assuming yours is the correct one.

I see the comment about God's will (for healing, etc.); it seems to me that if one prays, "Thy will be done" and the person is not healed but is given grace to endure, then this fits with the bigger picture.

 

[Mayflower]

Maybe it is semantics, because the above doesn't make sense to me the way I interpret the phrase "my will." I don't have kids, but I do have dogs, and they serve as my kids because I treat them just like if they were my children.

Now, when someone is really blowing it (such as starting a fight with the neighbors dogs across the street, and then I gotta pay a $50 vet bill for nothing, etc), it becomes my will to paddle someone's backside until they get it in their head that what they just did was wrong, and in worst case scenarios it could get them sentenced by a judge to being euthanized (I had this happen to a friend, btw, whose dog killed a cat right in front of its owner).

I can assure you it is my WILL to keep such a thing from happening, so it is my will to tan somebody's hide and make a very strong impression so that it gets prevented. This is the meaning of the passage in Hebrews:

5 You have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12)

So again, do you think it ever becomes God's will not to heal but to discipline through sickness and disease if necessary? Keep in mind that these things are part of the curses laid out very clearly in Deuteronomy 28, which passage serves as the very foundation of Faith teaching.

 

[DuckieLady]

Likely, yes. Merely invoking a powerful name, rather than operating in the Spirit of that Name Himself.


Ok, let me take a stab at this, together with your question about why didn't they heal themselves rather than resorting to Paul.

In the case of Paul, those receiving healing were apparently the unsaved, but even there, faith was required on their part. I would have a tough time finding it, but earlier in this thread I/ we were discussing how Jesus could do no miracles in His home town because of their lack of faith in Him, thinking He was just the home town boy they had always known. The reason He did not do many miracles there was not because of Him but them. They didn't believe. So here faith must have been present on the part of those seeking out Paul for healing. So I don't know that Paul's healings can be related to the specific question.

As for casting out demons, this again is the purview of those in whom the Spirit dwells. Was it a gift only for specific believers? I don't see it included in the lists of the gifts either, so I would have to conclude no.

Why, you wanting to cast out some trouble or something?

Casting out did catch my attention, but one thing always leads me to another thing and eventually corrects me if I need it, which led me to the next verse.

Lol

I had a big crash after writing all of that and just woke up, but basically, I think you are right about it being a universal gift and I may have been wrong.

The lack of faith verse is Mark 6:5.

I think @Nancy posted something here recently about fasting to cast out demons.

It was a good post. I don't know if the same would be required healing illnesses, but it seems to me that they would go hand and hand. Especially since Jesus healed a dumb/deaf boy by casting out a demonic spirit.

As the spirit was being cast out, he spirit gets angry and attacks the boy again.

So reading that I understand what happened. It makes sense that God said this thing was gone (the witchcraft) and all I have to do now is to trust Him, and that it got angry and attacked me again.

I'm glad you helped me down the road to lead me to read that, because I was at losing faith and not understanding mode.

 

[farouk]

I think of "will" as what I want for my child. So my will would be for my daughter to walk in a manner worthy of her calling. Also all the good I can do for her if she were to do so. If she were not and were to be disciplined, I would say she is hindering what I want to do for her really.

It could be semantics, because I think you count the means, but I think there is a danger in saying it like that, that it is God's will for someone to get sick. Because then this is when people start to blame God when it is really that sin that brought judgement. And I don't believe that judgement is what makes people sick 9 times out of 10.

Hi @Mayflower This is an interesting verse: "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification..." (1 Thessalonians 4.3).

I guess matters of healing, etc., can pale in the face of God's purposes for His pilgrim ppl in sanctification.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Again God allowed the flood, but did He will that? Or was it because of peoples' sin that He was bound to His righteous and just nature against sin?

Not a very defensible position however, I'm afraid. God didn't allow the flood, He brought the flood

7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (Genesis 6:7-8)

Or was it because of peoples' sin that He was bound to His righteous and just nature against sin?

Now this is closer to the truth. More accurately put, He will not tolerate sin forever. As the Peter passage you quoted states, He is slow to judgment. He proved this even with Jezebel, telling them, "I warned her several times to repent of her sins." But judgment day DOES come eventually, and when it does there will be nothing stopping it.

The positive side is that, if at all possible, He seeks only to correct. But for those who will not receive correction, the results can be catastrophic.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Been there, done that. Now I let Him fight my battles.

Much love!

Well, when I say "I war with Him," I mean I go to war like the Israelites went to war, with the power of God behind me and manifesting on my behalf. It was not simply God Himself destroying their enemies. The Israelites themselves did much of the fighting and killing as well, in obedience to His command to take the land. If they had just sat back passively and waited for Him to do everything they would have never entered the land to begin with, because most were afraid of the giants.

 

[Mayflower]

Not a very defensible position however, I'm afraid. God didn't allow the flood, He brought the flood

7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. (Genesis 6:7-8)


Now this is closer to the truth. More accurately put, He will not tolerate sin forever. As the Peter passage you quoted states, He is slow to judgment. He proved this even with Jezebel, telling them, "I warned her several times to repent of her sins." But judgment day DOES come eventually, and when it does there will be nothing stopping it.

The positive side is that, if at all possible, He seeks only to correct. But for those who will not receive correction, the results can be catastrophic.

Oh yeh He brought the flood. LOL. I'm tired and now trying to participate ten minutes before church starts now. LOL. I love this subject though. But even so, He was bound by His righteous and just nature. If it was still Garden of Eden, there would be no reason for chastening or judgement and God wouldn't do that, because He desires goodness for His children.

 

[Mayflower]

If you said it is God's will for people to go to Hell, you would be wrong. Because He desires all to come to repentance. So why do people think saying it is God's will for people to be sick and die is God's will.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I really just see one thing . . . that I live unto God in this moment, and in this moment, here's what's happening in my life, whatever it is, and I'm sharing it with Him.

Whoa... see, here is where you and I would be light years apart then. I am so goal-oriented spiritually that I am hardly even living in the now. I suppose some could debate the pros and cons of each, but I'm simply bringing it up to point out how vastly different you and I approach life if that's the case.

The kind of trust I'm talking about is choosing to assume that He will do what is good for Him to do

In this we would be agreed, only I would interpret it in light of all the passages I shared with you on how faith (for answers to specific prayers) pleases God, and a lack of faith does not.

But I think we are starting to drift farther and farther from each other here now rather than find common ground, so maybe I will let it rest with us here.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you said it is God's will for people to go to Hell, you would be wrong.

Correct.

So why do people think saying it is God's will for people to be sick and die is God's will.

I'm saying that is not His ultimate goal, LoL! which although you are not intending it too seems to be the way you are couching the question. The ultimate goal is simply to correct if at all possible. As the passage states, He chastises so that we not be condemned with the world (1 Corinthians 11). This is ultimately His will. But if chastising becomes necessary to see that that will is accomplished, then chastisement becomes His will.

We seem to be butting heads...

Does this make us buttheads, or just having a rough time agreeing in this conversation?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm glad you helped me down the road to lead me to read that, because I was at losing faith and not understanding mode.

Don't lose faith. I'm not sure if you realize it or not, but you are a blessing to a lot of people. Keep letting God use you, and don't sweat the rest of it. "All things work for good to those who love God and are called according to purpose."

 

[Hidden In Him]

That doesn’t happen.

They come to Christ when they see God doesn’t leave believers in their sickness, but heals them.

I actually wondered about that a little myself. I can't think of too many sinners who are moved by how faithful we remained to a God who never healed us. I can think of plenty who would be impressed by how we refused to return evil for evil, for instance, but staying faithful to what appears to be an unfaithful God might come off as being kinda stupid, and trusting in a God that isn't there. Not saying that's the way they should interpret it, but it is likely the way they would, and do.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Personal opinion (Developed over the last 30 years) - I tend to wander (get drawn away by "other things" that I might obsessively "lose myself in") not into SIN, per se, but more into a neglect of SPiritual things - but being keenely aware of my impending mortality, keeps the Spiritual a LOT closer to the surface. I'm a musician by nature, and skillset, and I have to "watch it" so it doesn't "take over" to the detriment of other things. Physical weakness and lack of stamina is a big help in that (and besides I'm almost 80).

Praise God. This is a good word to me. But maybe that's because it contains the positives that God is bringing out of it in your life implicitly, which is a bit of a different thing to me than just vaguely presuming that it might accomplish some good eventually, and accepting it as such. Again, for me it goes back to finding out specifically from the Lord why something is happening. And even if we should be wrong, as scripture says, "What a man does by faith he does unto God." Trusting in Him that you are continuing to grow in obedience to Him is the most important thing, for it is from there that everything else springs. From there, we all get to the rest of it, as much as lies within us.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I see the comment about God's will (for healing, etc.); it seems to me that if one prays, "Thy will be done" and the person is not healed but is given grace to endure, then this fits with the bigger picture.

Yes, but now the contention in this thread has been about whether it was/ is His will to heal, basing our conclusions simply upon whether they did get healed or not. This is an assumption most Faith people would patently reject, and I would have to agree. I think it is the duty of a Christian, especially a servant of God, to find out for sure one way or the other, so as not to make an assumption about something that could be vitally important to the rest of their life.

Again, faith in Him to answer prayers pleases God. A lack of faith believing He won't does not. This needs to color how we handle the issue of what to do about sickness.

 

[DuckieLady]

Don't lose faith. I'm not sure if you realize it or not, but you are a blessing to a lot of people. Keep letting God use you, and don't sweat the rest of it. "All things work for good to those who love God and are called according to purpose."

Thanks @Hidden In Him I'm not sure why it took rebuking the thing that I was involved in for God to say "hey, you're done with that part, so now..." Something to reflect on.

If you ever come up with a Biblical explanation for that let me know. I don't get it.

And you all here are a blessing, too!

 

[marks]

pleases God, and a lack of faith does not.

I think, once again, you don't understand what I'm saying.

I don't choose what will happen. But I implicitly trust that God will do His will. Call that a lack of faith, but you really aren't seeing me. It seems to me the question is who is in the drivers seat, and do you have the right to tell God what you are going to trust Him for.

I guess maybe I understand better what you are talking about. It sounds like you need to have a sense of control, and that you want your feeling of faith to be commensurate with your desired for a particular outcome.

Does it change your faith in God to pray not knowing whether or not this or that thing is His will, compared to when you believe it is?

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, but now the contention in this thread has been about whether it was/ is His will to heal, basing our conclusions simply upon whether they did get healed or not. This is an assumption most Faith people would patently reject, and I would have to agree. I think it is the duty of a Christian, especially a servant of God, to find out for sure one way or the other, so as not to make an assumption about something that could be vitally important to the rest of their life.

Again, faith in Him to answer prayers pleases God. A lack of faith believing He won't does not. This needs to color how we handle the issue of what to do about sickness.

the real question for me is not whether we witness physical healings but instead …do we witness spiritual healings? For clarity I mean wounds healed within the spiritual body of Christ, His church. Or transformation of the source from where Joy comes from, or endurance or forgiveness or sorrow unto repentance (not to be repented of?), and a true once and for all turning towards God for restoration in “to make peace with”? do we witness renewing of mind, or healing of the spiritual body His church where prisoners and those captive in darkness are set free? do we witness the power of 1 Corinthians 4:19 “But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.”

Curious why spiritual healings are never debated…only physical healings?(i’m not suggesting you but nowhere on threads as the topic is people getting healed to walk in peace with Him, but instead do they get healed physically and miraculously) Because what is Hope, what is Joy, what is Patience, what is long-suffering?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I guess maybe I understand better what you are talking about. It sounds like you need to have a sense of control, and that you want your feeling of faith to be commensurate with your desired for a particular outcome.

No, no. I will relate it again to something you are familiar with, though you last time tried to differentiate the two issues when they really shouldn't be differentiated, as the part we play in both is the same:

For you to be saved took an active will on your part. Unless one is a Calvinist and thinks that God does everything including put the will within us to turn to Him, then you believe you had to exercise your own volition to turn to Him in faith for saving grace.

Now, the SAME thing applies regarding many other things; anything in fact that you hope to likewise receive from God: Provision, healing, protection. If you were to take the position that "God will save me if He wants to, and if He doesn't He won't," you would likely become too passive on the issue, and not make any strides on your own to read your Bible, pray, seek God for His help, or even have any relation with Him. Everything would be entirely in His hands, and you would have no part to play in it whatsoever. But this is not so with salvation; you have to actively believe the gospel of your own volition, and this is the root word behind "Faith" theology. They teach that it is necessary to believe God for healing if you would receive it, and as I have already shared in this thread there are multiple passages that suggest this.

 

[Hidden In Him]

the real question for me is not whether we witness physical healings but instead …do we witness spiritual healings? For clarity I mean wounds healed within the spiritual body of Christ, His church. Or transformation of the source from where Joy comes from, or endurance or forgiveness or sorrow unto repentance (not to be repented of?), and a true once and for all turning towards God for restoration in “to make peace with”? do we witness renewing of mind, or healing of the spiritual body His church where prisoners and those captive in darkness are set free? do we witness the power of 1 Corinthians 4:19 “But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.”

Curious why spiritual healings are never debated…only physical healings?(i’m not suggesting you but nowhere on threads as the topic is people getting healed to walk in peace with Him, but instead do they get healed physically and miraculously) Because what is Hope, what is Joy, what is Patience, what is long-suffering?

Well this would be beyond the purview of this particular thread, but I agree with you. There is psychological and spiritual healing in Christ, and a renewing of the mind, and replacing the spirit of fear with a Spirit of Love, Power and a Sound Mind. There is also walking in Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Temperance, Brotherly Friendship and Love, which are to be the fruit of the Spirit that we walk in and inhabits us.

Now if you are referring to a type of deliverance being performed that brings such healing about, that is a difficult/ complicated subject to address. Many things could be at play, including chemical imbalance, spiritual influence (hereditary), physical injury or impairment, etc. Again I believe that the same thing would apply: It would require seeking the Lord about specifically what the problem is; what the root source behind it is. But I just couldn't speak with much more authority on it than that, Victory. It's not really anything close to my area of expertise. Neither is physical healing for that matter. I can believe God for my own healing, but as far as how to attain healing for others (psychological or otherwise), it's not a gift I operate in yet personally.

 

[Mayflower]

Correct.


I'm saying that is not His ultimate goal, LoL! which although you are not intending it too seems to be the way you are couching the question. The ultimate goal is simply to correct if at all possible. As the passage states, He chastises so that we not be condemned with the world (1 Corinthians 11). This is ultimately His will. But if chastising becomes necessary to see that that will is accomplished, then chastisement becomes His will.

We seem to be butting heads...

Does this make us buttheads, or just having a rough time agreeing in this conversation?

So you are saying His will means God's ultimate goal, and His goal is to correct if all possible? I can agree with that. It is not God's ultimate goal to make one sick though. Otherwise in Heaven, there would be sickness. Correct?