HERESY?

[Eternally Grateful]

Jhn 6:48 I am the bread of life.
6:48 ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος τῆς ζωῆς

Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:35 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος τῆς ζωῆς ὁ ἐρχόμενος πρός ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ καὶ ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ διψήσει πώποτε

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
Jhn6:51 ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος ὁ ζῶν ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς ἐάν τις φάγῃ ἐκ τούτου τοῦ ἄρτου ζήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ὁ ἄρτος δὲ ὃν ἐγὼ δώσω ἡ σάρξ μού ἐστιν ὑπὲρ τῆς τοῦ κόσμου ζωῆς

You do realize that in scripture leaven represents sin do you not?

 

[GodsGrace]

And you are still avoiding my question.....

I repeat...
NOW, WHEN DID JESUS INSTITUTE THE NEW COVENANT IF HE DID NOT DO IT UNDER THE OLD COVENANT EVEN THOUGH THE SEPTUAGINTS TRANSCRIBED THE GREEK WORD AS LEAVENED BREAD AT THE LAST SUPPER?

That same Greek word "autos" is in two of my Interliner Bibles. These are facts. They are not my biased "opinions". In Mark 14, Mark used both "Unleavened Bread" and "bread." This is for the use of "Unleavened Bread" of which Mark was merely giving the "title" of the feast; he was not discussing what was in the feast. But in verse 22 he does use the word "autos". That means that the 70 Septuagint transcribers understood that "bread" had two meanings to it....

Mark 14 - Interlinear
1. ῏Ην δὲ τὸ πάσχα καὶ τὰ ἄζυμα μετὰ δύο ἡμέρας.
Was but the passover and the unfermented [cakes] after two days.
22. Καὶ ἐσθιόντων αὐτῶν λαβὼν ἄρτον εὐλογήσας ἔκλασεν καὶ
And eating of them having taken loaf having blessed he broke and

Hi Moriah
Could you tell me what this conversation is about?
You are all discussing something I never thought about. I think I understand your point about the title of the feast not having anything to do with what type of bread was eaten.

I don't understand the importance or what this has to do with the New Covenant.
I'd appreciate it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't care about this

I care about what happened.

If leavened bread was present, they broke the law.

period

all of this just so you feel you do not have to eat crackers at the lords supper? Good God, who cares what you eat.. Its NOT the passover meal or the feast of Unleavened bread.

Is your last paragraph the bone of contention?
Is this convo about what type of bread is used at communion?

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't care about this

I care about what happened.

If leavened bread was present, they broke the law.

period

all of this just so you feel you do not have to eat crackers at the lords supper? Good God, who cares what you eat.. Its NOT the passover meal or the feast of Unleavened bread.

Jesus died on Friday, at the same time lambs were being sacrificed on the other side of Jerusalem.
Wouldn't THIS be the Passover? Friday?

If so, it wouldn't matter what type of bread was used at the Last Supper.

Interesting topic.
Purely for reasons of curiosity.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Grailhunter

Do we know for certain that Passover was celebrated on that Thursday?
I don't think we can be certain..
Can we?

 

[Moriah's Song]

Could you tell me what this conversation is about?

Sure.
The OT specifically says that "leaven/yeast" was not to be used either for animal sacrifices or for cereal offerings because when it is mixed with flour and water it makes it "rise." It is forbidden because God gave Moses instructions to avoid yeast during the first Passover in Egypt and remove all yeast while celebrating Passover in the future.

Exodus 13:3 "And Moses said to the people, "Remember this day, in which you came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage, for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place; no leavened bread shall be eaten.​

But Leviticus encouraged "yeast" to be used in cereal offerings as "first fruits."

Leviticus 7:13 - "...With the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving he shall bring his offering with cakes of leavened bread (with yeast).​

Leviticus 23:17 - "You shall bring from your dwellings two loaves of bread to be waved, made of two tenths of an ephah; they shall be of fine flour, they shall be baked with leaven, as first fruits to the LORD. 18) And you shall present with the bread seven lambs a year old without blemish, and one young bull, and two rams; they shall be a burnt offering to the LORD, with their cereal offering and their drink offerings, an offering by fire, a pleasing odor to the LORD. 19) And you shall offer one male goat for a sin offering, and two male lambs a year old as a sacrifice of peace offerings. 20) And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the first fruits as a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs; they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. 21)And you shall make proclamation on the same day; you shall hold a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work: it is a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations."​

Also there is Amos' prophesy which says:

Amos 4:5 - "...offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving of that which is leavened (with yeast), and proclaim freewill offerings, publish them; for so you love to do, O people of Israel!" says the Lord GOD."​

Why are those who are concerned about what "type" of bread Jesus used when He instituted the New Covenant during the Last Supper? It seems as though those who still adhere to the OT laws in regards to offerings believe that those "laws" should still be in effect in the NT of which I disagree with that line of thinking.

The reason I disagree with it is because the NT uses the Greek word "artos" which translates into English as indication of "leavened bread"; not the "unleavened bread" of the OT. When Jesus instituted the New Covenant He replaced those OT laws of animal sacrifices with our "leavened bread" and "wine" (or grape juice).

Those who disagree claim that because that new "communion" was to be a part of the New Covenant it was instituted during the OT period because Jesus had not died and been resurrected at that point and therefore the bread they ate "should still be the old UNleavened bread of the OT" even though the word "unleavened" is never used again in the entire NT unless it refers to the festival titles because Jesus is replacing them within the New Covenant at the Last Supper as you can see from the following NT verses...

1Co 11:23-24 - For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." ​

This is a sampling out of 77 NT verses that use the word "artos/leavened bread. (Mt 26:17, 26, Mark 14:22, Luke 4:3-4, Luke 22:19, 24:30,35, John 6:32-33, 35, 51, 1 Cor 11:26-28, Heb 9:2)

In 1Cor. verses 23-24, Jesus used the Greek word "artos" for the word "bread" above which indicates that "leaven/yeast" was used in the bread.

Mat 12:4 - " how [David] entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?​

So, why is that important? Because Christ arose from the dead and our raised "Wonder Bread" can be used instead of those "paper-tasting wafers" the Catholics use without committing "a sin".

There is an excellent website that you should check out at: https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/newsletter/newsletter-mar-1997/first-fruits-in-the-bible-what-does-it-have-to-do-with-resurrection-from-the-dead/

 

[Moriah's Song]

If so, it wouldn't matter what type of bread was used at the Last Supper.

Jesus instituted the Last Supper (using the word "artos/leaven bread) on Thursday evening just before the Jews came after him to crucify him on the following morning; Friday A.M. Jesus could not have possible instituted it AFTER he was crucified as he would then have been in his glorifed body until he ascended into heaven.

The important thing is that the 70 scholars of the Septuagint translated that word "bread" as "artos" in all 77 of those verses in the NT's Last Supper even before Jesus was crucified and further mentioned by the writers who spoke of the "communion" as taught by the authors in the Epistles.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is your last paragraph the bone of contention?
Is this convo about what type of bread is used at communion?

from what I remember when I first spoke. The person said something about crackers and communion

 

[Grailhunter]

@Grailhunter

Do we know for certain that Passover was celebrated on that Thursday?
I don't think we can be certain..
Can we?

I am walking this backwards

Because the Jews calculate Passover on the Lunar cycle....we know what date it is.
Saturday was the double holiday....Passover and the Sabbath. Passover started at dusk on Friday with the rise of the full moon...continued through Passover day Saturday.

Friday Christ was crucified....and the Passover meal for the Jews occurred....using unleavened bread...Seder meal....
Earlier that day...after midnight the Apostles were watching Christ before Pilate and did not enter because they did not want to defile themselves because they intended to eat the actual Passover meal....Friday evening

On Thursday, they had a Passover meal for Christ because He would not be there for the actual Passover meal on Friday.
This meal had leavened bread. The confusion factor is that the Bible calls it a Passover meal. And there is no coverage of the actual Passover meal that occurs on Friday evening before Passover starts....All we have is that on Friday the Apostles were intending to eat the actual Passover meal.

The longer version....with scriptures.
Grailhunter’s Corner

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus died on Friday, at the same time lambs were being sacrificed on the other side of Jerusalem.
Wouldn't THIS be the Passover? Friday?

If so, it wouldn't matter what type of bread was used at the Last Supper.

Interesting topic.
Purely for reasons of curiosity.

Well you are right....the full description is in Grailhunter's Corner. Post 1249
Christ was our sacrificial lamb....the Lamb of God. He is on the cross that Friday about the time they are slaughtering and cooking the lamps for the Passover meal. The meal was to be eaten and completed before dusk and the rise of the full moon, which marked the start of the Passover holiday.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Old Testament talk....New Testament denial

I go by what the 70 Septaguint writers wrote. It is not my opinion it is fact in writing in God's Word.

Provide a verse and stop telling lies.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Provide a verse and stop telling lies.

You're out of line calling me a "liar" especially when I quoted the Septuagint.

 

[michaelvpardo]

And you are still avoiding my question.....

I repeat...
NOW, WHEN DID JESUS INSTITUTE THE NEW COVENANT IF HE DID NOT DO IT UNDER THE OLD COVENANT EVEN THOUGH THE SEPTUAGINTS TRANSCRIBED THE GREEK WORD AS LEAVENED BREAD AT THE LAST SUPPER?

That same Greek word "autos" is in two of my Interliner Bibles. These are facts. They are not my biased "opinions". In Mark 14, Mark used both "Unleavened Bread" and "bread." This is for the use of "Unleavened Bread" of which Mark was merely giving the "title" of the feast; he was not discussing what was in the feast. But in verse 22 he does use the word "autos". That means that the 70 Septuagint transcribers understood that "bread" had two meanings to it....

Mark 14 - Interlinear
1. ῏Ην δὲ τὸ πάσχα καὶ τὰ ἄζυμα μετὰ δύο ἡμέρας.
Was but the passover and the unfermented [cakes] after two days.
22. Καὶ ἐσθιόντων αὐτῶν λαβὼν ἄρτον εὐλογήσας ἔκλασεν καὶ
And eating of them having taken loaf having blessed he broke and

This is a lie. The septuagint was written before the birth of Christ, before the New Testament was written. Using Greek words doesn't make you a scholar.
Asserting that a fiction is true just identifies you as delusional.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

sorry I did not get to this earlier

It was Jesus that said 3 days and 3 nights.
It doesn't work out, no matter how you do the counting, even using the Jewish day/time method.
But He wasn't dumb,,,
So He must have been using language of His time and culture.

Here in Italy we do the same thing.
If it's Monday and I want to meet a friend next Monday, one of the ways to say this is:
DA OGGI A 8
which means From today to 8 days away.
So do the counting,,,
It's 8 days counting the present Monday
IOW, it's how we talk.
It's not really 8 24 hour periods.

Just my idea...
Then again, John could have made a mistake.

I see your point.

I guess we would have to look at the true length Jonah was in the great fish. Was it literally 3 days or three nights? Because that is what Jesus used as an example.

I do agree. it is not 3 periods of 24 hours..

he died in the evening. So that would be day one.

He raised before sunset. so that would be the third night.

so if he died on Thursday. it would work out.

if he died on Friday, as tradition says. Then the time does not work out.

This is probably one of those things we will have to ask Jesus when we see him.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, the Bible contrasts good and evil, but leaven always represents a corrupting influence in spiritual terms, but if you're not spiritual, you'll never understand spiritual things.

Jesus never said that He was leavened bread or ate leavened bread for the Passover. [comment removed]

You are fighting a losing battle.
On Thursday, at the Passover meal for Christ they used leavened bread....look up the Greek word used for bread....Leavened...daily bread.
Then the normal Passover meal that would occur on Friday was a Seder meal and they used unleavened bread.

 

[michaelvpardo]

You're out of line calling me a "liar" especially when I quoted the Septuagint.

Again, the new testament is not in the septuagint. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament written for the "Greek speaking" Jews of the diaspora.
The only mention of Jesus in the Septuagint is entirely prophetic and there are no descriptions of the last supper before it happened.

 

[Moriah's Song]

The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament written for the "Greek speaking" Jews of the diaspora.

The New Testament was originally written in Greek and was subsequently translated into Latin by Jerome in the 4th century in a version called the Vulgate. Latin was the universal language of the Roman Catholic Church, and the New Testament was only freely available in Latin or Greek until the Protestant Reformation of the 16th and 17th centuries.

 

[michaelvpardo]

sorry I did not get to this earlier



I see your point.

I guess we would have to look at the true length Jonah was in the great fish. Was it literally 3 days or three nights? Because that is what Jesus used as an example.

I do agree. it is not 3 periods of 24 hours..

he died in the evening. So that would be day one.

He raised before sunset. so that would be the third night.

so if he died on Thursday. it would work out.

if he died on Friday, as tradition says. Then the time does not work out.

This is probably one of those things we will have to ask Jesus when we see him.

The world reckons the beginning of the day as sunrise, but the Jews have always reckoned the beginning of the day as sunset based upon the account of creation. There was darkness in creation before there was light.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:3-5
This is why the Jewish feasts start at sundown the day before the calendar day.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The New Testament was originally written in Greek and was subsequently translated into Latin by Jerome in the 4th century in a version called the Vulgate. Latin was the universal language of the Roman Catholic Church, and the New Testament was only freely available in Latin or Greek until the Protestant Reformation of the 16th and 17th centuries.

Duh. You claimed that the septuagint proved Jesus used leavened bread for the passover. That's impossible. The vulgate is not the septuagint and was written centuries after the septuagint. Scholars are reasonably confident that the septuagint was written about 300 years before the birth of Christ, and by 72 Jewish scholars.
Again, where are you getting this fiction?

 

[Moriah's Song]

The New Testament was originally written in Greek