HERESY?

[Moriah's Song]

You do realize that in scripture leaven represents sin do you not?

Do you realize that you just called Jesus a liar?

Jesus spoke those words. I just posted what He said.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you realize that you just called Jesus a liar?

Jesus spoke those words. I just posted what He wrote.

the same jesus who said to beware of the leaven of the pharisees.

and what about paul?

1. 1 Corinthians 5:6
   Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
   
   
2. 1 Corinthians 5:7
   Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
   
   
3. Galatians 5:9
   A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

 

[farouk]

Is your last paragraph the bone of contention?
Is this convo about what type of bread is used at communion?

@GodsGrace The NT believer is not under the law in any case (Hebrews 7.12; 7.19)...

 

[GodsGrace]

Provide a verse and stop telling lies.

Because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are lying.

Also, I'd like to keep this thread in a pleasant state of discussion.

We're here to discuss biblical matters, not to insult each other.

 

[Cassandra]

@GodsGrace The NT believer is not under the law in any case (Hebrews 7.12; 7.19)...

I thought when you guys argue about what is under the law and what isn't, it refers to the time before Jesus death, and when He dies, all of that stuff is gone

 

[farouk]

I thought when you guys argue about what is under the law and what isn't, it refers to the time before Jesus death, and when He dies, all of that stuff is gone

@Cassandra This was kind of my point, I guess...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are fighting a losing battle.
On Thursday, at the Passover meal for Christ they used leavened bread....look up the Greek word used for bread....Leavened...daily bread.
Then the normal Passover meal that would occur on Friday was a Seder meal and they used unleavened bread.

please show us in the OT where leavened bread was authorised for use on the passover mean/feast of unleavened bread

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The world reckons the beginning of the day as sunrise, but the Jews have always reckoned the beginning of the day as sunset based upon the account of creation. There was darkness in creation before there was light.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:3-5
This is why the Jewish feasts start at sundown the day before the calendar day.

yes.

But it still does not tell us what day 1 us.

what we know is he had the Passover meal to celebrate the feast of unleavened bread with his disciples. called the last supper.

That evening he was arrested.

the next morning he was brought before pilot. And later that afternoon he was crucified.

He died before dark, because they wanted to remove him before the sabbath

so what day was it? that is the question.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you realize that you just called Jesus a liar?

Jesus spoke those words. I just posted what He said.

You said he was the bread of life.

If leaven represents sin. And paul calls us unleavened bread.

well then.. I must go with what the word says.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are lying.

Also, I'd like to keep this thread in a pleasant state of discussion.

We're here to discuss biblical matters, not to insult each other.

Of course not, but asserting that something is found in scripture, when it isn't is either a lie or just a proof of ignorance. When someone accuses you of saying something that you've never said, or of believing things which you don't believe, that person is giving false testimony and literally trampling on yours to give themselves the appearance of righteousness. I leave vengeance to my God, He will repay, but if you want to abide with sin that's your loss.

To be specific this is what Moriah posted :
"The important thing is that the 70 scholars of the Septuagint translated that word "bread" as "artos" in all 77 of those verses in the NT's Last Supper even before Jesus was crucified and further mentioned by the writers who spoke of the "communion" as taught by the authors in the Epistles."
The New Testament is not in the Septuagint because it didn't exist when the septuagint was written. The statement is not true, but false. If this an innocent mistake born of ignorance, then the poster should stop arguing from error, but continuing to assert a false doctrine based upon proven error is just prevarication.
How exactly do you benefit in biblical discussion by tolerating lies?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you realize that you just called Jesus a liar?

Jesus spoke those words. I just posted what He said.

by the way if you look up the greek translated unleavened bread. The greek word literally means unleavened, or fermented.

Everything in the meal was literally to be without leaven. Not just the bread.. The translators just added the word bread.

either way, It is the feast of unleaven, If they had leaven there, they were in sin according to the law..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I thought when you guys argue about what is under the law and what isn't, it refers to the time before Jesus death, and when He dies, all of that stuff is gone

context always has to be taken.

Passover and unleavened bread (the feast) were OT Jewish celebrations. which were contained in the law.

The lords supper. Is a NT celebration.

One looks back to Egypt. the other looks back to the cross

 

[Grailhunter]

Duh. You claimed that the septuagint proved Jesus used leavened bread for the passover. That's impossible. The vulgate is not the septuagint and was written centuries after the septuagint. Scholars are reasonably confident that the septuagint was written about 300 years before the birth of Christ, and by 72 Jewish scholars.
Again, where are you getting this fiction?

Well it is easy to get the timeline mixed up regarding the Septuagint and the story behind it.
Around 285 BC Ptolemy II issued commands for a portion of the Hebrew Bible (Pentateuch) to be translated to Greek. His interest in the Hebrew Bible was to include it in the Great Library of Alexandria.

The first five books were translated over the next few decades but the rest of the Hebrew Bible took around a century.

The tradition of the 72 Jewish scholars translating the Hebrew Bible independently and in the end that they all agreed is a little less certain.

The leavened bread is just a matter of Koine Greek....the Greek word for the bread used at the Last Supper on Thursday is defined as leavened. Unleavened bread is a different word and would be used for the actual Jewish Seder meal on Friday evening.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are lying.

Also, I'd like to keep this thread in a pleasant state of discussion.

We're here to discuss biblical matters, not to insult each other.

That wasn't insult, but factual. A liar
tells lies. Do you want a definition? If you want to be christ like, you should walk as He did and Christ didn't tolerate lies.

 

[Cassandra]

context always has to be taken.

Passover and unleavened bread (the feast) were OT Jewish celebrations. which were contained in the law.

The lords supper. Is a NT celebration.

One looks back to Egypt. the other looks back to the cross

You mean forward to the Cross. Hadn't happened yet. Farouk mentioned we were not under law, and I was just stating that the way folk argue that happened (law removed) was after Christ, not before, and these dinners were before,
That is why I brought the point up.(BTW, except for ceremonial, it is not my belief that the Law was done away with.)

 

[Cassandra]

That wasn't insult, but factual. A liar
tells lies. Do you want a definition? If you want to be christ like, you should walk as He did and Christ didn't tolerate lies.

If someone truly believes something and they tell it, they are not lying, just misinformed.

Please be careful of word choice, so you don't get into trouble with the moderators.

(I agree with you about the bread being unleavened.)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If someone truly believes something and they tell it, they are not lying, just misinformed.

Please be careful of word choice, so you don't get into trouble with the moderators.

(I agree with you about the bread being unleavened.)

to be a devils advocate.

She did say that the Mathew account was written in the Septuagint. and she has not yet admitted she made a mistake.

that I believe is what the argument is about.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Well it is easy to get the timeline mixed up regarding the Septuagint and the story behind it.

Absolutely! Good job!

Quote:
HISTORY OF BIBLE TRANSLATIONS

The Old Testament in Greek: 3rd c. BC - 3rd c. AD
There is no need for any part of the Bible to be translated until a community of Jews, in the Diaspora, forget their Hebrew. For the Jews of Alexandria, in the 3rd century BC, Greek is the first language. They undertake the translation of the Old Testament now known as the Septuagint.

Five centuries later the early Christians, who use Greek for their own New Testament, need to read both Old and New Testaments - for they see themselves as the inheritors of the Old Testament tradition. It is essential for their arguments, when debating with Jewish rabbis, that they have an accurate understanding of the original Hebrew. Their need prompts the great work of biblical scholarship undertaken by Origen in the 3rd century AD.

In his Hexapla (from the Greek word for 'sixfold') Origen arranges six versions of the Old Testament in parallel columns for comparative study. The first column is the original Hebrew; next comes a transliteration of this in Greek letters, so that Christians can pronounce the Hebrew text; this is followed by the Septuagint, and then by Greek translations by Christian scholars.

When it comes to the Psalms, Origen adds a further two versions. One of them is the text of a scroll which he has himself discovered in a jar in the valley of the Jordan - exactly as with the Dead Sea Scrolls in our own time..........

(Note:This article does a complete list of the translations from the Septuagint up until the present day but was too long for it here. You can get the full article at the link below)​

Erasmus, Luther and Tyndale: 1516-1536

Luther's interest in translating the New Testament from the original Greek into German has been stimulated, in 1518, by the arrival in Wittenberg of a new young professor, Philip Melanchthon.


Read more: HISTORY OF BIBLE TRANSLATIONS

 

[Grailhunter]

Absolutely! Good job!

Quote:
HISTORY OF BIBLE TRANSLATIONS

The Old Testament in Greek: 3rd c. BC - 3rd c. AD
There is no need for any part of the Bible to be translated until a community of Jews, in the Diaspora, forget their Hebrew. For the Jews of Alexandria, in the 3rd century BC, Greek is the first language. They undertake the translation of the Old Testament now known as the Septuagint.

Five centuries later the early Christians, who use Greek for their own New Testament, need to read both Old and New Testaments - for they see themselves as the inheritors of the Old Testament tradition. It is essential for their arguments, when debating with Jewish rabbis, that they have an accurate understanding of the original Hebrew. Their need prompts the great work of biblical scholarship undertaken by Origen in the 3rd century AD.

In his Hexapla (from the Greek word for 'sixfold') Origen arranges six versions of the Old Testament in parallel columns for comparative study. The first column is the original Hebrew; next comes a transliteration of this in Greek letters, so that Christians can pronounce the Hebrew text; this is followed by the Septuagint, and then by Greek translations by Christian scholars.

When it comes to the Psalms, Origen adds a further two versions. One of them is the text of a scroll which he has himself discovered in a jar in the valley of the Jordan - exactly as with the Dead Sea Scrolls in our own time..........

(Note:This article does a complete list of the translations from the Septuagint up until the present day but was too long for it here. You can get the full article at the link below)​

Erasmus, Luther and Tyndale: 1516-1536

Luther's interest in translating the New Testament from the original Greek into German has been stimulated, in 1518, by the arrival in Wittenberg of a new young professor, Philip Melanchthon.


Read more: HISTORY OF BIBLE TRANSLATIONS

Correct, and the story of Origen is interesting as well as William Tyndale. LOL
The Septuagint was a good effort. It had some inaccuracies that Origen was trying to tackle and it sparked off some debates that continue to this day. It is hard to believe that we know more about the Hebrew language and Bible than the Jews did coming out of Persia.

 

[Moriah's Song]

and these dinners were before,

You are correct on that portion of your post. BUT the point that I was making is in an earlier post of the timeline on that Last Supper which was this....

Thursday evening and on into Friday morning
1. Jesus is in the upper room for His LAST SUPPER with His 12 disciples (the first members of the church)
2. The disciples eat of the leavened bread (autos/not...STRONGS G106:ἄζυμος, -όν, (ζύμη), Hebrew מַצָּה, unfermented, free from leaven; )
3. The New Covenant is revealed to the now 11 disciples.
4. They all go to the Mount of Olives.
5. They leave and go to the Garden of Gethsemane.
6. Judas reveals Jesus to the Jews that were looking for him.
7. Peter denies Jesus.

Sunrise Good Friday morning
8. Judas hanged himself.
9. Jesus goes before Pilate.
10. The ruling priest, the elders (12 tribal leaders?), the crowd, the Roman soldiers and the Bible scholars accuse Jesus.
11. The govenor frees Barabbas.
12. The Roman soldiers refer to Jesus as "King of the Jews" in a paradoxical manner because he really is our King.
13. Jesus carries His cross
14. A man from Cyrene carries the cross for Jesus.
15. The two criminals and Jesus go to Golgatha and are nailed to their crosses.
16. A placque is labeled "This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" and nailed to the cross.
17. The thief on the cross believes Jesus and says to the other..."Aren't you afraid of God seeing that you are condemned just as He is?"
18. Jesus promised the thief that he would be with the risen Christ in Paradise.
19. Jesus dies at 3:00 p.m. on Good Friday
20. Jesus arose from the dead on Easter Sunday

NOW, WHEN DID JESUS INSTITUTE THE NEW COVENANT IF HE DID NOT DO IT UNDER THE OLD COVENANT EVEN THOUGH THE SEPTUAGINTS TRANSCRIBED THE GREEK WORD AS LEAVENED BREAD AT THE LAST SUPPER??

The "Last Supper" had to have been instituted BEFORE he died; not AFTER and it was done on the Thurday evening not on Passover day of which He was the "Passover Lamb" hanging on that Friday.

Jesus was foretelling us, by using the word "leavened bread" that it too was a "new" way of doing things in place of the OT sacrificial system. (IMHO)