Church Bashing

[VictoryinJesus]

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

So I believe you, marks and I are that servant who was forgiven a debt we could not pay. Marks doesn’t think so, but he can’t say what the parable means because he says I won’t believe him if he tells me what it means. I think the prison is the outer darkness. So then a discussion ensued about how you have to know WHO the parable is for because it’s not for us, and you seemed to agree…

to me (only an opinion) it is about the keeping of the law. Words that stand out is doing all that is required. The man couldn’t do all that is required and begged his lord to have patience on him. Which makes me consider how the Lord waits for the precious Fruit of the Spirit(He left a remnant of the Spirit?): peace, love, patience, faith, long-suffering, temperance…. In the parable there is a lot of lack of patience when “you have need of patience”. Also at the beginning the man does not have the means to repay and is sold…Isaiah 52:2-7 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. [3] For thus saith the Lord, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money. [4] For thus saith the Lord God, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. [5] Now therefore, what have I here, saith the Lord, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the Lord ; and my name continually every day is blasphemed. [6] Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I. [7] How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

again consider all that is required, where For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:6-13 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? (Sounds like dragging them demanding repayment) [7] Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. [10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. [13] For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

So yeah…to me the parable is teaching if we are going to keep the whole law then we have to keep the whole and to not offend in any part…but instead pay a tremendous debt. To me it is not evil where He said we will go into prison until it is paid …because of the “till it be paid” and “you have sold yourselves for nothing”…the “till”meaning there is hope of getting out of prison in: whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Jesus had already come way down from the glory that he had with his Father before his natural birth into a very corruptible body in Bethlehem. This life in the flesh was his place of temptation, hell itself. He overcame it (his own little world of temptations) [John 16:33, I John 2:16-17] before he went to the cross!

Jesus had come down to this place where the dead dwell, the realm of the natural man: hell. Everyone here who has not been born again or born from above [John 3:3] is blind to the things of God and remains "dead" [in the place of the dead, in hell].

As Jesus put it:

"... Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

In the eyes of God and therefore of Jesus, anyone who could not see the Truth of God was effectively dead! Jesus came down into this mess subject to temptations like all men, but then he overcame everything that stood between him and his place with his Father. That included his corruptible body!

He also made it possible for those who had already sinned, and had really earned the death that they were in, to have real Life:

"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

The dead are simply dead. Those who have received the Life which Jesus brought have initially moved away from death but still having the ways of an unclean beast like those saved the Ark of Noah, they need to be cleaned up so as to become clean beasts and finally to have all of their beastly ways destroyed [killed... as in kill the 'old man']

Our God is the consuming fire able to clean the unclean and to kill the old man of us. But how many of us, like the three Hebrews are willing to trust God and will allow ourselves to be cast into the Consuming Fire knowing that that Fire will only burn up that which is evil, or that which leads to evil: the ways of men?

Agree. Thank you for an insightful post Amadeus. with all the uncertainties and struggles that come up, the last thing we probably should be doing is debating over this. To me though, in the midst of those struggles is setting your mind on who God is (I mean His nature). For example where Jesus Christ asked Peter “who do you say I am.” Sometimes I feel like Jonah who said “the weeds were wrapped around my head.”

 

[farouk]

to me (only an opinion) it is about the keeping of the law. Words that stand out is doing all that is required. The man couldn’t do all that is required and begged his lord to have patience on him. Which makes me consider how the Lord waits for the precious Fruit of the Spirit(He left a remnant of the Spirit?): peace, love, patience, faith, long-suffering, temperance…. In the parable there is a lot of lack of patience when “you have need of patience”. Also at the beginning the man does not have the means to repay and is sold…Isaiah 52:2-7 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. [3] For thus saith the Lord, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money. [4] For thus saith the Lord God, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. [5] Now therefore, what have I here, saith the Lord, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the Lord ; and my name continually every day is blasphemed. [6] Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I. [7] How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

again consider all that is required, where For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:6-13 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? (Sounds like dragging them demanding repayment) [7] Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. [10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. [13] For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

So yeah…to me the parable is teaching if we are going to keep the whole law then we have to keep the whole and to not offend in any part…but instead pay a tremendous debt. To me it is not evil where He said we will go into prison until it is paid …because of the “till it be paid” and “you have sold yourselves for nothing”…the “till”meaning there is hope of getting out of prison in: whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

Hi @VictoryinJesus Justification by faith really involves coming to the end of oneself, and not relying on oneself but on Another.....

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi @VictoryinJesus Justification by faith really involves coming to the end of oneself, and not relying on oneself but on Another.....

I’m always confused by the faith without works debate. Relying on another implies to be lead by the Spirit, and not our flesh? Surely everyone here could give testimonies of how being lead by the Spirit has changed them to not do things they once did. For me, saying forgive as you have been forgiven is not earning but receiving.

 

[farouk]

I’m always confused by the faith without works debate. Relying on another implies to be lead by the Spirit, and not our flesh? Surely everyone here could give testimonies of how being lead by the Spirit has changed them to not do things they once did. For me, saying forgive as you have been forgiven is not earning but receiving.

"Not of works" (Ephesians 2.9) is followed by "we are His workmanship" (Ephesians 2.10)...

 

[Lambano]

That might be difficult. Well, I guess it has been difficult. So much so that men just decide the outer darkness is the lake of fire because they don’t know what to do with it. But that just makes no sense to me so I can’t accept it.

In my personal eschatological understanding (which Enoch disagrees with), I identify the prison and the outer darkness with Hades in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The place where the dead wait for the resurrection to final judgment. It's apparently not a nice place, at least not in the part of town where the Rich Man went. In the end, Death and Hades get destroyed in the incinerator called the Lake of Fire.

Anyway, that's my understanding. Perhaps that can inform your own understanding. And I apologize for doing a poor job of seeking to understand rather than to be understood.

 

[Lambano]

So I believe you, marks and I are that servant who was forgiven a debt we could not pay. Marks doesn’t think so, but he can’t say what the parable means because he says I won’t believe him if he tells me what it means. I think the prison is the outer darkness. So then a discussion ensued about how you have to know WHO the parable is for because it’s not for us, and you seemed to agree…

Is this something that actually happens, or does Jesus just want His followers contemplating what could happen if God decided to treat us the way we treat each other?

No, Jesus is clearly talking to us, telling us how He expects us to behave. I'm guessing Mark rejects this because of the key question I asked at the very end. That's the question that bothers many people. How do you read it?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The wages of sin is death. Our discussion really hinges on our definition of death. That last farthing is the last final breath. Then oblivion. Debt paid. Life given.

But all sin can be forgiven except one. Is holding an unforgiveness toward someone not covered in the word “all?”
This comes back to making a distinction between one learning righteousness and one walking in holiness. And to the verse about receiving more or less stripes.
It also once again comes back to the humility of seeing yourself clearly and not judging since you will be judged as you judge.

 

[Brakelite]

But all sin can be forgiven except one. Is holding an unforgiveness toward someone not covered in the word “all?”
This comes back to making a distinction between one learning righteousness and one walking in holiness. And to the verse about receiving more or less stripes.
It also once again comes back to the humility of seeing yourself clearly and not judging since you will be judged as you judge.

I thought we were talking about the second death, not the first. Yes, all sin is already forgiven. Except as you say, the blasphemy against the holy Spirit. That is the sin of unbelief that rejects the forgiveness already offered.
But once Christ comes and takes His bride to meet the Father, probation is over. There's no further opportunities for repentance. There's no get out of jail free card.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, Jesus is clearly talking to us, telling us how He expects us to behave. I'm guessing Mark rejects this because of the key question I asked at the very end. That's the question that bothers many people. How do you read it?

I think it will actually happen to some of us. We will receive some stripes.
But I also, if you haven’t heard, think there’s a difference between learning and being practiced in righteousness versus walking in holiness and that more is required to whoever more is given.
Humility and not judging and mercifulness are the safest bet for any man. They come of seeing yourself truly.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I thought we were talking about the second death, not the first. Yes, all sin is already forgiven. Except as you say, the blasphemy against the holy Spirit. That is the sin of unbelief that rejects the forgiveness already offered.
But once Christ comes and takes His bride to meet the Father, probation is over. There's no further opportunities for repentance. There's no get out of jail free card.

You have judged the man who holds some unforgiveness without mercy and that isn’t wisdom.
If a man is thrown into prison, receives some stripes, to come out pure, and you have just judged him worthy of death for holding unforgiveness and anger, even after reading the parable, you may receive more stripes/be there longer than him because of your judgement. He might now be first and you last. That’s the danger of some doctrines. They teach men to make judgements that harm themselves. Don’t judge anything before the time.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There's no get out of jail free card.

Yes, I think that’s the point of the parable. Jesus says he won’t come out until he pays the last farthing. And my response is, forgive him Father, he doesn’t know what he is doing to himself.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I thought we were talking about the second death, not the first.

I don’t think the outer darkness is the second death.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Nah, don't you mind me. I'll just grab a beer and sit back and watch two of my favorite people on this board having fun doing what they enjoy doing and sassing one another. I keep forgetting I don't need to fix people who have wrong ideas.

Which parable were you and MarkS talking about? With all the excitement, I kind of lost track.

Im learning when to reply and when to not reply. I’m also learning how to not be pulled into obfuscation. I’ve made great strides over the past week or so.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

For me, saying forgive as you have been forgiven is not earning but receiving.

Very good…!

 

[marks]

While would not dismiss the theological contradictions that are derived from scripture, I started off this sub-thread with the question of, how did Judas die? Did he hang himself, per Matthew, or fall and splatter his guts out, per Acts? You have to invent something not in the text to reconcile them, like the theory that the rope broke and he was in a very tall tree... My point is that such inventions should not be necessary.

Both happened, the details aren't important to me. He hung himself, fell, and splattered his guts. No inventions needed, only, just accept what the Bible says.

Much love!

 

[marks]

An interesting point. In the parable of the Unforgiving Servant, he owed 10,000 talents. One commentary mentioned that this was more than the national budget of Rome at that time. Where's he going to get that kind of money? As I told Nancy, it may be that there are opportunities for repentance in Hades, the asylum for the theologically insane. But where the scripture is silent, I must be silent also.

And where it says, It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment? For me that refutes this idea.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I’m always confused by the faith without works debate. Relying on another implies to be lead by the Spirit, and not our flesh? Surely everyone here could give testimonies of how being lead by the Spirit has changed them to not do things they once did. For me, saying forgive as you have been forgiven is not earning but receiving.

And being forgiven comes first in this passage. First we are forgiven by God, NOT because we've forgiven others, but because we've trusted in Christ. And having trusted, and having been forgiven, we are instructed to then forgive others, as we've already been forgiven.

Much love!

 

[marks]

“the sons of the kingdom

The sons of the kingdom, or the sons of God? Is there a difference?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Maybe they were just excluded from the feast,

This has also occurred to me.

Much love!