Church Bashing

[Lambano]

But I also, if you haven’t heard, think there’s a difference between learning and being practiced in righteousness versus walking in holiness and that more is required to whoever more is given.
Humility and not judging and mercifulness are the safest bet for any man. They come of seeing yourself truly.

I should've asked you earlier: How does your understanding of Holiness affect your everyday walk with God?

Do you see any cross-traffic or overlap between righteousness and holiness, or do you see them as orthogonal to each other?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Would this be along the lines of a Purgatory?

Will the Servant be freed after the appropriate number of stripes? Even if the trillion-dollar debt is not paid?

It sounds like a purgatorial type place to me when I read the parable.

That’s what I hope. Otherwise, I can’t comprehend the purpose of why he was thrown into prison rather than the lake of fire.

 

[marks]

I would've chosen the second option: Jesus wants us to contemplate what could happen if God treated us the way we treat each other. Remember, Jesus is teaching the Children of God what behavior is expected of Children of God.

We nonetheless learn that lesson from the parable, in the same way we learn about God's amazing love and forgiveness and restoration in the pages of Isaiah, who prophesied primarily to Israel, concerning them. But this is still our God, and His Word displays His graciousness regardless. But we know that being regathered to the promised land will be done for Israel. The prophet addressed them. The resurrected Gentile church is not promised land plots in the Middle East, and Israel was. But through them, we learn God's wonderous love.

Through the parables, through the sermon on the mount, we learn about God, and His intentions for His people, even while recognizing that this is not a new law given to the Body of Christ. While the passages are addressed to others, we still receive application to ourselves, only, we shouldn't put ourselves as if we are those others, that just confuses things.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

It sounds like a purgatorial type place to me when I read the parable.

That’s what I hope. Otherwise, I can’t comprehend the purpose of why he was thrown into prison rather than the lake of fire.

Fair 'nuff.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I would've chosen the second option: Jesus wants us to contemplate what could happen if God treated us the way we treat each other. Remember, Jesus is teaching the Children of God what behavior is expected of Children of God.

So…scaring us straight but not REALLY meaning it?

Here’s what I think. It scares us so we try to explain it away, because even a cursory examination of myself shows me how I can say I forgive but the resentment and anger just pops up again like a freakin whack-a-mole. And each time I’m murdering them again??

So, it scares me. I see I’m not doing what He says. And He SEES IT. What now? Please tell me, what now?? I tried for years, I can’t do what He says I have to do to not be thrown in prison. He is asking the impossible of me. Why would He do that?? And don’t say it’s possible for me, it’s not.

 

[Lambano]

So…scaring us straight but not REALLY meaning it?

Here’s what I think. It scares us so we try to explain it away, because even a cursory examination of myself shows me how I can say I forgive but the resentment and anger just pops up again like a freakin whack-a-mole. And each time I’m murdering them again??

So, it scares me. I see I’m not doing what He says. And He SEES IT. What now? Please tell me, what now?? I tried for years, I can’t do what He says I have to do to not be thrown in prison. He is asking the impossible of me. Why would He do that?? And don’t say it’s possible for me, it’s not.

Mmm. I don't like a fear-based relationship. It helps that I've been hugged and told I'm loved (and you said you have too), so I can contemplate this as a purely hypothetical situation.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Mmm. I don't like a fear-based relationship. It helps that I've been hugged and told I'm loved (and you said you have too), so I can contemplate this as a purely hypothetical situation.

Yes, okay, it’s just hypothetical. Let’s go with that.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, okay, it’s just hypothetical. Let’s go with that.

OR…
Maybe I’m supposed to see it is impossible for a reason…

 

[amadeus]

Agree. Thank you for an insightful post Amadeus. with all the uncertainties and struggles that come up, the last thing we probably should be doing is debating over this. To me though, in the midst of those struggles is setting your mind on who God is (I mean His nature). For example where Jesus Christ asked Peter “who do you say I am.” Sometimes I feel like Jonah who said “the weeds were wrapped around my head.”

Indeed! What can a person see from inside the belly of a fish? Wherefrom come the "eyes to see"?

 

[Lambano]

OR…
Maybe I’m supposed to see it is impossible for a reason…

"Impossible" is the lens through which the Reformed wing of Protestantism views Jesus's teachings like the Sermon on the Mount, etc. If you know it's impossible, you'll humbly ask Father to forgive you and save you and make you His daughter because you know you can't save yourself. There's something to be said for that.

 

[amadeus]

I’m always confused by the faith without works debate. Relying on another implies to be lead by the Spirit, and not our flesh? Surely everyone here could give testimonies of how being lead by the Spirit has changed them to not do things they once did. For me, saying forgive as you have been forgiven is not earning but receiving.

I usually try to leave that debate [faith and works] alone anymore. God keeps on reminding me that the increase, if there is one, comes from Him!

Our journey is not over when we meet Jesus and start to follow him. Consider his closest followers, the twelve who were with him hearing his words seemingly daily for 3½ years... then when they arrested Jesus what did all of them do?

"...Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled" Matt 26:56

Remember salvation in the Ark of Noah. Unclean, clean beasts and 8 people saved from the flood waters of death... Where to from there when they came out of the ark? Did anyone serve God after that?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

"Impossible" is the lens through which the Reformed wing of Protestantism views Jesus's teachings like the Sermon on the Mount, etc. If you know it's impossible, you'll humbly ask Father to forgive you and save you. There's something to be said for that.

Yes, there is. But aren’t all things possible with God? With men it’s impossible, yes.
Do you suppose they’ll ever let us out of the nursery?

 

[BarneyFife]

No, it shows a servant having his debt reinstated. It does not show a child of God being returned to unreconciled. If anything, this is "suspended reconciliation", that is, the servant will be released once the dept is paid. It does not fit the doctrines of the body of Christ.

Much love!

The "doctrines of the body of Christ?"

I thought that all Scripture is inspired of God and is profitable for doctrine, even in the age of the early church when there was no New Testament.

 

[marks]

So…scaring us straight but not REALLY meaning it?

Here’s what I think. It scares us so we try to explain it away, because even a cursory examination of myself shows me how I can say I forgive but the resentment and anger just pops up again like a freakin whack-a-mole. And each time I’m murdering them again??

So, it scares me. I see I’m not doing what He says. And He SEES IT. What now? Please tell me, what now?? I tried for years, I can’t do what He says I have to do to not be thrown in prison. He is asking the impossible of me. Why would He do that?? And don’t say it’s possible for me, it’s not.

Trust that Jesus has completely reconciled you to God. That all your sin is truly gone. That the sin you still see in your life is in your flesh, and you are not your flesh. You are the new creature, born from God, if in fact you are. I'm not saying you are not, I merely don't want to mislead. Should you come to realize that you have not been reborn, then we just have a different starting point is all.

But I'm assuming you are, I think you have been, but over-identify with your flesh.

When we sin - works outside of faith - works of flesh - if we identify ourselves as the source of the sin, we identify ourselves with our flesh, and not our spirit that was born from God. We identify ourselves with the Adamic man, the fleshy man, and so we wear his guilt, and his shame, and his condemnation, and his powerlessness. And this means we are not trusting that God has freed us from our sin through death.

If we reserve the meaning of "death" as when we close our eyes to everything, and not the Biblical use of 'separation', we can see our death in Christ as something figurative, a metaphor, but not an actual death.

Isaiah and Jeremiah both spoke of "our sins testify against us", and if we are walking by sight and not by faith that's what we see, we see our sins declaring we are still fleshy sinners. But we are not. We are born of God, not born of Adam. We've died, passing from death into life. We've been separated from our flesh, passing from separation from God to union with God.

And that union is fully based on the efficacy of Jesus death in sending away our sins, and His presence in us, making His righteousness ours. Having been separated from the fleshy sinner, we in fact ARE free from sin, from the power of sin.

When we trust in Jesus - alone, not in combo with something we do - to have truly freed us from both the power and condemnation of sin, this is the trust that God intends for us. We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, and by this same faith we have access into the grace in which we stand (Romans 5:1).

When we trust in the compete and total and forever reconciliation purchased for us by Jesus in His dying, we are free to live and walk in that unity with God. Opening ourselves fully to Him, because we know now that He will never be against us, allows us to stand in grace. Grace is our foundation. Not self-approval. We stand in grace. And having done all, to stand.

Not long ago I went through a dark time, a couple of weeks, and coming out of it I asked God, why have I not heard from you the same as other times? Because you were afraid of Me. Not long after I asked Him, How do I stay here? (that is, how do I not fall out of my conscious and ongoing communion with God?) Don't shut Me out.

We drift into the flesh, for all the reasons we do. If we begin to identify with our flesh, we accept the condemnation, and what goes with it . . . separation from God, though we are not separated from Him, only living a lie of the flesh.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Yes, there is. But aren’t all things possible with God? With men it’s impossible, yes.
Do you suppose they’ll ever let us out of the nursery?

All things are possible, but when we are in the flesh like we are now? You've already figured out they're not possible for you.

 

[marks]

The "doctrines of the body of Christ?"

I thought that all Scripture is inspired of God and is profitable for doctrine, even in the age of the early church when there was no New Testament.

I think I worded that poorly.

The story of the parable conflicts with what the Bible tells us about those who are the body of Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

All things are possible, but when we are in the flesh like we are now? You've already figured out they're not possible for you.

If you walk in the Spirit, you will not do the works of the flesh.

Walking in the Spirit stops sin in it's tracks. I believe our difficulty is remaining in that Spirit walk. A contrary thing happens - external threat, internal desire, or fear, or whatever it may be - and if we maintain our trusting in God, we will maintain our walking in the Spirit. But then we hear a flesh-thought in our minds, and fail to stop it, and instead let it continue, and grow stronger.

What we don't realize is that this is the mind of the flesh, a man long gone, but his patterns remain. So then, the check engine light comes on, and I twinge over it, the smallest fear response, it's not Spirit, it's fleshy. I can either remind myself God is caring for my needs, and I don't have to worry about a thing. That's taking the thought captive to the obedience of Christ. I'm serving Christ, not the fears of my flesh.

Or I can let the next thought come in . . . what will this cost, and can I afford it? Is my car going to leave me stranded? Will I even have a car? What will I do to get around?? And the flesh comes in like a flood.

I think the common Christian experience is to live in these fleshy thoughts much of the time, failing to realize that fully trusting Jesus brings a very different inner life.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Yes, there is. But aren’t all things possible with God? With men it’s impossible, yes.
Do you suppose they’ll ever let us out of the nursery?

Admit your inability and surrender to Him sister. What is impossible for God? Will He leave you hanging about anything really important... really essential?

Some people insist on coming out of the nursery, to leave all of milk behind when really that is all they are presently able to handle. If we understand that, and we then lean on Him, will He not take up all of the necessary slack?

We should not be insisting on a steak dinner when we still have no teeth in our mouths.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

All things are possible, but when we are in the flesh like we are now? You've already figured out they're not possible for you.

But it says walk in the Spirit so you won’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh. It says God blesses those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness. It says to ask for what you see you lack. It says your righteousness must exceed. It says anger in my heart is murder and no murderers will be allowed “there.” It says if I don’t forgive from my whack-a-mole heart I won’t be forgiven. Pick up my cross and follow, must I die on that cross? All of it is impossible? Even if I believe it’s all the truth and ask for what I see I lack? It’s still impossible for God to make me truly walk in the Spirit (whatever that means) so I won’t sin in the lusts of my flesh? Can God do it if I believe and ask? Why did I try so hard? Shouldn’t I just have believed it all and asked for what I saw I lacked?

 

[amadeus]

The "doctrines of the body of Christ?"

I thought that all Scripture is inspired of God and is profitable for doctrine, even in the age of the early church when there was no New Testament.

Someone is always teaching them... or teaching what I guess they would call the "doctrines of the body of Christ?". More of those ATs according to someone! What does God say?