Belantos wrote:
“You are missing the point of the Proverbs passage. It is about therighteous person returning to God everytime he falls. The Matthew passage is unrelated as it talksabout forgiving an offending brother. You forgive only when there is repentance.”
First off, under grace through faith the righteous don’tfall from grace. The blood of Christdoesn’t cover sins, then uncover them when you do them until you repent. All sins are covered by the blood of JesusChrist. Hebrews 10:10, 12 and 14 arewitness to that. Second, if you believethat when Peter asked about forgiveness seven times, he didn’t have Proverbs 23in mind, ok. It seems like an unlikelycoincidence that he just happened to pick that number.
That Proverb passage doesn't talk about falling from grace, but falling from the path of righteousness, that is, committing sin.
Belantos wrote:
“Oh, sure it is too hardto follow the Torah, which, according to Paul is perfect and good, and by ityou know what sin is. It is way too hard not to rape, not to have sex with yourmother, sister, not to murder your neighbour, etc. They are all very hard, sobetter not do them.”
I for one do not feel it is too hard not to rape, nor havesex with your family members, nor murder my neighbor. So I don’t even know why it would be in yourheart to bring them up. Frankly, I findthese the easiest parts of the law to keep. These aren’t the problem for most people. If you are having a problem with them, thenyou better hope that grace covers them.
As I pointed our, both James and Paul noted if you keep onepoint of the Law, you must keep the whole Law. I’m not going to list the whole Law, but let’s look at some things theLaw says:
- You can’t eat a chicken if she has chicks (Deu 22:67). If someone else takes it and you eat it, you were a part of that sin.
- If you build a house, it must have a battlement (Deu 22:8). If someone else built it and you live in it, you are living in a house that was built against the Law.
- You can’t plant one type of crop next to another (Deu 22:9). In other words, if you have a garden, it must be all of one type of produce.
- You can’t wear polyester or any other piece of clothing that is made with more than one type of fiber. Furthermore, you can’t wear one piece of clothing made of cotton (for example) and another made of wool or silk. (Deu 22:11).
- You can’t work on Saturday (Exo 31:15).
- You cannot eat rabbit, any type of meat from a pig (Lev 11:5-9), you can’t even touch a pig (or a football because it is made from a pig’s hide).
- You cannot eat catfish, shrimp, crabs, lobster mussels, clams, shark (Lev 11:9-12).
- If you are a woman and its that time of the month, you can’t go to Church. No one can touch you nor touch anything you touch. (Lev 15).
- If you are blind, lame, have a flat nose, a broken foot or hand, a crooked back, a black eye, have an open wound or are impotent, you can’t a priest, nor can you give an offering yourself. If you are a dwarf, you couldn’t either (Lev 21:17). Today, that would also mean be any part of the ministry.
- You can’t lie (Pro 6:17). (Have you ever said, “I don’t have a thing to wear”, “I’ve got a million things to do today” or “There’s nothing to eat”? Unless your closets and drawers are empty, you really have 1,000,000 chores and your fridge and pantry has nothing – not even half a bottle of ketchup, you lied.)
- If you think having sex in any way shape of form with a woman other than your wife. (Mat 5:28) If you look at a woman and simply admire her beauty, you have lusted to a degree. If you dream about having sex with another woman while you are sleeping, you lusted. Just because it was unintentional doesn’t mean you didn’t have those thoughts.
Are you suggesting that you actually understand these laws and applying them in the proper way? I am not going to answer each of them, only show you by a few examples where you go wrong:
1.
Deut 22:6-7 (67 was a typo) - Did you actually read the passage in context?
6 “
If you happen to come upon a bird’s nest along the way, in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs, and the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young; 7 you shall certainly let the mother go, but the young you may take for yourself, in order that it may be well with you and that you may prolong your days.
It means you are not to destroy nature just because you are hungry. You are to let the mother live, for she can lay more eggs and produce offspring. If you kill the mother, you kill that "lineage". Doesn't this correspond to the idea of "harvesting"? What is so hard about it?
2.
Deut 22:8 - Do you understand what this means? Ancient times the housetops were flat and they were also utilised for living. Building parapet around it made was vital for the sake of safety. What is so hard about this law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapet
... and it is just getting better!
3.
Deut 22:9 - The idea of crop rotation is very old. Before the introduction of artificial fertilisers you had to keep changing the seed you sew every time, else the soil became exhausted. You don't need to sow the same seed in your entire garden, you can sub-partition it. Do you sow more than one seed in the same area? I wouldn't. This law is a must. What is hard about it?
4.
Deut 22:11 - Some of the laws don't make any sense by themselves, but they are given because they carry spiritual meaning. The meaning is "Be straight!", Mean what you say and say what you mean. As Jesus said,
Matthew 5:37
But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.
A similar law is that you don't cut the corners of your hair. By itself it makes no sense, but it corresponds to the law about leaving the corners of your filed unharvested in order that the poor could obtain food. These laws are about doing charity, taking care of the poor.
What is so hard about it?
5. Work on the Sabbath
Exodus 16:29
See, the LORD has given you the sabbath...
The Sabbath was given to man, not man to the Sabbath. It meant it exists for the benefit of people. You work for six days and rest on the Sabbath. If you don't, you quickly burn out.
Besides, the Sabbath was sanctified by God, and even He Himself observed it. According to Jewish commentaries on Genesis, Adam and Eve were spared only because they sinned on the Sabbath, which God sanctified, and the Sabbath (symbolically) made intercession on their behalf.
What is so hard about it? Unless your employer demands it, but then how come Jews are able to observe it, but not you?
I let you work out the rest. If you don't understand them ask the Jews.
I fully understand what may be attempted next. Someone willstart picking apart this list and claim that they don’t apply today (and undergrace, I agree), how I took it out of context or claim that I take things toofar. You might be able to say that someof these things aren’t sins or aren’t big sins. Please don’t waste your time. Youmay be able to find fault with some things in this list. You also may be able to say, “I’m not guiltyof that point”. But that’s not thepoint. My point is simple. Can you do all these things? DO you follow all these laws? If not, you are guilty of the whole law. That includes these points and every otherpoint I didn’t list.
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There are two equally valid views here: [/font]
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1. The Torah only applies to those who convert to Judaism (hence circumcision). According to the Jerusalem council Gentile converts were not required to convert to Judaism for the sake of "salvation". They were obliged to observe the Noahide laws plus whatever their local synagogues added, for the law always had to be applied to given situations. Then there were the laws for the "ger" in Lev. 17-18.[/font]
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2. God gave the Torah to the Jewish people to take it as a light to the Gentiles. Living under the Torah meant life, light and prosperity. Not having the Torah the Gentiles lived in the valley of death, in darkness and in desolation. The prophecy says, those who lived in darkness see a great light - the Torah is coming to them.[/font]
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Isaiah 9:2The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them.
The reference is to the Torah Man, the Messiah coming to the Gentiles and teaching them the ways of righteousness. Consider the following verses:
Isaiah 2:
3 And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Zech. 14:
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
Isa. 66:
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
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Yes, I don't think there is anything hard about the Torah. What might have been hard would have been all the additional Rabbinic commandments that were design as a hedge around the Torah. For example, I would find it hard to live apart from my wife for a whole year once I her. This is a Rabbinic rule designed to give time for the husband to prepare a home for his wife and study the Torah.
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So now let’s talk about repenting from sins. If you believe that repenting means that eachand every time you sin, you must repent from that particular sin. If you believe that repentance means that youmust never do that sin again, then so be it. You can’t ever do any of these things again.
Repentance means you die to your life of sin and live in the newness of life. If you continue in sin after you supposedly "repented", your repentance was not real.
Now, this thread is dealing with homosexuality. If you are a homosexual and you must give upthat sin, then if the Bible is right, you must also never tell another lieagain OR eat a ham sandwich. That is,unless grace really does cover ALL sins whether you do them or not and whetheryou do them intentionally or unintentionally. Again, I have said before, I amnot defending any sin. I am defendinggrace. I am also not saying you don’thave to repent from being a sinner. I amsaying that everyone sins even after repentance from being a sinner.
There are some other things I didn’t cover. I was told I didn’t understand grace and itwas implied or said that I am wrong or have wrongly considered Romans 6. I’m going to leave those alone for now. I believe what I wrote is enough for the timebeing.
There are different severity of sins. There is sin unto death and there is sin that is not unto death. Homosexual act is not in the same category with lies.
No, you are not defending grace, but you are pretending it is a license to sin. Grace is not the same as the tolerance of sin.
