Homosexuality

[FHII]

I just told you that I am under the New Covenant, not THE LAW of Moses that you are referring to.

You clearly implied that we all live in sin. You should read your own posts. I am not a puppet of Satan. Are you?

Technically you didn't say what that new covenant was. You said Matthew to Revelation. That's not a covenant and that's not the New Covenant. The New Covenant is grace through faith through the death of Jesus Christ. Through this covenant God no longer remembers our sins and iniquities. All things have become lawfull. That includes homosexuality, therefore, how do you get away wearing mixed cloth if you are under the New Covenant, yet a homosexual has to stop their sin against the Law of Moses? You cannot rely on 1 Cor 6 because that same chapter says that all those things are lawful.


I implied that we all live in sin, and that is true despite you saying you don't. Once again, when did I say or imply it was ok?

 

[Duckybill]

[font="Verdana][size="3"]Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.[/size][/font]

And He did fulfill them. He obeyed it perfectly.

Galatians 5:18 (ESV)
[sup]18 [/sup]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[aspen]

And He did fulfill them. He obeyed it perfectly.

Galatians 5:18 (ESV)
[sup]18 [/sup]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Christ was able to fulfill the Law because He loved perfectly - the law is still valid - we are to love like He loved and the fulfillment of the Law will follow.

Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

 

[Duckybill]

Technically you didn't say what that new covenant was. You said Matthew to Revelation. That's not a covenant and that's not the New Covenant. The New Covenant is grace through faith through the death of Jesus Christ. Through this covenant God no longer remembers our sins and iniquities.

Your attempt to chop up the NT noted. Again you imply we can live in sin and still be Christians.

All things have become lawfull.

You have a license to sin? I don't.

That includes homosexuality,

Nope.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

therefore, how do you get away wearing mixed cloth if you are under the New Covenant, yet a homosexual has to stop their sin against the Law of Moses? You cannot rely on 1 Cor 6 because that same chapter says that all those things are lawful.

How Satanic!

I implied that we all live in sin, and that is true despite you saying you don't. Once again, when did I say or imply it was ok?

You are saying we can live in sin and still be Christians. That is a doctrine of demons.

Christ was able to fulfill the Law because He loved perfectly - the law is still valid - we are to love like He loved and the fulfillment of the Law will follow.

Whoa!!! Jesus didn't obey THE LAW perfectly? He did indeed. And thereby fulfilled it.

 

[aspen]

Whoa!!! Jesus didn't obey THE LAW perfectly? He did indeed. And thereby fulfilled it.

You need to read my post again:

[font="tahoma][size="6"]Christ was able to fulfill the Law[/size][/font][font="tahoma][size="4"] because He loved perfectly - the law is still valid - we are to love like He loved and the fulfillment of the Law will follow. Love is the fuel - the Law is the vehicle: Without Love the Law is dead. The Pharisees possessed the [/size]vehicle, but it had no fuel, because they were not teaching and practicing love. Arguing about which part isn't important anymore is missing the point and it actually speaks against Luther's idea that works is the fruit of faith.[/font]

 

[Duckybill]

[font="tahoma]the law is still valid - [/font][/color][/size][size="3"]

Are you saying we are bound to keep THE LAW of Moses?

 

[aspen]

Are you saying we are bound to keep THE LAW of Moses?

Absolutely.


Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”


Love is the key. If you love perfectly, you fulfill the Law of Moses. We are called to love perfectly. When we fail to do so, we need to repent. Notice that loving perfectly is not possible in this lifetime because we are still tempted to be selfish, therefore we still live by sinful patterns even when we are being sanctified in love by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Duckybill]

Absolutely.
[font="Verdana][size="3"]Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[/size][/font][font="Verdana] [/font] [font="Verdana][size="3"]Love is the key. If you love perfectly, you fulfill the Law of Moses.

Not the same Aspen. I'm referring to the MANY commands of THE LAW. You are not.

, therefore we still live by sinful patterns [/size][/font]

Speak for yourself. I am not Satan's puppet. Sin is by choice. We can't blame anyone else for living in sin. And we won't get by with it.

 

[aspen]

[font="'Book Antiqua"]Not the same Aspen. I'm referring to the MANY commands of THE LAW. You are not.
[/font]
[font="'Book Antiqua"]Actually I am. All the laws of Moses were implemented by God for two reasons - loving God and neighbor. Therefore, dietary and clothing laws were implemented to show fear (awe and respect) and love towards God, through the act of obedience - now we can simply show our love to God through loving Him and our neighbor, which is also obedience. Getting caught up in the details of what to wear and what to eat misses the point - which is love.

Speak for yourself. I am not Satan's puppet. Sin is by choice. We can't blame anyone else for living in sin. And we won't get by with it.

Ah, so admitting patterns of sin in our lives is equal to being a puppet of Satan? You sure give a lot of power away to Satan. If you live in a 1st world nation, you are living in luxury and often on the backs of those who live in 2nd and 3rd world countries - that alone is a pattern of sin.
[/font]

 

[Duckybill]

"Speak for yourself. I am not Satan's puppet. Sin is by choice. We can't blame anyone else for living in sin. And we won't get by with it."

Ah, so admitting patterns of sin in our lives is equal to being a puppet of Satan? You sure give a lot of power away to Satan. If you live in a 1st world nation, you are living in luxury and often on the backs of those who live in 2nd and 3rd world countries - that alone is a pattern of sin.

There are no valid excuses for living in sin. Those who do will not inherit God's Kingdom. We cannot blame anyone but ourselves.

 

[aspen]

There are no valid excuses for living in sin. Those who do will not inherit God's Kingdom. We cannot blame anyone but ourselves.

We are incapable of avoiding sinful patterns in our lives because we are still tempted to be selfish in predictable ways, despite the sanctification that is occurring in our hearts, Thankfully, by the end of our lives, our sanctification will be completed and we will be able to love perfectly in Heaven - no selfishness, no sin. Until than we need to know ourselves as God knows us and repent whenever we see our pattern of sin and pray for renewal - knowing that we are often blind to many of the patterns of sin. Recognizing sin in our lives and repenting is like weeding a flower bed or doing the dishes - it is a never ending rhythm in our sanctifying relationship with God.

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Ducky, Aspen. I've been reading your conversation, and I'm trying to understand something....
Ducky talks of the difference between living in sin, and committing a sin. Do you mean by that, Duck, that the difference is between living with open sin in your life...for example...an unmarried couple (who know it is a sin to sleep together before their married), but despite this knowledge they choose to live together, almost flaunting the fact that they are sinning, and opposed to the sinning everyone does, but it is unintentional. As Christians we seek to fight against sin, but even then, there are times when we slip....the driver in front of us cuts us off dangerously and we think "jerk", or perhaps something even more uncharitable. When we say or do something on the spur of the moment, only to realise later that we may have hurt and sinned against a brother or sister, and then do not apologise for fear it will make things more awkward.

So I guess I'm asking for clarification on this....'living in sin' while claiming Christ is Lord, is basically saying 'I know what you say God, but I want to live like this, and I think I know better'...which let's face it, is the original sin. And 'committing a sin' is something every human does because of their fallen nature, but as Christians who love Jesus, we strive to put this behaviour to death every day. Is that the distinction you're talking about Ducky??

 

[aspen]

Hey Ducky, Aspen. I've been reading your conversation, and I'm trying to understand something....
Ducky talks of the difference between living in sin, and committing a sin. Do you mean by that, Duck, that the difference is between living with open sin in your life...for example...an unmarried couple (who know it is a sin to sleep together before their married), but despite this knowledge they choose to live together, almost flaunting the fact that they are sinning, and opposed to the sinning everyone does, but it is unintentional. As Christians we seek to fight against sin, but even then, there are times when we slip....the driver in front of us cuts us off dangerously and we think "jerk", or perhaps something even more uncharitable. When we say or do something on the spur of the moment, only to realise later that we may have hurt and sinned against a brother or sister, and then do not apologise for fear it will make things more awkward.

So I guess I'm asking for clarification on this....'living in sin' while claiming Christ is Lord, is basically saying 'I know what you say God, but I want to live like this, and I think I know better'...which let's face it, is the original sin. And 'committing a sin' is something every human does because of their fallen nature, but as Christians who love Jesus, we strive to put this behaviour to death every day. Is that the distinction you're talking about Ducky??

I am going to add something - I think it is rare for a Christian to 'flaunt' open sin before God. Let's say a Christian is living with a partner in sin - he has heard that his church believes its a sin - he even knows that the Christians he knows believe that God calls it a sin - BUT - he knows that God understands his situation - right? God knows that he always has the best intentions and why would He punish them for loving each other? In other words, the guy is sinning, but he just doesn't get it and no amount of badgering from other people is going to get him to see the light - only the Holy Spirit can convict his heart in a meaningful way. I do not think the guy is flaunting anything - I think he may be trying to stay below the radar or he has rationalized his behavior in a manner beyond human to human conviction.

People operate as "the exception to the rule" all the time. Your driving example was a good one - most people believe they are good drivers, operating their vehicle in a sea of jerks and morons. Yet, when they speed, cut people off, text, eat breakfast, and run red lights all at once - they believe that people understand that they are really good drivers and have a good reason for driving recklessly. Believe me, it takes an act of God to convict them that they are indeed one of the jerks or morons.

Revealing negative behavior to people is a touchy and often fruitless effort. I am a counselor, if I were to give the person I was counseling a list of all their faults and a timeline to fix them in order to ensure them cured, I would be out of business. And believe me, sometimes the behavior is so abhorrent, not to mention obvious that I just want to pantse the narcissist! However, I know that people need to come to their own decision and realization before they can change their behavior - I believe it is actually God working through our professional relationship, which is the catalyst to a breakthrough. If the realization is forced, the person may lose touch with reality or shutdown all emotions. People are fragile and need care.

So, the very fact that people are sinners is the reason for Christ's justification and the HS sanctification. People need freedom from their own selfishness, sparked by fear. It is ultimately an act of God.

 

[Rach1370]

I am going to add something - I think it is rare for a Christian to 'flaunt' open sin before God. Let's say a Christian is living with a partner in sin - he has heard that his church believes its a sin - he even knows that the Christians he knows believe that God calls it a sin - BUT - he knows that God understands his situation - right? God knows that he always has the best intentions and why would He punish them for loving each other? In other words, the guy is sinning, but he just doesn't get it and no amount of badgering from other people is going to get him to see the light - only the Holy Spirit can convict his heart in a meaningful way. I do not think the guy is flaunting anything - I think he may be trying to stay below the radar or he has rationalized his behavior in a manner beyond human to human conviction.

People operate as "the exception to the rule" all the time. Your driving example was a good one - most people believe they are good drivers, operating their vehicle in a sea of jerks and morons. Yet, when they speed, cut people off, text, eat breakfast, and run red lights all at once - they believe that people understand that they are really good drivers and have a good reason for driving recklessly. Believe me, it takes an act of God to convict them that they are indeed one of the jerks or morons.

Revealing negative behavior to people is a touchy and often fruitless effort. I am a counselor, if I were to give the person I was counseling a list of all their faults and a timeline to fix them in order to ensure them cured, I would be out of business. And believe me, sometimes the behavior is so abhorrent, not to mention obvious that I just want to pantse the narcissist! However, I know that people need to come to their own decision and realization before they can change their behavior - I believe it is actually God working through our professional relationship, which is the catalyst to a breakthrough. If the realization is forced, the person may lose touch with reality or shutdown all emotions. People are fragile and need care.

So, the very fact that people are sinners is the reason for Christ's justification and the HS sanctification. People need freedom from their own selfishness, sparked by fear. It is ultimately an act of God.

I see your point, and it's a good one. Indeed I suppose people can be unaware that their behaviour is truly sinful, even if other people tell them it is. But people are very good at 'talking' themselves around in situations like this. I suspect many people are aware, deep down, that their behaviour is not acceptable to God. The Holy Spirit whispers to us and not every one listens. How many Christians do you think, put such whisperings aside because they are desperate to live a certain way. Desperate enough that they talk themselves around to believing that God Himself would be fine with what they are doing. They search out Churches and pastors who teach acceptance of the very thing they long for. Suddenly they are being told that God is okay with it, that indeed He encourages it, and that a true Christian will stand proudly for there faith. It's exactly what they want to hear, so they believe it. The Holy Spirit can prompt and whisper, but a person can choose to ignore, deny and resist. I grant you that the HS is God, and should He want a person to know, then that person will. But the Bible clearly points out that it is possible to resist, quench and even blaspheme against the Spirit. Now I grant you, if such a person has ignored the Spirit, he'll hardly listen to a person trying to tell him he is in sin, but I don't know that that's the point. The point is trying to define the difference between a living a life of sin and committing a sin. I do think there is a difference. I know that I commit sins, I am a sinful person, saved only by the grace given me. But every day I strive to seek out my sins and put them to death. I read the Bible and pray, doing my very best to listen to that quiet word from the Spirit. I know I'm far from perfect and that my journey will last the rest of my life, but I actively try and makes sure that I do not have a habitual, repetitive sin that reoccurs in my life. And you know what? I'm actually thankful whenever God points out a sin...not that it is then easy or quick to kill it, but I'm thankful that God is working with me in my sanctification, that He cares that much. And I think that is one of the big differences....those 'committing sins' usually are eager for learning and growth towards God, while those 'living in sin' are pretty much happy with how things are at the moment...they don't want to budge, they don't want to see, they're not open to any new voice...be it Christian, conscience or Holy Spirit.

 

[belantos]

So why are you doing it??? You can't understand simple English and you're trying to teach us Hebrew and Greek?
Try this one:

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh ...

You don't seem to understand the difference between the Greek manuscripts and a translation. Every translation is an opinion about what is being translated. Some of them are better, others are worse.

 

[aspen]

I see your point, and it's a good one. Indeed I suppose people can be unaware that their behaviour is truly sinful, even if other people tell them it is. But people are very good at 'talking' themselves around in situations like this. I suspect many people are aware, deep down, that their behaviour is not acceptable to God. The Holy Spirit whispers to us and not every one listens. How many Christians do you think, put such whisperings aside because they are desperate to live a certain way. Desperate enough that they talk themselves around to believing that God Himself would be fine with what they are doing. They search out Churches and pastors who teach acceptance of the very thing they long for. Suddenly they are being told that God is okay with it, that indeed He encourages it, and that a true Christian will stand proudly for there faith. It's exactly what they want to hear, so they believe it. The Holy Spirit can prompt and whisper, but a person can choose to ignore, deny and resist. I grant you that the HS is God, and should He want a person to know, then that person will. But the Bible clearly points out that it is possible to resist, quench and even blaspheme against the Spirit. Now I grant you, if such a person has ignored the Spirit, he'll hardly listen to a person trying to tell him he is in sin, but I don't know that that's the point. The point is trying to define the difference between a living a life of sin and committing a sin. I do think there is a difference. I know that I commit sins, I am a sinful person, saved only by the grace given me. But every day I strive to seek out my sins and put them to death. I read the Bible and pray, doing my very best to listen to that quiet word from the Spirit. I know I'm far from perfect and that my journey will last the rest of my life, but I actively try and makes sure that I do not have a habitual, repetitive sin that reoccurs in my life. And you know what? I'm actually thankful whenever God points out a sin...not that it is then easy or quick to kill it, but I'm thankful that God is working with me in my sanctification, that He cares that much. And I think that is one of the big differences....those 'committing sins' usually are eager for learning and growth towards God, while those 'living in sin' are pretty much happy with how things are at the moment...they don't want to budge, they don't want to see, they're not open to any new voice...be it Christian, conscience or Holy Spirit.

I think we are agreeing on many points - I think our main disagreement is on the nature of humans. I see people as basically good with selfish tendencies, therefore I tend to see sin as passive - people are selfish out of laziness and fear. Sinning is often mindless and habitual. I think that years spent working with people with big egos has shown me that even bravado and a display of big egos equals weakness in most cases. People are sick and hurting and use selfishness to cope with pain and fear stemming from a lack of a healthy spiritual life.

I have a feeling that you may take a dimmer view of human nature.

 

[Duckybill]

Hey Ducky, Aspen. I've been reading your conversation, and I'm trying to understand something....
Ducky talks of the difference between living in sin, and committing a sin. Do you mean by that, Duck, that the difference is between living with open sin in your life...for example...an unmarried couple (who know it is a sin to sleep together before their married), but despite this knowledge they choose to live together, almost flaunting the fact that they are sinning, and opposed to the sinning everyone does, but it is unintentional. As Christians we seek to fight against sin, but even then, there are times when we slip....the driver in front of us cuts us off dangerously and we think "jerk", or perhaps something even more uncharitable. When we say or do something on the spur of the moment, only to realise later that we may have hurt and sinned against a brother or sister, and then do not apologise for fear it will make things more awkward.

So I guess I'm asking for clarification on this....'living in sin' while claiming Christ is Lord, is basically saying 'I know what you say God, but I want to live like this, and I think I know better'...which let's face it, is the original sin. And 'committing a sin' is something every human does because of their fallen nature, but as Christians who love Jesus, we strive to put this behaviour to death every day. Is that the distinction you're talking about Ducky??

A simple answer would be that MANY are not 'striving' to enter God's Kingdom, and therefore will not. Churches are filled with people who are not striving to enter God's Kingdom. The following Scripture is about salvation and how that MANY will fail to obtain it. They think they have more important things in this life.

Luke 13:22-28 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. [sup]23 [/sup]And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, [sup]24 [/sup]“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. [sup]25 [/sup]When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ [sup]26 [/sup]Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ [sup]27 [/sup]But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ [sup]28 [/sup]In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

 

[Duckybill]

I am going to add something - I think it is rare for a Christian to 'flaunt' open sin before God. Let's say a Christian is living with a partner in sin - he has heard that his church believes its a sin - he even knows that the Christians he knows believe that God calls it a sin - BUT - he knows that God understands his situation - right?

God understands alright.

 

[FHII]

Duckybill,

I do not expect you to understand why mysaying that “Matthew –Revelation” isn’t a covenant, much less the NewCovenant. That’s where it can be found,but that is no more the Covenant thanthe Old Testament is the Old Covenant. It appears to me that you aren’t interested in taking the time to answerthe question correctly, or perhaps you don’t know it. As for you saying I am attempting to chop upthe NT, I am not; and I see that comment nothing more as a backhanded comment meantas an insult.



The problem you are having is grasping thatit is not whether we can walk in sin and still be a Christian. It is a fact that we DO walk in sin whetherwe want to or not. We all DO walk insin. But we CAN walk in sin AND be aChristian. If it were not true then youyourself are damned just like the rest of us.



The “license to sin” argument is one of themost ridiculous argument against grace through faith ever implied. Christians don’t need a license to sinbecause they are under grace. That meansthey are not under the law (Rom 6:14), their sins are covered (Rom 4:7), theirsins are forgiven (1 John 2:12) and the Lord no longer remembers them (Heb8:12).



You can continue to quote 1 Cor 6:9-10 andeven make whatever words in those passes bolder and bigger all you want. However, if you continue to deny what verses11 and especially 12 say, you are not adhering to what Mat 4:4 and Luke 4:4clearly say in red which is man shall not live by bread alone but by every wordof God. You accused me of chopping upthe NT, however I am not the one denying that these verses exist in theNT. You have even gone so far as to callmy noting those verses exist, “satanic”.



Satan did try that with Jesus. He quoted scripture without understanding totry to make a point. He, like you,isolated one verse and used it for his agenda. Jesus on the other hand, brought it into context. So when you quote 1 Cor 6:6-10, and I counterwith, “wait a minute, read the whole chapter and especially the next to verses!”it is not I who is acting like Satan.



It is clear to me that I will not get youto answer which sin I said was ok and which sin I am defending. Therefore at this point I am going toconclude that your statement concerning such is a false accusation. The doctrine of grace through faith coveringall sins and thus, a Christian can walk in sin (in the flesh) is not thedoctrine of demons. As a matter of fact,it is part of that New Covenant which you failed to be able to identify.



I have no problem with you saying you don’twalk in sin, as long as you mean in the spirit (or you mean your inward mandoesn’t walk in sin) and you fully believe the message of grace throughfaith. However, to say you don’t “walkin sin” or say you don’t sin (in the flesh) is either a lie, a denial or apoint of ignorance of what the Bible says. Romans 3:23, 5:12 and I John 1:8, 10 is clear proof of that.



Unless you confess your sins; answer myquestions directly or speak plainly that you don’t intend to answer them; andshow that you would like to have a profitable conversation about this, I willno longer waste our time discussing this with you.

 

[aspen]

God understands alright.

I hope He is compassionate towards homosexuals and also consumers and all people who drive because we are all just as selfish. I hope and pray for mercy over justice based in legalism, every time