John Calvin and Calvinism.

[GodsGrace]

You can go back and check for yourself, GG, but what I said was, "(Rudometkin and I) are on the same side regarding John Calvin," and later in that same post (336) that, "I wholeheartedly agree with Calvin's statement quoted (by Rudometkin) above. And in post 340, I said the same thing, that, "...I'm in perfect accord with what John Calvin has said (t)here," in his Institutes, cited by Rudometkin.


In the sense that God allows, for a time, and even uses ~ but in no way authors or condones ~ the sinful acts of men to accomplish His purposes, I'll allow what you say, ridiculous as it is.


No, they don't. See above. You, GodsGrace, like Rudometkin, and some other posters here ~ though your heart possibly be in the right place ~ are overstating things and therefore making untrue statements.

Grace and peace to you.

PS, you were going along good there until you got to your middle sentence.
You CANNOT call yourself a calvinist and state that God ALLOWS evil but does not CAUSE it.
ALL Christians believe this, but it's not what the reformed or Calvin taught.

@Rudometkin posted for you what calvin taught.
You are AGAIN saying you don't agree with it.
So are you a calvinist or not?
WHAT makes you think that you are?

Again, if God CAUSES everything to happen, as calvinism states, then He also causes all sin to happen.

Perhaps you'd like to read and/or watch the following: (it'll get you started to become a real calvinist).
Help! I’m Struggling with the Doctrine of Predestination


God controls EVERYTHING

Even though God controls EVERYTHING, we are still responsible for our sins.
Huh??

This one is good: God chooses who will be saved, but we're still responsible if we're not chosen.

And from John Calvin's writing:
we hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things,—that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, he decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.
The Institutes 1.16.8
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 8

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I'm most certainly a Calvinist through and through (I think he was right), but none of these characterizations fit at all the way Calvinists view God and His character. Alas, they're just gross misperceptions and mischaracterizations.


LOL!


The interesting question is really, why do so many deliberately or possibly inadvertently misconstrue the Calvinist understanding of God's character? Well, obviously to create straw-man arguments. But like I said, many are not even aware of this.

Grace and peace to you, GG.

PS,
I really think you don't know calvinism...
or you've created your own version of it.
I'm not going to ask how you learned about it,
but you need to start over...
or come over to our side !
Where God Loves His creation (us)
and wishes for all men to be saved
IF they follow His conditions, as explained in the N.T.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I'm most certainly a Calvinist through and through (I think he was right), but none of these characterizations fit at all the way Calvinists view God and His character. Alas, they're just gross misperceptions and mischaracterizations.


LOL!

There is no "game." But, with Paul, we say:

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor, or who has given a gift to Him, that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.”


The interesting question is really, why do so many deliberately or possibly inadvertently misconstrue the Calvinist understanding of God's character? Well, obviously to create straw-man arguments. But like I said, many are not even aware of this.

Grace and peace to you, GG.

You never replied to my post no. 343
You NEVER really do...

 

[GodsGrace]

Believing, trusting, hoping on what Jesus Christ did is evidence that He has washed you with His blood.(maybe you don't believe on Him, I don't know)

What is there to fear on judgement day, when Jesus the Judge Himself sees His own perfect works in you?

It's not what you did, it's not what I did, it's what Jesus did. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Lord Jesus, you lived a perfect life. You said those who believe on you, you will never cast out!

Look at those who Jesus turned away on Judgement day.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Their hope was in their own works, and they presented their best defense to God. It wasn't good enough. Condemned forever.

A believer's hope is in Christ's works, and no case needs to be made. Glory to God forever.

I am convinced that the believer's salvation is as sure as Christ's perfection.

Rudometkin,
Our salvation is secure in our life in Christ.
Agreed.

Just want to say that you misunderstand Matthew 7:23
Please notice WHO will be banished by Jesus:
depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Those that have faith and do good deeds/works are doing what they're supposed to be doing...
it is THE LAWLESS that will be banished.

The lawless, those that do not obey the Moral Law of God.
(the 10 commandments, or the Law of Christ or the The Two Great Commandments).

 

[Rudometkin]

Rudometkin,
Our salvation is secure in our life in Christ.
Agreed.

Just want to say that you misunderstand Matthew 7:23
Please notice WHO will be banished by Jesus:
depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Those that have faith and do good deeds/works are doing what they're supposed to be doing...
it is THE LAWLESS that will be banished.

The lawless, those that do not obey the Moral Law of God.
(the 10 commandments, or the Law of Christ or the The Two Great Commandments).

We are all workers of lawlessness.

Only Christ obeyed the Moral Law of God.

The Law is the schoolmaster which leads to Christ.

Christ is the end of the law.

Christ is our Salvation.

Keep studying.

 

[GodsGrace]

you underestimate sin. You think God will save the majority of mankind???

Did I say that?

He wont. We have numerous scripture verses telling us that only a few will make it. The reality is, BILLIONS of people will end up in hell. We are all sinners, We all deserve hell. To think otherwise is prideful. You deserve hell, i most definitely deserve hell. Yet when God saved 1 person, it is God who will get the glory. And when 1 person is thrown into hell, all of creation will give God glory for being just, fair, and giving back what people have earned.

Billions? You must have read the same systematic theology books as others have that say the same thing.

We all deserve hell.
Or we all deserve heaven.
What would a JUST God do?

Explain what justice is and then tell us how God will be just in either case....

And please don't tell me what I believe.
Thanks.

 

[Enoch111]

you underestimate sin. You think God will save the majority of mankind???

You underestimate God's grace. As a matter of FACT God desires the salvation of all mankind.

Even John Calvin had to admit it, since he himself wrote exactly that! And I already quoted him to confirm this (which you probably failed to read properly or simply ignored). But Calvin was deceived by Satan in order to turn Gospel truth on its head. So his Institutes actually contradict what he wrote in his commentaries. And then Satan deceived you into thinking that Reformed Theology (or Five Point Calvinism) is true when it is completely false. So if you are really serious about knowing God's truth, you should study Calvin's commentaries and throw his "Institutes" in the garbage.

CALVIN'S COMMENTARY ON 2 PETER 3:9
Not willing that any should perish. So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are all workers of lawlessness.

Only Christ obeyed the Moral Law of God.

The Law is the schoolmaster which leads to Christ.

Christ is the end of the law.

Christ is our Salvation.

Keep studying.

That last sentence is so prideful of you.
Just like most calvinists are.

You stated that Matthew 7:23 means that those that are depending ON THEIR WORKS will end up in hell.
So do you now understand that THE LAWLESS will end up in hell?

Jesus made it clear who will go where.
Take John 5:28
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Luckily for humanity, Jesus taught for over 3 years on how we can become children of God.
If God chose the saved and the damned, Jesus would have had no real reason to go to the cross.

1 John 1:23-24
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


Could you explain why God would COMMAND something that only HE has power over?
If God picked a person to be saved,
why would He command that person to believe in Jesus?

 

[GodsGrace]

You underestimate God's grace. As a matter of FACT God desires the salvation of all mankind.

Even John Calvin had to admit it, since he himself wrote exactly that! And I already quoted him to confirm this (which you probably failed to read properly or simply ignored). But Calvin was deceived by Satan in order to turn Gospel truth on its head. So his Institutes actually contradict what he wrote in his commentaries. And then Satan deceived you into thinking that Reformed Theology (or Five Point Calvinism) is true when it is completely false. So if you are really serious about knowing God's truth, you should study Calvin's commentaries and throw his "Institutes" in the garbage.

Enoch,
The Institutes state that God chooses the saved and the reprobate.

The Institutes 3.21.5

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

 

[Enoch111]

The Institutes state that God chooses the saved and the reprobate.

No. What it says is that God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation (gratuitously called the reprobate -- worthless or rejected). And that goes completely against Gospel truth. What you really should have focused on is the quotation from Calvin's COMMENTARY on 2 Peter 3:9, which CONTRADICTS the whole idea of election for salvation or damnation. That's the real issue and the key to get Calvinists to reject Calvinism.

 

[Curtis]

The basics of Calvinism.
TULIP and Reformed Theology: An Introduction

The Westminster Confessions to include the longer and short catechisms.
Confession and Catechisms: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church

And the Westminster confession exposes the bankruptcy of reformed election dogma,by stating that every single thing that happens, without exception, was decreed by God.

The fall of Lucifer and becoming Satan? Decreed by God.

The fall of Adam? Decreed by God.

WW2 with 85 million deaths? Decreed by God.

Every murder, rape, torture, all decreed by God.

Did you or a loved one get cancer? Decreed by God.

Calvinism makes God the author of sin, and evil, and makes God the only real sinner in the universe.

It’s an insult of Gods character and nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. What it says is that God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation (gratuitously called the reprobate -- worthless or rejected). And that goes completely against Gospel truth. What you really should have focused on is the quotation from Calvin's COMMENTARY on 2 Peter 3:9, which CONTRADICTS the whole idea of election for salvation or damnation. That's the real issue and the key to get Calvinists to reject Calvinism.

RC Sproul, according to his biography, went into the reformed faith kicking and screaming because it made no sense to him. I'm not reading it but saw the quote somewhere. If I could remember where, I'll post it.

Also, modern preachers soften the message because it's just plain cruel. How anyone could worship such a god, I don't know.

I post so many verses that don't even get a reply,,,maybe they don't have one.

 

[GodsGrace]

And the Westminster confession exposes the bankruptcy of reformed election dogma,by stating that every single thing that happens, without exception, was decreed by God.

The fall of Lucifer and becoming Satan? Decreed by God.

The fall of Adam? Decreed by God.

WW2 with 85 million deaths? Decreed by God.

Every murder, rape, torture, all decreed by God.

Did you or a loved one get cancer? Decreed by God.

Calvinism makes God the author of sin, and evil, and makes God the only real sinner in the universe.

It’s an insult of Gods character and nature.

Amen!

 

[FHII]

This is an interesting question.
Why would someone believe in a God that hates His creation enough to send the majority to hell?

Well, because they believe in God as the Bible presents him. Your question SHOULD BE why does God send folks to hell. Yes... I left out the word "hate". Does he hate is creation? No. Does he hate some people? Yes. He hates some people and he is an enemy and adversary to some people.

That programs us like a bunch of robots?

An unfounded and unprovoked question. Nothing in the Bible says we are robots and nothing in Calvin's writings says we are robots.

Now, the Bible does describe us as sheep. I'm fine with that. Are you? As for Calvin... He believed in piousness, he believed that grace wasn't a license to sin, he believed in free will, and he believed that wgo was predestined to salvation (as the Bible says is so) is God's knowledge alone. So... We better act right.

But you don't see that when you are reading selected pull quotes from Calvin and ignore (and demand everyone else ignore... Like some folks on this board do) what is written in-between selected quotes.

Who will never get any true love from us because true love is given freely and not programed.

This is a false charge. What is the Bible answer to why we love God? The answer is because he first loved us.

Hey... Are you married? Couples tend to say, "God brought us together" or may thank God for giving them a spouse.

Is that blasphemy?

Well no man hateth his own flesh, so if we are born of God, of course we will love him.

True love isn't freely given nor was it programmed. It was there in the beginning.

Why would this god even create us to begin with?
So He could play games with us?

Well... Gotta admit... I ask the first question myself sometimes! I would've rather stayed with him! Oh... Sorry... Some of you don't believe we existed before we were born. Sorry.

Yea... He's playing a game with us.... Show Satan that even his bride is greater than he is!

But, its also training for something greater!

Now Godsgrace... After saying all that and perhaps raising your ire, let me expound on a more pertinent matter:

I am not a Calvinist. Nor am I a Lutheran, an Augustinian, an Ignatiusist or a follower of the madman lawyer Tertullian! But I have read them enough to understand them. I don't mean websites or wikipedia posts... I mean I downloaded, printed or checked out their books from a library.

Have I read all of Calvin's work? Heck no! I am only 52 years old! But I have read enough that I get him. I don't think the majority of "anti calvinists" have. Furthermore, if they have prejudices beforehand, they aren't reading with a sound mind.

A poll I really would hate to take is asking how many have read the entire Bible. I don't think a lot have, but I may be wrong. But I am getting to a point: many are talking about "the nature or character of God" but they base it all on 1 John 4:8.

But... If you want to stick to Calvin... I challenge everyone who says he is wrong: List his books that you have read through and through. Or... At least the chapters you have read. And if you can't list any, then take me up on the challenge! Vow to educate yourself! I have some suggestions where to start, but maybe some real Calvinists can also suggest stuff.

After reading, then get back to me... Then I can respect that you are not ignorant on the topic.

 

[rockytopva]

Those of the Sardisean Church age... Doctrine in the head... Deviltry in the heart!

"Pure devilry is urging on the peasants. Therefore let all who are able, mow them down, slaughter and stab them, openly or in secret, and remember that there is nothing more poisonous, noxious and utterly devilish than a rebel. You must kill him as you would a mad dog" -Martin Luther

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin after toasting Michael Servetus

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Those of the Sardisean Church age... Doctrine in the head... Deviltry in the heart!

"Pure devilry is urging on the peasants. Therefore let all who are able, mow them down, slaughter and stab them, openly or in secret, and remember that there is nothing more poisonous, noxious and utterly devilish than a rebel. You must kill him as you would a mad dog" -Martin Luther

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin after toasting Michael Servetus

calvin didnt kill servetus. There, i fixed the last line for you.

 

[GodsGrace]

calvin didnt kill servetus. There, i fixed the last line for you.

The post is correct.
You can't accept the truth.
You should follow the truth,,,
Wherever it takes you.

It might just get you to a God that loves His creation.
Enough to have His Son die for them.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

The post is correct.
You can't accept the truth.
You should follow the truth,,,
Wherever it takes you.

It might just get you to a God that loves His creation.
Enough to have His Son die for them.

heres some truth for you.

 

[Enoch111]

calvin didnt kill servetus. There, i fixed the last line for you.

Evidently this is correct. Here is a summation of this matter:
"What the history of this sad event shows was that Calvin was a man of his times. Both Protestant and Roman Catholic cities condemned Servetus and wanted him dead, as did Calvin. Yet, Servetus’ sentence was not evidence Calvin’s blood-lust nor an example of his tyrannical authority but rather was an occasion for the Geneva council to demonstrate their authority over John Calvin. So, while Calvin was involved with Servetus’ trial, he did not play a key role in his sentencing and death."
The Sad Story of Michael Servetus and John Calvin

Calvin did not have the authority to decide the fate of Servetus. The city council of Geneva made that decision. They consulted with the other cities, but were told that they were the ones to make a decision. Evidently Servetus had been deemed a heretic for quite some time, and there was no separation of church and state.

At the same time this was NOT a biblical decision, since the NT does not call for the burning or execution of heretics. At the very least Calvin should have said this. But he did not. So he must bear some of the blame.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Evidently this is correct. Here is a summation of this matter:
"What the history of this sad event shows was that Calvin was a man of his times. Both Protestant and Roman Catholic cities condemned Servetus and wanted him dead, as did Calvin. Yet, Servetus’ sentence was not evidence Calvin’s blood-lust nor an example of his tyrannical authority but rather was an occasion for the Geneva council to demonstrate their authority over John Calvin. So, while Calvin was involved with Servetus’ trial, he did not play a key role in his sentencing and death."
The Sad Story of Michael Servetus and John Calvin

Calvin did not have the authority to decide the fate of Servetus. The city council of Geneva made that decision. They consulted with the other cities, but were told that they were the ones to make a decision. Evidently Servetus had been deemed a heretic for quite some time, and there was no separation of church and state.

At the same time this was NOT a biblical decision, since the NT does not call for the burning or execution of heretics. At the very least Calvin should have said this. But he did not. So he must bear some of the blame.

calvin wrote to Servetus and told him to stay away. When that didnt work, Calvin spoke on behalf of Servetus. The man couldnt do anymore to help Servetus.