The GENDER Issue again :)

[reformed1689]

All I did was ask questions and quote scripture. You did not answer my questions. If you don't know, say that!

What you did was paraphrased this verse as it that explained everything:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." I John 1:8

This is for carnal men or even men still following their own heads instead of Jesus or for men quenching the Holy Spirit within themselves.

Consider the preceding verse:

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:7

What sin is not washed away? If the Holy Spirit in us is leading, there is no sin to wash away because the Holy Spirit will never lead us to sin, right? So then recall what is written here:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

I never said sin was not washed away. What I did say is the Bible nowhere says we are sinless in this lifetime.

 

[amadeus]

Hello brother. I know that you want to be the peacemaker and God bless you for that.
Paul shared in the same fallen nature that we are all born subject to. Jesus however, only shared the flesh, not the nature. He was fully man, but without sin. Jesus is the goal as He was for the Apostle as well, but Paul wrote follow me as I follow christ.
Why would he write such a thing?
Because it is impossible for the imperfect to be perfect. Our perfection doesn't exist before the redemption of our bodies, though as believers we partake of the same Spirit and strive for that goal. Jesus is our goal, because He alone is perfect. Paul is our example because he shares our fallen nature and so he can say "follow me as I follow Christ."
Don't let the bitterness of one sister come between you and the brethren. Bitterness spreads very quickly in the church, causing division, church splits, loss of fellowship with each other and with God.
Keep the faith, believe the word, use discernment for identifying sin, and judgment in applying discipline.

I understand what you are saying here and do not completely disagree. I will address one thing that you said:

"it is impossible for the imperfect to be perfect."

My response, of course, is, What is impossible for God? Man has traveled a very long ways in the wrong direction from where he was in the Garden of Eden before that first described disobedience.

Were Adam and Eve sinless before they disobeyed God?
Were they Alive to God before they disobeyed?

Jesus was sent to bring Life, the Life that was lost and then some... that is, "Life more abundantly" [from John 10:10].

More abundantly than what? Perhaps than what Adam and Eve had before they disobeyed. What do we have that they did not?

Actually, they did have access to the Tree of Life, but they lost access for themselves and all of their offspring before ever eating of it. What does Jesus tell us about that tree?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

Can anyone who does not overcome eat of that tree? Who is an overcomer and how does one become one? Impossible right?

I leave this here... Please consider!

 

[amadeus]

I never said sin was not washed away. What I did say is the Bible nowhere says we are sinless in this lifetime.

Like many, even most, others, you effectively scoffed at the idea of a person becoming sinless. The scripture says that all have sinned, but it does Not say that even with God's help no man can become sinless.

But... because someone, somewhere, and sometime has decided that because he [they?] could not do, it must be impossible. They say this still today, even though as I understand it, that is effectively saying that Jesus is a liar.

What does "all things are possible" mean?

 

[michaelvpardo]

I understand what you are saying here and do not completely disagree. I will address one thing that you said:

"it is impossible for the imperfect to be perfect."

My response, of course, is, What is impossible for God? Man has traveled a very long ways in the wrong direction from where he was in the Garden of Eden before that first described disobedience.

Were Adam and Eve sinless before they disobeyed God?
Were they Alive to God before they disobeyed?

Jesus was sent to bring Life, the Life that was lost and then some... that is, "Life more abundantly" [from John 10:10].

More abundantly than what? Perhaps than what Adam and Eve had before they disobeyed. What do we have that they did not?

Actually, they did have access to the Tree of Life, but they lost access for themselves and all of their offspring before ever eating of it. What does Jesus tell us about that tree?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

Can anyone who does not overcome eat of that tree? Who is an overcomer and how does one become one? Impossible right?

I leave this here... Please consider!

I've considered these things my entire life, though I wasn't able to understand them until I was 39 years old and born again. Christ completes His church when He returns. We have His promises, we have His Spirit, we have His word.
His word says:
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:11-13
To use the vernacular "You can't get there from here."

 

[reformed1689]

Like many, even most, others, you effectively scoffed at the idea of a person becoming sinless. The scripture says that all have sinned, but it does Not say that even with God's help no man can become sinless.

But... because someone, somewhere, and sometime has decided that because he [they?] could not do, it must be impossible. They say this still today, even though as I understand it, that is effectively saying that Jesus is a liar.

What does "all things are possible" mean?

Show me one person who lives on this earth without any sin, if they say that they are a liar.

 

[michaelvpardo]

All I did was ask questions and quote scripture. You did not answer my questions. If you don't know, say that!

What you did was paraphrased this verse as it that explained everything:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." I John 1:8

This is for carnal men or even men still following their own heads instead of Jesus or for men quenching the Holy Spirit within themselves.

Consider the preceding verse:

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:7

What sin is not washed away? If the Holy Spirit in us is leading, there is no sin to wash away because the Holy Spirit will never lead us to sin, right? So then recall what is written here:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

Not really, you're making the verse (1 John 1:8) fit your understanding. Scripture doesn't contradict scripture. If it seems to, you're not getting the meaning correct. I've given you one verse that contradicts your understanding from 1 Corinthians 13 (it's not just something you read at weddings), but I'll provide you with another text (a second witness if you get that.)
because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:21-25

And in case you didn't go back to consider the whole chapter in 1 Corinthians 13:
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:9-10
What are we waiting for? I'm sure that it isn't us. (Though some blow this verse off and say it's referring to the bible.)

And then there's this :
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
What's this verse saying? It's definitely not that Christ had sin, so what or who does apart from sin refer to?

 

[amadeus]

I've considered these things my entire life, though I wasn't able to understand them until I was 39 years old and born again. Christ completes His church when He returns. We have His promises, we have His Spirit, we have His word.
His word says:
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:11-13
To use the vernacular "You can't get there from here."

We are still apparently disagreeing on this point, but that is not saying you are wrong. It is saying I do not see it that way. It may be that I am wrong, but not knowing that I cannot change what I believe. Only God gives increases that matter.

 

[reformed1689]

I once read that the word 'helpmeet' for Eve is the same as the word 'helper' describing the Holy Spirit.

Don't read too much into that....

 

[michaelvpardo]

I once read that the word 'helpmeet' for Eve is the same as the word 'helper' describing the Holy Spirit.

Very good. A good wife uses her God given gifts to help her husband behave in a godly way, but not to usurp authority or control Him. Some people misunderstand the curse in Genesis chapter 3:
"Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”
"Desire" here doesn't refer to sexual desire, because some of us can become less than appealing when we grow fat and old, but speaks to control. In other words, you'll want your husband to be as you wish, but sorry, he's going to rule over you.
Christians should be able to live above the curse by faith and love, but submission is tough given that men are more inclined to act according to reason than feelings.
My wife was never satisfied with being those things that I was unable to be, but rather wanted me to be more like her. The idea of complimentary relationship was foreign to her, but we tend to think that the world would be a better place if everyone was just like us (I however, shudder at the thought.)
We all tend to do the same thing with God. We'd like Him to be more like us, but sorry, He's on the throne. That's problematic in the church when the church interprets scripture to change God, rather than allow God to change us through scripture.

 

[ScottA]

So let me try to understand your statement here. Do you see the rebellion of wives and women as legitimate and that we're destined to have the kingdom torn away from us? Can you explain anything clearly without obfuscation?

The disorder that Paul was historically confronting in the church was indeed a problem to contend with, but was the smaller context than that larger context that caused it to become a greater principle in the eternal word of God. But no, the personal roles and those of the church are like those addressed by Jesus regarding the seven churches in Revelations, specific to each.

As for explaining things clearly, if you can now "bear it" (unlike the apostles of Jesus' time) there are many "hard sayings" of being lead unto "all truth." What did you expect?

 

[michaelvpardo]

We are still apparently disagreeing on this point, but that is not saying you are wrong. It is saying I do not see it that way. It may be that I am wrong, but not knowing that I cannot change what I believe. Only God gives increases that matter.

I know it sound a bit smug or arrogant, but I'm inclined to say you might not agree with me now, but you will eventually. Take care brother and if you manage to find a perfect man or woman, please introduce me and I'll change my mind.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! Romans 7:23-24

 

[michaelvpardo]

The disorder that Paul was historically confronting in the church was indeed a problem to contend with, but was the smaller context than that larger context that caused it to become a greater principle in the eternal word of God. But no, the personal roles and those of the church are like those addressed by Jesus regarding the seven churches in Revelations, specific to each.

As for explaining things clearly, if you can now "bear it" (unlike the apostles of Jesus' time) there are many "hard sayings" of being lead unto "all truth." What did you expect?

Nope. The letters in the book of the Revelation were written to specific churches, but are relevant to anyone "who has an ear to hear". Good try though.
By the way, if you think that there's order in the church now, just go back to your op and read all the responses.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Nor do you cling to God's word.
6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers! 1 Corinthians 6 :1-6
OK, make no righteous judgment according to His word, but do not teach what you do not understand.

That's the point. I do teach only what God has made clear to me. How about you?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

do you not think the woman being deceived has a part in shewing forth the longsuffering of Christ? How far apart is “deceived” and “ignorant”? Is it random that Paul’s speaking of women being silent in the church (another word for silent is mute) that he touches on ignorance also? 1 Corinthians 14:36-38 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. [38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Exactly. Today women are well educated and have a more obedient nature. Some men won't look at a map or ask directions. Women do naturally. My ears are always trained for God's voice. Men like to believe what makes them feel like he-men, and will even make a law out of a cultural statement. God doesn't do that.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I guess Scripture is small minded then according to you.

You make statements with no proof. Paul was no longer a sinner. He was free from sin. It is you who wish to discredit him. Where. Prove it without making yourself look uneducated.

 

[Enoch111]

The scripture says that all have sinned, but it does Not say that even with God's help no man can become sinless.

Christians can become sinless (righteous and blameless) by the grace of God. But no person should claim sinless perfection (since that claim itself would be a sin). We all are urged to examine ourselves, which automatically cancels the idea of being sinlessly perfect. Even Peter -- Christ's chosen apostle to the Jews -- was rebuked when he did something that was not fully in keeping with Gospel truth. And he took the rebuke with good grace.

Getting back to the gender issue -- there is absolutely no ambiguity. Christian men and women have different roles and different responsibilities in the home and in the church. If anyone is contentious about this, they can take it up with God.

 

[Enoch111]

Paul was no longer a sinner.

That does not mean that saint Paul could not sin. That simply means that he mortified the flesh and walked in the Spirit. As you have been told a hundred times, the flesh is not eradicated when a person becomes a child of God. So you do sin, and you should also confess your sins to God.

 

[amadeus]

Show me one person who lives on this earth without any sin, if they say that they are a liar.

So then proceed according to this and then ask who is not a liar? Me and you? Who to believe?

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,.." Rom 3:4

But then also you ask me to show you one person who is sinless as if you must have proof in order to believe.

You among the atheists? They come on this forum at times, and they ask for proof. Do you also need proof? Do you like Thomas insist on putting your fingers into the Master wounds before you believe that it is him?

Where and what then is faith?

If you were to meet a sinless person, how would you recognize him as such, seeing as how your vision is flawless and less perfect than "face to face"?

Show us a sign they ask... and then we will believe!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That does not mean that saint Paul could not sin. That simply means that he mortified the flesh and walked in the Spirit. As you have been told a hundred times, the flesh is not eradicated when a person becomes a child of God. So you do sin, and you should also confess your sins to God.

I know you don't believe Romans 6:6-7, but that is not my problem, but yours. Crucified IS eradicated in my book. And we keep ourselves that way.

 

[amadeus]

I know it sound a bit smug or arrogant, but I'm inclined to say you might not agree with me now, but you will eventually. Take care brother and if you manage to find a perfect man or woman, please introduce me and I'll change my mind...

Thank you for your kind words.

You like others use words in posting here as well as in other communication, which sometimes means something different to other people and as a result there is little or no real transfer of information from one person to another.

My old friend @bbyrd009 is one to catch this in people and as a result often in turn cannot be understood either.

For example, in your own post above, you used the word, "perfect", as if everyone knew what you meant and must use the same definition and/or connotation that you do. Have you ever really tried to understand what God meant by it rather than immediately presuming and using the meaning of Webster's dictionary or the man on the street? How does God communicate His meaning to us? If we have already decided what He means, He may not.

I have learned to be watchful about this communication problem and so sometimes I effectively bite my tongue rather than join a lot of conversations occurring right here on this forum.

People don't really want to know most of the time what others really believe. They are mostly more interested in getting their own ideas or beliefs across, perhaps to score some kind of brownie points... They forget that what Solomon wrote about all of us 3,000 years ago still applies. God never changes. Man can change or be changed, but he is quite resistant to it... including yours truly! We need to allow Him to work on us. Closing our minds and hearts to the possibility that "we" are wrong limits God Himself.

So I believe...