The GENDER Issue again :)

[ScottA]

The gender issue keeps popping up..

And those even with the best of intensions of being true and faithful to the word of God, still refer to Paul's commandment for women to be "silent in church" as if that smaller purpose of which Paul spoke was also the greater purpose of God in His word to all generations.

Yes, it was good and appropriate of Paul to address the needs of the time and correct those causing disorder in the church, and that he did. But taking it on that level only, is not the higher way of God. That's thinking to small.

Just as the object of all parables is not the subject, Paul's smaller contention, was not God greater contention. It was give in parable--words to live by, yes, but with a greater meaning that must be explained...as it is with many parables.

God did not create gender to portray the kingdom of God as having a Mr. & Mrs. God.

He rather took woman from the man to portray them as becoming one flesh again, and then after we should have understood that much, He revealed the greater mystery of marriage (first by Jesus, and then through Paul), as portraying the church as the bride, and Christ as the Bridegroom.

Now, for those who want to continue the elementary understanding of "women being silent in church"...do you really want to exclude yourself from the church which is the bride of Christ, who are all portrayed in the scriptures being as women becoming One with Christ, the Bridegroom? I should think not.

Who then should "be silent in church?" All, should be silent. This is why that little story of unruly women made it into the greater context of the holy scriptures for all eternity. Who then, should speak? Did Christ not explain, that "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you?"

So Jesus and Paul did not ultimately mean to silence women, but to speak to all by His own spirit. Which is not to say that men and women do not have their perspective roles to portray. Nor is it to say that men have more of the Holy Spirit to offer. But it is the will of God that we portray Him properly before those who are coming into the church having been drawn, not by men or women, but by God.

Therefore, men and women alike should be silent in church, not speaking their own words, but God's. Period. This is the will of God for the church, for the bride of Christ, that we should make straight the way of the Lord.

 

[GISMYS_7]

God allowed Paul to give his opinion and advise.

 

[Enoch111]

Now, for those who want to continue the elementary understanding of "women being silent in church"...do you really want to exclude yourself from the church which is the bride of Christ, who are all portrayed in the scriptures being as women becoming One with Christ, the Bridegroom? I should think not.

You seem to have misunderstood Paul. The metaphorical and spiritual Bride of Christ (the Church) consists of both men and women. But when it comes to the local church (or the Christian home) God has given men and women distinct and separate roles.

That is not Paul's opinion but God's. It is significant that all the apostles were men, and the Bible also makes it clear that both the elders and the deacons within local churches would exclusively be men. So if you have an argument, it is with God, not with Paul or anyone else. Let's not fall into the feminist trap of ignoring Scripture to satisfy feminist ideology (which is rooted in godless Communism).

 

[ScottA]

You seem to have misunderstood Paul. The metaphorical and spiritual Bride of Christ (the Church) consists of both men and women. But when it comes to the local church (or the Christian home) God has given men and women distinct and separate roles.

That is not Paul's opinion but God's. It is significant that all the apostles were men, and the Bible also makes it clear that both the elders and the deacons within local churches would exclusively be men. So if you have an argument, it is with God, not with Paul or anyone else. Let's not fall into the feminist trap of ignoring Scripture to satisfy feminist ideology (which is rooted in godless Communism).

Haha, you have misunderstood me. I was saying much the same thing.

So Jesus and Paul did not ultimately mean to silence women, but to speak to all by His own spirit. Which is not to say that men and women do not have their perspective roles to portray. Nor is it to say that men have more of the Holy Spirit to offer. But it is the will of God that we portray Him properly before those who are coming into the church having been drawn, not by men or women, but by God.

 

[ScottA]

God allowed Paul to give his opinion and advise.

Yes, just as He did Moses (regarding divorce). By no coincidence...which was later corrected by Jesus.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The gender issue keeps popping up..

And those even with the best of intensions of being true and faithful to the word of God, still refer to Paul's commandment for women to be "silent in church" as if that smaller purpose of which Paul spoke was also the greater purpose of God in His word to all generations.

Yes, it was good and appropriate of Paul to address the needs of the time and correct those causing disorder in the church, and that he did. But taking it on that level only, is not the higher way of God. That's thinking to small.

Just as the object of all parables is not the subject, Paul's smaller contention, was not God greater contention. It was give in parable--words to live by, yes, but with a greater meaning that must be explained...as it is with many parables.

God did not create gender to portray the kingdom of God as having a Mr. & Mrs. God.

He rather took woman from the man to portray them as becoming one flesh again, and then after we should have understood that much, He revealed the greater mystery of marriage (first by Jesus, and then through Paul), as portraying the church as the bride, and Christ as the Bridegroom.

Now, for those who want to continue the elementary understanding of "women being silent in church"...do you really want to exclude yourself from the church which is the bride of Christ, who are all portrayed in the scriptures being as women becoming One with Christ, the Bridegroom? I should think not.

Who then should "be silent in church?" All, should be silent. This is why that little story of unruly women made it into the greater context of the holy scriptures for all eternity. Who then, should speak? Did Christ not explain, that "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you?"

So Jesus and Paul did not ultimately mean to silence women, but to speak to all by His own spirit. Which is not to say that men and women do not have their perspective roles to portray. Nor is it to say that men have more of the Holy Spirit to offer. But it is the will of God that we portray Him properly before those who are coming into the church having been drawn, not by men or women, but by God.

Therefore, men and women alike should be silent in church, not speaking their own words, but God's. Period. This is the will of God for the church, for the bride of Christ, that we should make straight the way of the Lord.

It is nice to see a Christian man not being chauvinistic.

Edit: I may have complimented you too soon if you agree with Enoch!

 

[ScottA]

It is nice to see a Christian man not being chauvinistic.

Edit: I may have complimented you too soon if you agree with Enoch!

I agree with God. But if Enoch is not against us...

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I agree with God. But if Enoch is not against us...

I agree with God too, as do we all. You're not alone in that.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The gender issue keeps popping up..

And those even with the best of intensions of being true and faithful to the word of God, still refer to Paul's commandment for women to be "silent in church" as if that smaller purpose of which Paul spoke was also the greater purpose of God in His word to all generations.

Yes, it was good and appropriate of Paul to address the needs of the time and correct those causing disorder in the church, and that he did. But taking it on that level only, is not the higher way of God. That's thinking to small.

Just as the object of all parables is not the subject, Paul's smaller contention, was not God greater contention. It was give in parable--words to live by, yes, but with a greater meaning that must be explained...as it is with many parables.

God did not create gender to portray the kingdom of God as having a Mr. & Mrs. God.

He rather took woman from the man to portray them as becoming one flesh again, and then after we should have understood that much, He revealed the greater mystery of marriage (first by Jesus, and then through Paul), as portraying the church as the bride, and Christ as the Bridegroom.

Now, for those who want to continue the elementary understanding of "women being silent in church"...do you really want to exclude yourself from the church which is the bride of Christ, who are all portrayed in the scriptures being as women becoming One with Christ, the Bridegroom? I should think not.

Who then should "be silent in church?" All, should be silent. This is why that little story of unruly women made it into the greater context of the holy scriptures for all eternity. Who then, should speak? Did Christ not explain, that "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you?"

So Jesus and Paul did not ultimately mean to silence women, but to speak to all by His own spirit. Which is not to say that men and women do not have their perspective roles to portray. Nor is it to say that men have more of the Holy Spirit to offer. But it is the will of God that we portray Him properly before those who are coming into the church having been drawn, not by men or women, but by God.

Therefore, men and women alike should be silent in church, not speaking their own words, but God's. Period. This is the will of God for the church, for the bride of Christ, that we should make straight the way of the Lord.

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Timothy 2:11-14
I personally don't have a problem with spiritually mature women speaking or taking part in biblical studies. I really appreciate Charity's contributions on the forums and find her posts both thoughtful and insightful, but what do you make of 1 Timothy 2:14 and how is that limited to a single time frame in eternity?

Did you know that men and women rarely use both sides of their brain equally? Human physiology normally favors one hemisphere for men and the opposite hemisphere for women. Want to guess which side governs rational thought and which favors emotion?

You can artificially induce the forming brain to reverse male and female thought through early hormone therapy, and this does happen accidentally sometimes, but it's a rare human being that has a fully functional and fully integrated brain and this is by design (unless you reject scripture and cling to evolutionary theory.) The "roles" of men and women in the family are biologically predetermined, not random chance or choice, but we're being taught to accept the unnatural by the world. Did God make a mistake?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Yes, just as He did Moses (regarding divorce). By no coincidence...which was later corrected by Jesus.

Jesus didn't correct Moses, but explained Moses' permission to divorce as an act of grace " because of the hardness of your hearts."

 

[michaelvpardo]

God did not create gender to portray the kingdom of God as having a Mr. & Mrs. God.

No, but scripture tells us specifically that the mystery applies to God as the head and the bride as the body. There is to be a unity between them, but the head is the authority not the body. If your toes are telling you what to do, there's something wrong with your feet.

 

[Oceanprayers]

The gender issue keeps popping up..

And those even with the best of intensions of being true and faithful to the word of God, still refer to Paul's commandment for women to be "silent in church" as if that smaller purpose of which Paul spoke was also the greater purpose of God in His word to all generations.

Yes, it was good and appropriate of Paul to address the needs of the time and correct those causing disorder in the church, and that he did. But taking it on that level only, is not the higher way of God. That's thinking to small.

Just as the object of all parables is not the subject, Paul's smaller contention, was not God greater contention. It was give in parable--words to live by, yes, but with a greater meaning that must be explained...as it is with many parables.

God did not create gender to portray the kingdom of God as having a Mr. & Mrs. God.

He rather took woman from the man to portray them as becoming one flesh again, and then after we should have understood that much, He revealed the greater mystery of marriage (first by Jesus, and then through Paul), as portraying the church as the bride, and Christ as the Bridegroom.

Now, for those who want to continue the elementary understanding of "women being silent in church"...do you really want to exclude yourself from the church which is the bride of Christ, who are all portrayed in the scriptures being as women becoming One with Christ, the Bridegroom? I should think not.

Who then should "be silent in church?" All, should be silent. This is why that little story of unruly women made it into the greater context of the holy scriptures for all eternity. Who then, should speak? Did Christ not explain, that "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you?"

So Jesus and Paul did not ultimately mean to silence women, but to speak to all by His own spirit. Which is not to say that men and women do not have their perspective roles to portray. Nor is it to say that men have more of the Holy Spirit to offer. But it is the will of God that we portray Him properly before those who are coming into the church having been drawn, not by men or women, but by God.

Therefore, men and women alike should be silent in church, not speaking their own words, but God's. Period. This is the will of God for the church, for the bride of Christ, that we should make straight the way of the Lord.

Except women aren't quiet in the church. They're pastors, Sunday school teachers, members of the choir, prayer leaders, elders, and pastor's wives.

Paul being misunderstood isn't to say God agrees. Else he wouldn't call women to serve now, as he did when they walked with Jesus, and served as apostles alongside Paul.

And God's design insures women are the gateway by which new God given life enters this world.

Gender roles? God made Adam and Eve equals in their origin. Both created of and from God.

God said in marriage the two become one.
It's man's sin that calls women deficient because of their sex. Not God who made them to serve as mothers of to the future.

 

[reformed1689]

I agree with God too, as do we all. You're not alone in that.

You can't both agree with God if you don't hold to the same belief.

Women do not have leadership roles in the church. That is what Scripture states. Period.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Except women aren't quiet in the church. They're pastors, Sunday school teachers, members of the choir, prayer leaders, elders, and pastor's wives.

Paul being misunderstood isn't to say God agrees. Else he wouldn't call women to serve now, as he did when they walked with Jesus, and served as apostles alongside Paul.

And God's design insures women are the gateway by which new God given life enters this world.

Gender roles? God made Adam and Eve equals in their origin. Both created of and from God.

God said in marriage the two become one.
It's man's sin that calls women deficient because of their sex. Not God who made them to serve as mothers of to the future.

And this is why women aren't permitted to teach. You've just rejected not only what Genesis says (God made man first and then Eve from his side), but the teaching of the Apostle Paul. You don't want to be like God, you want God to be like you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Who then should "be silent in church?" All, should be silent. This is why that little story of unruly women made it into the greater context of the holy scriptures for all eternity. Who then, should speak? Did Christ not explain, that "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you?"

For a man who spiritualizes, you can sure cover a lot of ground : )

The above I would applaud in theory. In practice, however... you set the bar too high. The context for this teaching was specifically when they were dragged before magistrates and Sanhedrins and interrogated.

11 When you are brought before synagogues, rulers, and authorities, do not worry about how to defend yourselves or what to say. 12 For at that time the Holy Spirit will teach you what you should say.” (Luke 12:11-12)

It is a principle we should live by when important moments and important decisions come. But asking for some more catsup at the Burger King? I think the Lord likely allows us to say it any way we want to, brother.

Just saying.

 

[Oceanprayers]

And this is why women aren't permitted to teach. You've just rejected not only what Genesis says (God made man first and then Eve from his side), but the teaching of the Apostle Paul. You don't want to be like God, you want God to be like you.

If you knew Paul's writings and ministry you'd know how foolish you sound.

 

[reformed1689]

If you knew Paul's writings and ministry you'd know how foolish you sound.

NO, the one who sounded foolish and full of strawman arguments was you.

 

[Oceanprayers]

Actually, God is like me. Because I'm made in his image and likeness.
And being God creates all things both of and from himself, you both sound foolish all the way back to Eden.

Adam's rib was from the dust of the earth God made of and from himself.

It wasn't by a woman that sin entered the world. It was by one man.

Paul praised women apostles in his ministry. Women walked and served with Jesus. Disciple means student. Women and men walked and served with Jesus.

And what is clearly ignored by the two of you? When Paul said we are all one in Christ.
Galatians 3:28

When you don't believe that, you're wrong.

 

[reformed1689]

Actually, God is like me. Because I'm made in his image and likeness.
And being God creates all things both of and from himself, you both sound foolish all the way back to Eden.

Adam's rib was from the dust of the earth God made of and from himself.

It wasn't by a woman that sin entered the world. It was by one man.

Paul praised women apostles in his ministry. Women walked and served with Jesus. Disciple means student. Women and men waljed and served with Jesus.

And what is clearly ignored by the two of you? When Paul said we are all one in Christ.
Galatians 3:28

When you don't believe that, you're wrong.

I do believe that, you have demonstrated you do not read Scripture and take things way out of context. And to say God is like you? That is not only arrogant, it is blasphemous. You clearly do not know what it means to be made in the image of God.

 

[Oceanprayers]

I do believe that, you have demonstrated you do not read Scripture and take things way out of context. And to say God is like you? That is not only arrogant, it is blasphemous. You clearly do not know what it means to be made in the image of God.

Imago Dei.