Jesus is Michael

[marks]

Where did you get the idea...Jesus created Himself???

Jesus created all created things. You say, He didn't create the heaven itself, and He didn't create the earth itself. So I say, follow through that thought. Jesus is not heaven. Jesus is not the earth. So He's not excluded in what you claim He created. So the conclusion to be reached through your logic and presentation is that Jesus must have created Himself.

That doesn't work out.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Scripture teaches Jesus was created by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary... thus the Son of God was created... at that time

Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

But where does it say Jesus was created? I don't see that in your quote here.

Much love!

 

[Pierac]

Another laughable statement. This is called wilful ignorance.

Spoken like a true child of man whom repeats what he hears from his Pastor.... No study needed, no documentation to back up their opinion, just a single line! LOL
I want you to back up your childish comment... I want you to post what YOU believe Philippians 2:5-11 is saying. In detail please describe it's meaning...
Please do a little work, put in at least 8000 words of more

Paul

 

[Pierac]

But where does it say Jesus was created? I don't see that in your quote here.

Much love!

Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

No problem...
The phrase will overshadow is a reference to God's glorious presence at work (Exo_40:34-35; Psa_91:4).
Or "the one born holy will be called the Son of God." The wording of this phrase depends on whether the adjective is a predicate adjective, as in the text, or is an adjective modifying the participle serving as the subject. The absence of an article with the adjective speaks for a predicate position. Other less appealing options supply a verb for "holy"; thus "the one who is born will be holy"; or argue that both "holy" and "Son of God" are predicates, so "The one who is born will be called holy, the Son of God."
A few MSS (C* Θ Ë1 33 pc) add "by you" here. This looks like a scribal addition to bring symmetry to the first three clauses of the angel's message (note the second person pronoun in the previous two clauses), and is too poorly supported to be seriously considered as authentic.
Or "Therefore the holy child to be born will be called the Son of God." There are two ways to understand the Greek phrase τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον (to gennōmenon hagion) here. First, τὸ γεννώμενον could be considered a substantival participle with ἅγιον as an adjective in the second predicate position, thus making a complete sentence; this interpretation is reflected in the translation above. Second, τὸ ἅγιον could be considered a substantival adjective with γεννώμενον acting as an adjectival participle, thus making the phrase the subject of the verb κληθήσεται (klēthēsetai); this interpretation is reflected in the alternative reading. Treating the participle γεννώμενον as adjectival is a bit unnatural for the very reason that it forces one to understand ἅγιον as substantival; this introduces a new idea in the text with ἅγιον when an already new topic is being introduced with γεννώμενον. Semantically this would overload the new subject introduced at this point. For this reason the first interpretation is preferred.

Hope this helps
Paul

 

[marks]

Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

No problem...
The phrase will overshadow is a reference to God's glorious presence at work (Exo_40:34-35; Psa_91:4).
Or "the one born holy will be called the Son of God." The wording of this phrase depends on whether the adjective is a predicate adjective, as in the text, or is an adjective modifying the participle serving as the subject. The absence of an article with the adjective speaks for a predicate position. Other less appealing options supply a verb for "holy"; thus "the one who is born will be holy"; or argue that both "holy" and "Son of God" are predicates, so "The one who is born will be called holy, the Son of God."
A few MSS (C* Θ Ë1 33 pc) add "by you" here. This looks like a scribal addition to bring symmetry to the first three clauses of the angel's message (note the second person pronoun in the previous two clauses), and is too poorly supported to be seriously considered as authentic.
Or "Therefore the holy child to be born will be called the Son of God." There are two ways to understand the Greek phrase τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον (to gennōmenon hagion) here. First, τὸ γεννώμενον could be considered a substantival participle with ἅγιον as an adjective in the second predicate position, thus making a complete sentence; this interpretation is reflected in the translation above. Second, τὸ ἅγιον could be considered a substantival adjective with γεννώμενον acting as an adjectival participle, thus making the phrase the subject of the verb κληθήσεται (klēthēsetai); this interpretation is reflected in the alternative reading. Treating the participle γεννώμενον as adjectival is a bit unnatural for the very reason that it forces one to understand ἅγιον as substantival; this introduces a new idea in the text with ἅγιον when an already new topic is being introduced with γεννώμενον. Semantically this would overload the new subject introduced at this point. For this reason the first interpretation is preferred.

Hope this helps
Paul

It sounds like you are answering a different question again. So it's not really helping.

That the Holy One is born isn't what I'm asking.

You say, His glorious presence at work, yes, incarnating the Messenger of YHWH, Who is Himself YHWH. Creating is not named in your passage here. Nor in your quote from the NET Bible notes, which you do not attribute to them. Were you the writer of those notes?

 

[ReChoired]

LOL...it wasn't meant to be.....its called a response to a bucket load of personal attacks. So shoot me.

Continuing with answering simple questions, that even a Bible teacher of 50 years, ought to be able to answer from scripture. Since you are refusing to answer the questions, I will continue as I have, and answer the questions in your place as if I had asked myself:

"When Jesus said he was "the good shepherd" (John 10:11,14 KJB), what did Jesus say about who alone was "good" elsewhere, and who did the Jews believe was the "shepherd of Israel"?

Jesus said about "good":

Matthew 19:17 - And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mark 10:18 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Who did the Jews believe was the "shepherd of Israel"?

Psa 80:1 - [[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph.]] Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

 

[ReChoired]

LOL...it wasn't meant to be.....its called a response to a bucket load of personal attacks. So shoot me.

Continuing with answering simple questions, that even a Bible teacher of 50 years, ought to be able to answer from scripture. Since you are refusing to answer the questions, I will continue as I have, and answer the questions in your place as if I had asked myself:

Let's consider that understanding of the believing Jews, deeper ...

Psalms 95:7 KJB - For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

1 Kings 22:17 KJB - And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.

2 Chronicles 18:16 KJB - Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace.

Psalms 23:1 KJB - A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

God's people, “the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand ...”

Psalms 80:1 KJB - To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

Isaiah 40:11 KJB - He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Compare:

Matthew 19:14 KJB - But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:14 KJB - But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Luke 18:16 KJB - But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

John 21:15 KJB - So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

John 21:16 KJB - He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

John 21:17 KJB - He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Isaiah 44:28 KJB - That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Ezekiel 34:11 KJB - For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

Ezekiel 34:12 KJB - As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Mark 6:34 KJB - And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.

Those heard the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 10:2 KJB - But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:11 KJB - I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:14 KJB - I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

The great I AM, Jesus, is the Good Shepherd, who knows His, and are known of His:

Isaiah 56:8 KJB - The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

John 10:16 KJB - And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[ReChoired]

LOL...it wasn't meant to be.....its called a response to a bucket load of personal attacks. So shoot me.

Continuing with answering simple questions, that even a Bible teacher of 50 years, ought to be able to answer from scripture. Since you are refusing to answer the questions, I will continue as I have, and answer the questions in your place as if I had asked myself:

Let's consider that understanding of the believing Jews, deeper ...

Which “good shepherd” gave “His life for the sheep”? To whom does the “little flock” belong then, and whose “voice” “shall” “they” “hear”? It is the very voice of Jesus, calling them, “...follow me.”

Psalms 95:6 KJB - O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

Psalms 95:7 KJB - For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

Who saw us like “... sheep without a shepherd ...” [1 Kings 22:17; 2 Chronicles 18:16; Mark 6:34 KJB] and came to “... to seek and to save that which was lost ...” [Luke 19:10 KJB]?

Scripture hath said,

Jeremiah 31:3 KJB - The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Who is it that even had “... appeared of old ...”, and has loved us “... with an everlasting love ...”? Who is it that with “... lovingkindness ...” has “... drawn thee ...”? It is Jesus Christ:

Isaiah 45:22 KJB - Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

John 12:32 KJB - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Think about what is going to the “... uttermost parts of the earth ...” and “... all the ends of the earth ...” even now:

Matthew 26:31 KJB - Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Mark 14:27 KJB - And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

Hebrews 13:20 KJB - Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1 Peter 2:25 KJB - For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

1 Peter 5:4 KJB - And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

John 10:15 KJB - As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Who is it that is coming to gather all of His Sheep from the four corners of the earth, from the four winds of heaven and shall separate the sheep from the goats?

Matthew 24:31 KJB - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:32 KJB - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33 KJB - And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mark 13:27 KJB - And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

We are the sheep of His pasture... and we know His voice... for the Shepherd calls us. He calls those of His sheep to “... come out of her, my people ...”. Do we belong to Him or to another?

Acts 17:27 KJB - That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Compare:

Matthew 28:20 KJB - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Isaiah 42:5 KJB - Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Compare:

John 20:22 KJB - And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

John 10:27 KJB - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Compare:

See again Psalms 95 KJB, for whose voice to follow:

“... Follow me ...”: Matthew 9:9, 16:24, 19:21; Mark 2:14 KJB,

“... his disciples follow him ...”: Mark 6:1, 8:34, 10:21, Luke 5:27, 9:23,59, 18:22; John 1:43, 10:27, 12:26, 13:36, 21:19 KJB,

“... follow thou me ...”: John 21:22 KJB,

“... follow the Lamb ...”: Revelation 14:4 KJB

John 10:3 KJB - To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

John 10:4 KJB - And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Compare:

Deuteronomy 1:30 KJB - The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes;

Deuteronomy 1:33 Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in, in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day.

Matthew 28:7 KJB - And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Mark 16:7 KJB - But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

John 18:37 KJB - Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus is no hireling, but He is the Good and Great Shepherd of the Sheep, God (Deity, as the Person/Being of the Son) manifest in the flesh:

Do we not desire to know the Truth [whom is Jesus], and to heed the voice [Psalms 95:7; Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7, etc KJB] and call of the LORD [JEHOVAH] God? We ought to know from these texts then, that it is Jesus Christ that calleth us. Do we hear Him, do we follow Him? For He is the Way, The Truth and the Life, that Good Shepherd:

Psalms 23:1 KJB - A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

Psalms 23:2 KJB - He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

John 10:3 KJB - To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Jesus said, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20 KJB), but what does the Bible say elsewhere who that is with us?

These are all simple questions, that even a newly born Christian into the faith can answer with humble prayer and diligent searching of scripture, and so especially should a Bible teacher of 50 years ought to be able to answer these with ease.

 

[post]

Firstborn of all creation--proves he was created. Your teachers twist it, but the term all creation is talking about the beginning creation firstborn.

To which of the angels did He ever say?


You have zero legitimate argument.
Get with the Truth ASAP.

 

[Aunty Jane]

These are all simple questions, that even a newly born Christian into the faith can answer with humble prayer and diligent searching of scripture, and so especially should a Bible teacher of 50 years ought to be able to answer these with ease.

You really have a problem with people dismissing your scriptural “proofs”, don’t you? They are nothing but interpretations probably furnished by your “Ellen White”.....? Who said she was a genuine prophet? What proof do you have?
Who said that her visions and dreams were not given to her by the master deceiver? Do you really know? Can you be more positive than a Mormon who believes that Joseph Smith was such a prophet?

There is so much wrong with everything you have said here but seriously, if you think that reading through mountains of successive posts earns you Brownie points, then I’d be surprised if anyone actually read all of that.

You demean people before you speak to them, and then expect that they will hang off your every word....I have news for you.....I’m not hanging on any of them.

Tell someone who cares what you personally believe...it’s all opinion here....do you even comprehend that? You aren’t Jesus Christ...sorry to inform you. You act as if you alone must convert the world....please. SDA's are just another voice here.
This is what Bible debates are about, presenting your arguments and allowing the readers here to make up their own minds.

How did Jesus teach? If his listeners misunderstood him did he run after them saying..."wait! You don't understand! Here let me say this all again because you must believe me."...Or did he just let them think what ever they liked? He ran after no one.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for your response.
I do not reject the trinity, as the word trinity stands, TRI- the prefix meaning 3 and UNITY - meaning united.
(I do reject the Catholic sketch the shows God is/God is not as their explanation.)

There is no trinity in the Bible. Inference does not make a doctrine.

Your conclusion and view sparks my interest.
More personally ...
How do you view, “your word”, or “your heart”, or “your hands”, for example?
Would you say they Are you, or perhaps parts of you that you would say possibly possessed as only yours, as “my”, “mine”, “I”?
Curious, if you don’t mind.

Not sure where this is going, so carry on. I don't like responding to loaded questions.....

 

[ReChoired]

your “Ellen White”.....? Who said she was a genuine prophet? What proof do you have?
Who said that her visions and dreams were not given to her by the master deceiver? Do you really know? Can you be more positive than a Mormon who believes that Joseph Smith was such a prophet?

If you really want to know the answers to those questions, in quite some detail, let me know, and we can begin covering them one by one unto the last. The history for each is well documented.

 

[Curtis]

Why Jesus is NOT Michael:

1. Michael is one among many princes (Daniel 10:13); Jesus is one of a kind (John 3:16; Revelation 19:16)
   
   
2. Jesus created the angels (Colossians 1:16), including Michael
   
   
3. Jesus is higher than the angels (Hebrews 1:1-14; 2:1-18)
   1. Angels are not Sons (Hebrews 1:5) ; Jesus is God’s Son (Matthew 3:17)
      
      
   2. Angels worship the Son (Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 19:10; 22:8-9)
      
      
   3. Angels will not rule the world (Hebrews 2:5); Jesus will (Psalm 2:6)
4. Michael does not rebuke Satan (Jude 9); Jesus does (Matthew 4:10; 16:
5. Michael is distinguished from the Lord (Jude 9; Philippians 2:11)
   
   
6. Jesus (Revelation 12:5) is distinguished from Michael (Revelation 12:7). How could Jesus be Michael if they are both separate characters in the same story?

 

[ReChoired]

This is what Bible debates are about, presenting your arguments and allowing the readers here to make up their own minds.

I am officially inviting you for a one to one discussion (or debate if you prefer) in these public forums in the 'debate' section, moderated, with rules agreed upon.

I would like to suggest we do 3 topics of discussion. You choose the first topic and present on it (we can decide how many posts or word limits, etc as needed), and then I present on that subject (no need for debate counterpoints, unless you would like that). Then I choose a subject and present on it (after the same manner as before) and then you present on it. Then we open a public poll for the forum to chose out 3rd topic for us, with majority vote wins, and you may present first on that topic if you like, or if you prefer I go ahead with yourself following is fine. We can include a brief bio or background history of ourselves before the three subjects if you would like.

We can make everything official and in writing before beginning, with both of us and moderation agreeing to terms.

What say you?

I am ready and willing to put my Faith's position in the public arena and publically scrutinized.

 

[Taken]

There is no trinity in the Bible. Inference does not make a doctrine.


Not sure where this is going, so carry on. I don't like responding to loaded questions.....

Harmonizing Scripture reveals Knowledge.
What do you think is...the meaning of:

Matt 28:
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why three Names ?
What are the three Names ?

 

[Keiw]

To which of the angels did He ever say?


You have zero legitimate argument.
Get with the Truth ASAP.

Jesus tells the truth-John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- here ( John 4:22-24) he warns against the God one is serving then tells all who the true God is--the Father. Here Paul tells all who God is-1Cor 8:6= the Father.

 

[post]

Jesus tells the truth-John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- here ( John 4:22-24) he warns against the God one is serving then tells all who the true God is--the Father. Here Paul tells all who God is-1Cor 8:6= the Father.

To the Son He says, "Your throne, oh God"

 

[ReChoired]

Harmonizing Scripture reveals Knowledge.
What do you think is...the meaning of:

Matt 28:
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why three Names ?
What are the three Names ?

Not three names. 1 Family Name - 3 Persons.

 

[Keiw]

To the Son He says, "Your throne, oh God"

Mistranslation by Catholicism to fit false council teachings, same in the last line at John 1:1--same in the OT- there is no i am that i am in Hebrew. I will be what i will be is the way it translates to english.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you really want to know the answers to those questions, in quite some detail, let me know, and we can begin covering them one by one unto the last. The history for each is well documented.

I'll pass thanks....she is your prophet, not mine.