All eschatological views are correct?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,048
1,389
113
69
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Mar 9:43-48 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— (44) where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' (45) And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— (46) where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' (47) And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— (48) where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'

QUOTE FROM MATTHEW HENRY'S COMMENTARY on this passage:

With what an emphasis of terror are those words repeated three times here, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched! The words are quoted from Isaiah 66:24.
(1.) The reflections and reproaches of the sinner's own conscience are the worm that dieth not; which will cleave to the damned soul as the worms do to the dead body, and prey upon it, and never leave it till it is quite devoured. Son, remember, will set this worm gnawing; and how terrible will it bite that word (Pro_5:12, Pro_5:23), How have I hated instruction! The soul that is food to this worm, dies not; and the worm is bred in it, and one with it, and therefore neither doth that die. Damned sinners will be to eternity accusing, condemning, and upbraiding, themselves with their own follies, which, how much soever they are now in love with them, will at the last bite like a serpent, and sting like an adder.
(2.) The wrath of God fastening upon a guilty and polluted conscience, is the fire that is not quenched; for it is the wrath of the living God, the eternal God, into whose hands it is a fearful thing to fall. There are no operations of the Spirit of grace upon the souls of the damned sinners, and therefore there is nothing to alter the nature of the fuel, which must remain for ever combustible; nor is there any application of the merit of Christ to them, and therefore there is nothing to appease or quench the violence of the fire. Dr. Whitby shows that the eternity of the torments of hell was not only the constant faith of the Christian church, but had been so of the Jewish church. Josephus saith, The Pharisees held that the souls of the wicked were to be punished with perpetual punishment; and that there was appointed for them a perpetual prison. And Philo saith, The punishment of the wicked is to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains and griefs that never cease.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yeah, yeah, and destroy means not destroy but rather means torture. Forever.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Once again, since you never seem to tire, take the word eternal out and I agree.
I cant remove the words "For Ever And Ever" as you desire, there will be a consequence for doing such

Revelation 22:19KJV
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 

doxley

Member
Jan 29, 2022
79
67
18
60
Yorkshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
This is why I don't frequent churches and christian establishments. You would think you would be walking into a room full of loving kindly people, then someone turns around and talks about Bill down the road who is going to be tortured in hell eternally. It not only puts many Christians off, but it's why many people don't even entertain Christianity. It's violent, viscous and makes God sound like a psychopath..

THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED
Metaphores, the errors they made will never be forgotten. But believe what you want.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Mar 9:43-48 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— (44) where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' (45) And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— (46) where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' (47) And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— (48) where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'

QUOTE FROM MATTHEW HENRY'S COMMENTARY on this passage:

With what an emphasis of terror are those words repeated three times here, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched! The words are quoted from Isaiah 66:24.
(1.) The reflections and reproaches of the sinner's own conscience are the worm that dieth not; which will cleave to the damned soul as the worms do to the dead body, and prey upon it, and never leave it till it is quite devoured. Son, remember, will set this worm gnawing; and how terrible will it bite that word (Pro_5:12, Pro_5:23), How have I hated instruction! The soul that is food to this worm, dies not; and the worm is bred in it, and one with it, and therefore neither doth that die. Damned sinners will be to eternity accusing, condemning, and upbraiding, themselves with their own follies, which, how much soever they are now in love with them, will at the last bite like a serpent, and sting like an adder.
(2.) The wrath of God fastening upon a guilty and polluted conscience, is the fire that is not quenched; for it is the wrath of the living God, the eternal God, into whose hands it is a fearful thing to fall. There are no operations of the Spirit of grace upon the souls of the damned sinners, and therefore there is nothing to alter the nature of the fuel, which must remain for ever combustible; nor is there any application of the merit of Christ to them, and therefore there is nothing to appease or quench the violence of the fire. Dr. Whitby shows that the eternity of the torments of hell was not only the constant faith of the Christian church, but had been so of the Jewish church. Josephus saith, The Pharisees held that the souls of the wicked were to be punished with perpetual punishment; and that there was appointed for them a perpetual prison. And Philo saith, The punishment of the wicked is to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains and griefs that never cease.
It appears that Matthew Henry also denied a place of conscious eternal torment of the wicked in the lake if fire
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I cant remove the words "For Ever And Ever" as you desire, there will be a consequence for doing such

Revelation 22:19KJV
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Hah! I don’t want you to remove them from the passage as it stands.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pompadour

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is why I don't frequent churches and christian establishments. You would think you would be walking into a room full of loving kindly people, then someone turns around and talks about Bill down the road who is going to be tortured in hell eternally. It not only puts many Christians off, but it's why many people don't even entertain Christianity. It's violent, viscous and makes God sound like a psychopath..

THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED
Metaphores, the errors they made will never be forgotten. But believe what you want.
If there is any question, it’s always best for men to refuse to judge and if any error is made, it should always be toward mercy, not away from mercy, as regards others.
 
  • Like
Reactions: doxley

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is why I don't frequent churches and christian establishments. You would think you would be walking into a room full of loving kindly people, then someone turns around and talks about Bill down the road who is going to be tortured in hell eternally. It not only puts many Christians off, but it's why many people don't even entertain Christianity. It's violent, viscous and makes God sound like a psychopath..

THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED
Metaphores, the errors they made will never be forgotten. But believe what you want.

If any doctrine turns men vicious, I reject it, and go looking for where the mistake was made.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938 and doxley

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hah! I don’t want you to remove them from the passage as it stands.
And the words "For Ever And Ever" won't be removed in my belief either, the wicked will suffer eternal conscious torment, just as scripture teaches
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If any doctrine turns men vicious, I reject it, and go looking for where the mistake was made.
Nobody has turned viscious as you suggest, it's been a pleasure in learning your belief concerning eternal torment of the wicked, being their (Monumental Smoke) is tormented for ever and ever, but not the actual wicked are consciously tormented eternally

Perhaps you can now share your belief concerning the wicked upon death, and the soul sleeps unconsciously, with no torment in "Hell"?
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When I say that I mean the eternal aspect of it. I'm probably not explaining myself clearly.
What would God need to say to express eternal torment?

Perhaps, "and these shall go into everlasting torment" . . . would that do it?

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truth7t7

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What would God need to say to express eternal torment?

Perhaps, "and these shall go into everlasting torment" . . . would that do it?

Much love!

Verse please. Unless you meant to say “eternal punishment?”
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I’m sorry, I think ESV does say that…
Edit: no, I can’t find it.
One mention of outer darkness, one mention of eternal fire.

It never says outer darkness is thrown into the lake of fire and, eternal fire means eternal fire, which begins to make annihilation sound like a more merciful fate than outer darkness. Since men don’t have eternal life apart from being given the Holy Spirit, outer darkness begins to sound like the worst fate because from what I read, it IS forever.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: doxley and ewq1938

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Verse please. Unless you meant to say “eternal punishment?”
Before your eyes in "Bold Red"

"He Shall Be Tormented"

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Before your eyes in "Bold Red"

"He Shall Be Tormented"

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Yes…? Did you forget to tack on eternally there?