All eschatological views are correct?

[stunnedbygrace]

Eew…I just got this…umm…flash of something, in my head. It was words. They were sort of…spoken AND written at the same time. They were: who exactly is the accuser of the brethren?

 

[doxley]

Eew…I just got this…umm…flash of something, in my head. It was words. They were sort of…spoken AND written at the same time. They were: who exactly is the accuser of the brethren?

revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night

 

[CadyandZoe]

The argument is your claim of "literal" and you have been shown you dont believe the wicked will suffer literal conscious eternal torment, it's that simple

Actually, her argument is that the literal conscience torment doesn't last into eternity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you read that passage very literally, it’s the SMOKE that goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest or relief day or night. Is there a difference between forever and day and night? Forever is forever. Day and night will eventually end.

I agree, and one more thing. When it says they have no rest day or night, I believe this speaks of their time on this earth, not their time in the lake of fire. I think we are seeing this state of mind today. Some people are never satisfied with the current state of affairs. If a change is made to accommodate them, they want more. And if the change isn't happening quick enough, they get angry and pout. Such people are tormented day and night: never satisfied, never happy, lacking love and peace and solitude.

Have you seen this?

 

[doxley]

If Bill were on a road leading into a fire, would you consider it wise to warn him?

Much love!

Marks, sometimes I have to walk away for a while regarding this subject. I get really fired up. I feel it misrepresents God, BIG TIME!

I don't think Bill is interested, for the majority of the world who aren't christians, or any other religion, the reality of a God who is supposed to love us, and yet will torture us in hell eternally if we do the wrong thing doesn't sound realistic. Their 'bs' detector goes off big time, and I don't blame them.

I think it's important that christians re-evaluate what they have been taught in mainstream churches over the centuries. I think now is a good time to do it. We have so much extra information at our fingertips, and I don't think that is an accident. Jesus is 'The Word', let's study that word diligently without pre-conceived ideas of what everything means. Just a suggestion, with love.

 

[Truth7t7]

Actually, her argument is that the literal conscience torment doesn't last into eternity.

And my quote below states the same as you reference above "exactly"

Quote Truth7t7: you dont believe the wicked will suffer literal conscious eternal torment

 

[Truth7t7]

Marks, sometimes I have to walk away for a while regarding this subject. I get really fired up. I feel it misrepresents God, BIG TIME!

I don't think Bill is interested, for the majority of the world who aren't christians, or any other religion, the reality of a God who is supposed to love us, and yet will torture us in hell eternally if we do the wrong thing doesn't sound realistic. Their 'bs' detector goes off big time, and I don't blame them.

I think it's important that christians re-evaluate what they have been taught in mainstream churches over the centuries. I think now is a good time to do it. We have so much extra information at our fingertips, and I don't think that is an accident. Jesus is 'The Word', let's study that word diligently without pre-conceived ideas of what everything means. Just a suggestion, with love.

It's not a matter of what you think or feel, in your call for re-evaluation of the wicked being judged to conscious eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Scripture teaches this biblical truth as seen below, and you nor the (Jehovah's Witnesses) are going to change it any time soon

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree, and one more thing. When it says they have no rest day or night, I believe this speaks of their time on this earth, not their time in the lake of fire. I think we are seeing this state of mind today. Some people are never satisfied with the current state of affairs. If a change is made to accommodate them, they want more. And if the change isn't happening quick enough, they get angry and pout. Such people are tormented day and night: never satisfied, never happy, lacking love and peace and solitude.

Have you seen this?

And your claim and belief isnt found in scripture.

(No rest day and night) will be in the presence of God and the Holy Angel's, and this dosent represent this physical earth in Revelation 14:9-11

You can deny literal conscious eternal torment of the wicked all you want, and you dont stand alone, as the (Jehovah's Witnesses) believe the same

 

[doxley]

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

What does this mean? What is worshiping the beast or the mark?

 

[doxley]

It's not a matter of what you think or feel, in your call for re-evaluation of the wicked being judged to conscious eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Scripture teaches this biblical truth as seen below, and you nor the (Jehovah's Witnesses) are going to change it any time soon

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You still can't make this passage say that people who don't follow Jesus are tormented eternally, there is room for other explanations. Also "The smoke of their torment" is talking about a symbol of their torment, not their actual torment, why not just say their torment goes on forever and ever, but it doesn't say that does it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And my quote below states the same as you reference above "exactly"

Quote Truth7t7: you dont believe the wicked will suffer literal conscious eternal torment

But into eternity though? I don't think she ever claimed that people won't ever suffer. Her objection is unending suffering. Nothing in the Bible talks about unending suffering. After all, anything thrown into a lake of fire would immediately be destroyed.

 

[Truth7t7]

You still can't make this passage say that people who don't follow Jesus are tormented eternally, there is room for other explanations. Also "The smoke of their torment" is talking about a symbol of their torment, not their actual torment, why not just say their torment goes on forever and ever, but it doesn't say that does it.

You can deny the lake of fire in eternal conscious torment all you want, it's not going to change the fact

Those not found in the Lambs book of life are cast into the lake of fire, you won't change this biblical truth

Revelation 20:15KJV
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Eew…I just got this…umm…flash of something, in my head. It was words. They were sort of…spoken AND written at the same time. They were: who exactly is the accuser of the brethren?

I think the answer comes from the book of Job. Who accused Job?

 

[Truth7t7]

But into eternity though? I don't think she ever claimed that people won't ever suffer. Her objection is unending suffering. Nothing in the Bible talks about unending suffering. After all, anything thrown into a lake of fire would immediately be destroyed.

Once Again, And Again, And Again, exactly what my claim states below, will you post the same thing once more?

Quote Truth7t7: you dont believe the wicked will suffer literal conscious eternal torment

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I agree, and one more thing. When it says they have no rest day or night, I believe this speaks of their time on this earth, not their time in the lake of fire. I think we are seeing this state of mind today. Some people are never satisfied with the current state of affairs. If a change is made to accommodate them, they want more. And if the change isn't happening quick enough, they get angry and pout. Such people are tormented day and night: never satisfied, never happy, lacking love and peace and solitude.

Have you seen this?

I have seen that for many years now. First I saw it only in others but then I began to see I was the same way. It’s our condition before He heals our sick mind and heart. And it does seem to be accelerating or…churning more? To the point where our conditioning in politeness and manners is even unraveling and not able to dampen it. I’ve thought, but you’re just old now, and you’re like old people in the 50’s railing against Elvis. But then I think maybe it’s true that I really am seeing a fomenting and unraveling…because it isn’t just in my country. It’s worldwide churning, just like the pestilence of COVID is worldwide. I saw hints of it around the time of the Arab Spring but it quieted again. But now it’s everywhere from the news.

I do see what you’re saying, and I never had rest, day or night, until God put my passions under my feet, but I can’t quite get to the point of saying this IS the lake of fire…but I see that GOD is a consuming fir, burning out the rot, a tester of metals burning off our slag.

 

[Truth7t7]

But into eternity though? I don't think she ever claimed that people won't ever suffer. Her objection is unending suffering. Nothing in the Bible talks about unending suffering. After all, anything thrown into a lake of fire would immediately be destroyed.

Your claim is false, as you promote the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and 7th Day Adventist (Annihilation)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think the answer comes from the book of Job. Who accused Job?

Yeah, but the icky eew feeling was that it was a specific person, not the unembodied being of Satan.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And see Cady, it’s happening with you now as well, the accusing of you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Marks, sometimes I have to walk away for a while regarding this subject. I get really fired up. I feel it misrepresents God, BIG TIME!

I don't think Bill is interested, for the majority of the world who aren't christians, or any other religion, the reality of a God who is supposed to love us, and yet will torture us in hell eternally if we do the wrong thing doesn't sound realistic. Their 'bs' detector goes off big time, and I don't blame them.

I think it's important that christians re-evaluate what they have been taught in mainstream churches over the centuries. I think now is a good time to do it. We have so much extra information at our fingertips, and I don't think that is an accident. Jesus is 'The Word', let's study that word diligently without pre-conceived ideas of what everything means. Just a suggestion, with love.

Beware the leaven of men. We were warned, many times.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And your claim and belief isnt found in scripture.

(No rest day and night) will be in the presence of God and the Holy Angel's, and this dosent represent this physical earth in Revelation 14:9-11

You can deny literal conscious eternal torment of the wicked all you want, and you dont stand alone, as the (Jehovah's Witnesses) believe the same

I'm reading the same scriptures you are reading. You and I simply disagree over what they mean. if your argument was stronger, I doubt whether you would resort to accusations. Right?

Let me ask you a question. Is smoke used symbolically or literally in the book of Revelation? (smoke of prayers e.g.)