The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[quietthinker]

You are saying that Bible is wrong when it says the witch of Endor spoke to someone other than Samuel, because the Bible says she did speak to Samuel, but you say that's wrong, that she didn't.

Can you guess which I'm going to believe?

Much love!

I suppose you'll believe the one who said 'you shall not surely die'

 

[marks]

the text 'you shall surely die' can also be appropriately interpreted 'dying you will die'.....and you must know this marks.

What day did they die?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I suppose you'll believe the one who said 'you shall not surely die'

Again, my point is . . . they did in fact die, on that very day, as it is written.

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm the guy saying that on the day God said Adam would die, the day he ate from the forbidden tree, that he actually did in fact die, just like God said, and that the Biblical use of death is separation, not cessation. We don't need all this baggage on it, we just need to accept the simple statements when we are forming our ideas.

Adam died. Death is separation.

Much love!

Let's make sure we properly define our terms:

Death means "separation from God" only in the present: "She that liveth in pleasure IS dead while she liveth".

Death means "cessation of life" when our lives come to an end at some point in the future: "The Soul that sinneth, it SHALL die".

Again, if the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, how can that Soul continue to exist once the Body returns to the ground, the Breath to God, and this union is no more?

It can't.

 

[marks]

Death means "separation from God" only in the present:

Interesting supposition, but what why the changing definition? For me the meaning of death in Scripture remains consistent throughout.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Again, if the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, how can that Soul continue to exist once the Body returns to the ground, the Breath to God, and this union is no more?

Yes, like electricity and the lightbulb, just the same, God is - IS the God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and God is not the God of the dead but the living. Jesus pointed that out to show that death is not cessation of existence as the Saducees thought. And we debate it here today, but that was Jesus' answer.

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

My only suggestion should you truly want to experience my POV would be to read all the places that speak of death - All of them - and form an understanding of what death is that is applicable in EVERY case.

But I'm not trying to convince you, only point to what the Bible says.

Much love!

Thanks, but I think it's the Immortal Soul crowd that willingly ignores these same texts, usually by reason that somehow the NT is more authoritative than the OT.

For instance, Psalms 146:4 KJV says of a dead man: "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish".

Yes, I know people argue, "Oh, that's talking about their body" as if God thinks we're too stupid to know there's nothing going on in the head of a deceased person, but somehow the first lie in Scripture "Ye shall not surely die" - needs no damage control clarification at all, right?

 

[Phoneman777]

Interesting supposition, but what why the changing definition? For me the meaning of death in Scripture remains consistent throughout.

Much love!

OK, I'm going to hold your feet to the fire, friend
Let's lay aside all preconceived notions for a moment and focus on Genesis 2:7 KJV, shall we?

This verse teaches the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

If you hadn't read a single thing else in Scripture, wouldn't you simply conclude that at death when this union is broken and the Spirit returns to God and the Body to the dust, the Soul would just cease to be, as light from a bulb ceases to shine once the current is switched off? If so, doesn't that warrant an investigation into whether the texts used to support "Immortal Soul" doctrine can be interpreted differently?

 

[Enoch111]

Where there is smoke, there is _fire__.

There's the answer. The fire is never extinguished yet it creates smoke. So both remain there eternally.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are saying that Bible is wrong when it says the witch of Endor spoke to someone other than Samuel, because the Bible says she did speak to Samuel, but you say that's wrong, that she didn't.

Can you guess which I'm going to believe?

Much love!

There are two options to consider:
1) The Bible calls the spirit "Samuel" because it was indeed Samuel.
2) The Bible calls the spirit "Samuel" because it was a familiar spirit impersonating Samuel.

Now, let's ask Job and Solomon what they think about dead people:
"Till the heavens be no more, they shall not wake nor be raised out of their sleep". - Job
"His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not; they are brought low, yet he perceiveth it not". - Job
"He shall return no more to his house". - Job
"Neither have they anymore a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun". - Solomon
"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything". - Solomon

Option 2: We maintain Scriptural harmony and must look elsewhere for "proof" of Immortal Soul doctrine.

Option 1: We recklessly ignore the resulting Scriptural disharmony because when it comes to earnestly contending for the faith, "consistency" not only ceases to be a "jewel", but becomes a casualty of war.

 

[quietthinker]

There's the answer. The fire is never extinguished yet it creates smoke. So both remain there eternally.

Just as the dump outside of Jerusalem (Gehenna) never went out....it smouldered and smoked continuously. Oh, by the way, if you can forward the GPS coordinates for this dump so I can check to see if it's still alight today.....wouldn't wanna make a mistake. ....and while you're at it, the everlasting fire that fell on Sodom and Gomorrah which consumed these cities....or could it be that this is where Israel gets its nuclear capabilities from?

and finally.......ahhhhh, thank you for your forgiveness; I knew you wouldn't feel threatened by my forwardness.

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes, like electricity and the lightbulb, just the same, God is - IS the God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and God is not the God of the dead but the living. Jesus pointed that out to show that death is not cessation of existence as the Saducees thought. And we debate it here today, but that was Jesus' answer.

Much love!

Did I share with you how Tyndale rebuked Catholic Sir Thomas Moore for using this very same argument you're using? Look, I'm sure you've put in some serious study, but let's lay aside the 21st century "wisdom" of false pulpit prophets who got one hand on the Bible and the other on a porn app, and let's listen to the wisdom of a true Christian man who left his testimony written in his own BLOOD in the fight for Gospel truth:

William Tyndale's An Answer To Sir Thomas Moore:

"The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it."

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

"And when he [Moore] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for He is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument, wherewith He proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect."

​

 

[post]

There are two options to consider:
1) The Bible calls the spirit "Samuel" because it was indeed Samuel.
2) The Bible calls the spirit "Samuel" because it was a familiar spirit impersonating Samuel.

these diverse options give two immediately divergent implications:

1. the Bible is true
2. the Bible lies

Saul went there in disguise.
does the scripture still call him Saul?

i don't care if you cite 100 verses with the implication that they make the Bible untrue.
the fact will be that you have misinterpreted all 100 of them.


it is a common, running theme with you that, for the sake of your private interpretations, you claim the Author of scripture to be a liar.

 

[Taken]

why can't created beings like angels die?
who told you that?
why did you assume that?
Whose breath is the breath of life?
how many breaths of life are there?

It is a conclusion manifested BY, THOUGH, OF hearing, reading, learning, Gods Word of Knowledge and Receiving Gods Gift of His Understanding.

I can neither point you to a billeted LIST in Scripture, nor Understand For you.
You have opportunity to do your own work. Hear, Read, Study.
Word search Gods Word throughout Scripture.<—- which IS studying.
Any Word....good, holy, celestial, terrestrial, spirit, created, made, evil, wicked, trust, believe, confess, “IF...THEN”, etc.
....Apply it in context to “who, what, when, why, where”....
....”IF” YOU are the “WHO”, in context...then it applies TO YOU.
....”IF” YOU ARE NOT THE “WHO” in context...then it does not apply TO YOU.

EXAMPLE:
1 Cor 15:
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Celestial IS heavenly. Terrestrial IS earthly.
Celestial IS created ‘HOLY”. Terrestrial IS created “GOOD”.
BOTH Creations are “CREATED”, then “MADE” “ALIVE”, by the POWER of God.
BOTH the Created and Made “alive”.....HAVE FREEWILL...
....To KEEP, their HOLINESS
....To KEEP, their GOODNESS
....To REJECT, their HOLINESS
....To REJECT, their GOODNESS
BOTH the Created and Made “alive” HAVE their OWN “ESTATE”.
... A Celestials Estate IS Heaven.
... A Terrestrial Estate IS Earth.
BOTH the Created and Made “alive”...CAN LOSE their “status”....OF HOLY....OF GOOD and “LOSE access TO their ESTATE, (BECAUSE OF THEIR Freewill CHOICES).
... A Celestial...was Created and Made “SPIRITS”...and “HOLY”

Heb 1:13-14
[13] But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Tob 11:
[14] And he wept, and said, Blessed art thou, O God, and blessed is thy name for ever; and blessed are all thine holy angels:

Angels are celestials. Angels were created Holy. Angels are Spirits. Angels have Freewill. Angels that REMAIN Holy are Blessed.
* What about the Holy Angels the Freely Choose to Reject God?
...The Lose their “holiness”, they Lose their “estate”, they Lose being Blessed by God...They are called FALLEN...They are called DEMONIC...They are called Devils.

Isa 14:12 KJV
How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground...ie EARTH.
Rev 16:14 ESV
For they are demonic spirits...
Matt 25: KJV
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Angels ARE NOT CALLED DEAD. They REMAIN HOLY WITH God, or they Lose their HOLINESS, and become Separated from God, Sent to A flaming fire pit in Hell Forever.
Luke 20:
[36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

* Human men ...... ARE Earthly Terrestrial BODYS....THEY ARE NOT SPIRITS
1 Cor 6:
[20] For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Gal.6
[18] Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

** Human men “HAVE” a spirit within their BODY.
* a Human mans “Natural SPIRIT”, IS his “NATURAL TRUTH IN His Heart”...
(NOT his MIND.......rather IN his HEART).

* A human man has been Offered, by, through, of Jesus, (God Word) TO HAVE HIS “NATURAL SPIRIT”....BECOME “MADE” A “spiritual Spirit”...by, through, of Christ (WHO IS Gods POWER)....via Gods SEED....(WHO IS CHRIST), Via Making the man A NEW HEART, via Gods SEED via entering the mans NEW HEART, and Re- BIRTHING that mans “natural spirit of a mans seed”.......to “REBORN SPIRIT via Gods SEED”...and Receiving a NEW TRUTH....ie Gods TRUTH.

Ezekiel 18:
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. ——>

THEN shall that mans SPIRIT, BE “LIKE” an Angel (who IS Spirit), who can NEVER DIE.

Rev
define death and life as God defines it:

I AM The Life
(John 14:6)​

whoever does not have the Son does not have life
(1 John 5:12)
​

** WORD STUDY!! IN Context!
God, (called by whatever Name), IS Spirit, IS Life, IS without beginning, IS without Ending, Can NOT DIE. He IS ( the Giver, Taker, Giver, Taker......OF LIFE.)

ALL PHYSICAL EARTHLY FLESH natural body’s LIFE IS IT’S “BLOOD”.
ALL physical earthly flesh natural body’s LIFE (Blood) SHALL DIE....
God Requires it! (Gen 9:5)

ALL souls BELONG TO GOD. (Ezekiel 18:4)
ALL souls have Gods BREATH OF LIFE IN those souls, WITHOUT the mans Consent.
ALL Living souls IN a body, Bring the body into a living state, (WITHOUT the mans Asking, or Consent, or Agreement. It is Gods WORKS, without a mans
Consideration of WHAT He wants or asks for.)
Gods Living souls IN a body, IS called by the NAME of that BODY.
ALL living souls DEPART a BODY of a man, when the BODY IS DYING.
ALL Departed Living souls, GO where God SENDS that living soul.
The SAVED souls, are escorted by holy angels TO Heaven to wait judgement.
The UNSAVED souls, are sent to Hell to wait judgement.

* A NATURAL spirit of man, shall remain natural, die along with his natural BODILY Death... UNLESS that individual man Freely decides, Freely chooses, Freely calls on the Lord TO ACCEPT HIS OFFERING to MAKE that man a NEW SPIRIT, born of Gods SEED, that shall NEVER DIE...he certainly MAY NOT BE soul saved, NOT Be spirit quickened, NOT Be bodily glorified, NOT Be forever......WITH the Lord God.
That mans bodys life (blood) shall die.
That mans soul life (Gods breath shall return to God).
That mans natural spirit was Never MADE reborn.
That man SHALL, BE completely LIFELESS, body and soul destroyed IN HELL...and FOREVER forgotten...By God, By All saved men.

now, does Satan have Christ? Satan has everlasting Life from God.
do unbelievers exist? Sure. Open ears, men open their mouth and testify they do not believe, IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ. Not a phenomena. Not secret.
or are they temporary deceptions of your imagination? How silly. Am I imagining you exist? Am I imagining you are putting your words in text? Are YOU imagining I am responding to you?
if so who is temporarily deceiving you of their existence?

Not so.

 

[Taken]

these diverse options give two immediately divergent implications:

1. the Bible is true
2. the Bible lies

Saul went there in disguise.
does the scripture still call him Saul?

i don't care if you cite 100 verses with the implication that they make the Bible untrue.
the fact will be that you have misinterpreted all 100 of them.


it is a common, running theme with you that, for the sake of your private interpretations, you claim the Author of scripture to be a liar.

The big DEBATE...
All Scripture IS TRUE. I agree that is True.

The big HOAX...
All Scripture DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERY Individual. I agree that is True.

The big SCAM...
Is one Desperately “trying” (Speaking FOR others) to APPLY Scripture TO ANOTHER, which does NOT Apply. I agree that is True

Scripture speaks specifically of person Converted and persons NOT Converted....——> those Scriptures CAN NOT APPLY to the same one person.
I agree that is True.

 

[post]

or instance, Psalms 146:4 KJV says of a dead man: "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish".

עֶשְׁתֹּנָה is dialogismos in Greek, per LXX. it only appears in the OT once.
it doesn't pertain to basic existence of thought but to specific reasoning, intentions, plans, judgements, disputation, deliberation etc.
if i said 'i don't have any dialogismos' i wouldn't be saying that my consciousness does not exist; i would be saying that i don't have any plans; i don't have an opinion on the matter, i don't have a thought-out, logical strategy in mind.

Psalm 146 is not teaching us that God annihilates all souls. it is telling us do not put our trust in men ((like phone-person)); when phone-person's spirit departs from his body then all his plans and intentions come to naught. he is no longer on earth in order to carry any of them out.
this is borne out in Luke 16 -- the rich man certainly continues to exist and have consciousness ((unless you think Jesus teaches lying doctrines of demons? hmm?)), but he cannot act among the living, does not have any influence on them, and cannot interact with them. so he asks Abraham that Lazarus be sent back -- to be resurrected. the rich man still has dialogismos, but they are ruined and impotent and brought to nothing - in fact he comes up with a whole new dialogismos he never had on earth: that of sending Lazarus back to his brothers. from the point of view of the living brothers of the rich fool, in particular, all that wicked man's dialogismos are as much as vanished.


but let's follow his dialogismos through to its logical end as an illustrative example:
he believes Jesus was annihilated when He died. therefore, according to his private interpretation, he also believes that all of Jesus's dialogismos were annihilated at the cross.
so if Psalm 146 is telling us not to put our trust in the dialogismos of men because when their spirit departs, their dialogismos perishes, then phone-person's implication is that we should neither put our trust in Jesus because Jesus, being a man, no longer exists but is annihilated, and all of the plans of Jesus are destroyed.
clearly rubbish, right?

but what is different? why can we trust Jesus, but not trust phone-person? ((as an example))
straightforward: Christ is God. Jesus is the physical manifestation of God, in the flesh. He does not cease to exist, even if He dies, He raises Himself again. no one takes His life - He lays it down, and He picks it up again. His will stands forever; His dialogismos will never pass away, even when heaven and earth pass away.
this is the difference. this is why our Lord is worthy of our trust but phone-person, or the wicked rich man in Luke 16 ((just as a random example)) is not.

 

[Taken]

why can't created beings like angels die?
who told you that?
why did you assume that?
Whose breath is the breath of life?
how many breaths of life are there?

It is a conclusion manifested BY, THOUGH, OF hearing, reading, learning, Gods Word of Knowledge and Receiving Gods Gift of His Understanding.

I can neither point you to a billeted LIST in Scripture, nor Understand For you.
You have opportunity to do your own work. Hear, Read, Study.
Word search Gods Word throughout Scripture.<—- which IS studying.
Any Word....good, holy, celestial, terrestrial, spirit, created, made, evil, wicked, trust, believe, confess, “IF...THEN”, etc.
....Apply it in context to “who, what, when, why, where”....
....”IF” YOU are the “WHO”, in context...then it applies TO YOU.
....”IF” YOU ARE NOT THE “WHO” in context...then it does not apply TO YOU.

EXAMPLE:
1 Cor 15:
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Celestial IS heavenly. Terrestrial IS earthly.
Celestial IS created ‘HOLY”. Terrestrial IS created “GOOD”.
BOTH Creations are “CREATED”, then “MADE” “ALIVE”, by the POWER of God.
BOTH the Created and Made “alive”.....HAVE FREEWILL...
....To KEEP, their HOLINESS
....To KEEP, their GOODNESS
....To REJECT, their HOLINESS
....To REJECT, their GOODNESS
BOTH the Created and Made “alive” HAVE their OWN “ESTATE”.
... A Celestials Estate IS Heaven.
... A Terrestrial Estate IS Earth.
BOTH the Created and Made “alive”...CAN LOSE their “status”....OF HOLY....OF GOOD and “LOSE access TO their ESTATE, (BECAUSE OF THEIR Freewill CHOICES).
... A Celestial...was Created and Made “SPIRITS”...and “HOLY”

Heb 1:13-14
[13] But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Tob 11:
[14] And he wept, and said, Blessed art thou, O God, and blessed is thy name for ever; and blessed are all thine holy angels:

Angels are celestials. Angels were created Holy. Angels are Spirits. Angels have Freewill. Angels that REMAIN Holy are Blessed.
* What about the Holy Angels the Freely Choose to Reject God?
...The Lose their “holiness”, they Lose their “estate”, they Lose being Blessed by God...They are called FALLEN...They are called DEMONIC...They are called Devils.

Isa 14:12 KJV
How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground...ie EARTH.
Rev 16:14 ESV
For they are demonic spirits...
Matt 25: KJV
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Angels ARE NOT CALLED DEAD. They REMAIN HOLY WITH God, or they Lose their HOLINESS, and become Separated from God, Sent to A flaming fire pit in Hell Forever.
Luke 20:
[36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

* Human men ...... ARE Earthly Terrestrial BODYS....THEY ARE NOT SPIRITS
1 Cor 6:
[20] For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Gal.6
[18] Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

** Human men “HAVE” a spirit within their BODY.
* a Human mans “Natural SPIRIT”, IS his “NATURAL TRUTH IN His Heart”...
(NOT his MIND.......rather IN his HEART).

* A human man has been Offered, by, through, of Jesus, (God Word) TO HAVE HIS “NATURAL SPIRIT”....BECOME “MADE” A “spiritual Spirit”...by, through, of Christ (WHO IS Gods POWER)....via Gods SEED....(WHO IS CHRIST), Via Making the man A NEW HEART, via Gods SEED via entering the mans NEW HEART, and Re- BIRTHING that mans “natural spirit of a mans seed”.......to “REBORN SPIRIT via Gods SEED”...and Receiving a NEW TRUTH....ie Gods TRUTH.

Ezekiel 18:
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. ——>

THEN shall that mans SPIRIT, BE “LIKE” an Angel (who IS Spirit), who can NEVER DIE....and Remember Conversion, IS an EXPRESS Freewill request of the individual.

Rev
define death and life as God defines it:

I AM The Life
(John 14:6)​

whoever does not have the Son does not have life
(1 John 5:12)
​

** WORD STUDY!! IN Context!
God, (called by whatever Name), IS Spirit, IS Life, IS without beginning, IS without Ending, Can NOT DIE. He IS ( the Giver, Taker, Giver, Taker......OF LIFE.)

ALL PHYSICAL EARTHLY FLESH natural body’s LIFE IS IT’S “BLOOD”.
ALL physical earthly flesh natural body’s LIFE (Blood) SHALL DIE....
God Requires it! (Gen 9:5)

ALL souls BELONG TO GOD.

now, does Satan have Christ?

No one said Satan has “Christ”....however Satan IS a Spirit, IS living, IS NOT Subject to Death....same as a Man who HAS a Spirit born of God, IS NOT Subject to Death. Spiritual Spirits do not Die....Corrupt Spiritual Spirits become Separated from God, a TYPE of death that is NOT Physical.

do unbelievers exist?

Sure. Have you never heard their testimony?

or are they temporary deceptions of your imagination?
if so who is temporarily deceiving you of their existence?

Are you simply a figment of ones imagination...? LOL

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

If I said, the smoke of the fire went up for a week, what would you conclude of the fire? That there was a fire sending up smoke? Or that the fire, being fully extinguished, continued to send up smoke?

OK . . . I know . . . someone, maybe you, is all poised to say, but the "flames" were out, only the embers were smoking.

OK.

The smoke from combustion went up all week. Does that help? Where there is smoke, there is . . . combustion.

The Smoke of their Torment Ascends forever. Where there is smoke, there is ____________.

A: Torment

The smoke is the smoke of their torment, not just smoke.

I realize there are some who cannot countenance such a straightforward reading, as they will say, but people are not eternal!

What if we were to set aside conclusions, doctrines, things like that, and only look at what the passage itself says? What does it say?

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Much love!

"Forever", "ever and ever" come from the Greek aion or aionios. They have variable meanings. When pertaining to temporal things, things on earth that will pass away, then they also have temporal meanings: an age, ages, generations. As the Gehenna was a temporal burning dump through the ages, so will those who are judged and thrown into the pit.
The scriltures: "Tormented with fire and brimstone" and "They have no rest day or night ...", imply a physical therefore temporal realm on earth or within the earth.
Hell is not Sheol, it is the Lake of Fire. Sheol (Hade) and Death will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed after the Millennial Kingdom when the first earth and heavens are destroyed.
Sheol was divided before Christ into two locations. Those who were ungodly and without faith went to the underworld to await their final punishment. Are they conscious? Yes. If they were'nt, how would that be torment or punishment?.They or section was Paradise, where all the faithful existed, like Abraham. Lazarus being in Abraham's bosum just means close to him, his arm around him as two brothers or a father and son would be walking down a path, in Paradise and talking.
Parables never contain specific names of real people nor describe abstract places that don't exist. No, the rich man was consciuos and in torment in Hades.
"Before I go -- and I shall not return, to the land of darkness and deep shadow, the land of utter gloom as darkness itself ..." Job 10:21-22
How could it be gloomy if you weren't conscious? How would you know it was dark?
"The departed spirits tremble under the waters and their inhabitants. Naked is Sheol before Him and Abaddon has no covering." Job 26:5-6
How could they tremble if they were not conscious? "Beneath the waters" means underneath the crust of the earth in caverns.
Did you ever ponder what "Bottleless Pit" means? Imagine that the center of the earth was a hollow cavern. Theoretically you could not stand, you would fall towards the center of gravity and eventually stop and be suspended in mid air. With a light, you would see ceilings all around you, but no floor, no bottom, a bottomless pit.
Judgment against Tyre:
"then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living. I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more, though you will be sought, you will never be found again, declares the Lord God." Ezek. 26:20-21
Here again the lower parts of the earth are mentioned. The finality of existence is expressed. "...you will be no more" and in the following verse, "you will cease to be forever", comes after the torment. Destruction of those people is God's prerogative. Evidently their final judgment (destruction) comes much sooner than those who await the Great White Throne Judgment.
Jesus said there is one life, one death and then the judgment. How long and how severe is fairly porportionate to however much sin one has stored up.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Angels ARE NOT CALLED DEAD. They REMAIN HOLY WITH God, or they Lose their HOLINESS, and become Separated from God, Sent to A flaming fire pit in Hell Forever.
Luke 20:
[36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

I am always amazed by the fact that so many Christians do not know the difference between “immortality” and “everlasting life”....these are both spoken about in scripture but there is a propensity to interpret them as equal....they are not.

Originally, God alone was “immortal”....which means “the power of an indestructible life”....literally “deathless”. God did not grant immortality to his spirit creation but he did give them everlasting life, which is the ability to sustain their existence forever. He did not grant immortality to his earthly creation either, but gave them the ability to experience life without end.....everlasting life, right here on earth.

For free willed beings, God had to have a means to end their existence if they disobeyed him. In Eden death was never mentioned except as a punishment. There was no “natural” cause of death, because humans were not created to die.....to this day we battle this “enemy” because it was never meant to be part of our existence...we fear it and we fight it.

Immortality was only granted to the elect upon their resurrection; those who had proven their ‘faithfulness to death’ were to inherit the indestructible “crown of life”.
Jesus was not immortal either before his earthly sojourn. If he had been immortal, he could not have paid the ransom to redeem us from the debt left to us by Adam. Immortality was his reward too. If Jesus did not really die, (immortals cannot) then the ransom was not paid, and we are still doomed.

We can see that God’s intelligent creatures were created to enjoy the life He gave them in the realm in which they were designed to live. Each had their assignments and were happy with what they had been created to do.....but free will is a risk....if some abuse it, there has to be a way to carry out the punishment, which is death, not continued life. There are NO immortal souls in the Bible. Hell is simply mankind’s common grave. A general term for the “abode of the dead”...a global cemetery. Jesus will call all the dead from their graves, because they are all still in them. (John 5:28-29)

Angels like humans can die if they rebel, because God has no possible reason for keeping them in existence after his purpose is complete. Death is the opposite of life, so just as angels have a different life to humans and a different body, so they can die a different “death”. But elimination from life is the same end result, as is seen by Jesus reference to the “goats” going to the same place “reserved for the devil and his angels”. “Gehenna” is eternal death.....the place where God can “destroy” “body and soul”, which means to eliminate one from existence altogether. (Matthew 10:28) Even death and hades will go into this place of everlasting destruction. (Revelation 20:13-14)
Why does God need to keep the wicked alive? Does he have some fiendish need to torture them forever? I think he has better things to do quite frankly.

Human men ...... ARE Earthly Terrestrial BODYS....THEY ARE NOT SPIRITS
1 Cor 6:
[20] For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Gal.6
[18] Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

** Human men “HAVE” a spirit within their BODY.
* a Human mans “Natural SPIRIT”, IS his “NATURAL TRUTH IN His Heart”...
(NOT his MIND.......rather IN his HEART).

The “spirit” in man is not his “soul”, yet many people understand those two words to be interchangeable, but they are very different.

The Hebrew word “ruʹach” and the Greek word “pneuʹma”, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to......“that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion.”
These Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) the wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or his holy spirit. (Exodus 35:21; Psalm 104:29; Matthew 12:43; Luke 11:13)

In the same way that we can say a horse is “spirited” we can say the same about humans and perhaps even angels if we take satan’s actions into account. The spirit can be their dominant personality traits.
The scriptures you quoted can then take on a different meaning.
The dominant spirit in humans, when influenced by God’s spirit can feed and maintain their faith. If the dominant spirit is rebellious however, then it will never lead them to obedience.....but it will feed an independent spirit. God has no use for those who cannot be told what to do. Look at the appalling history of Israel.....it’s there for us to learn something about the wonderful results of obeying God....and the disastrous results of disobeying him.

God, (called by whatever Name), IS Spirit, IS Life, IS without beginning, IS without Ending, Can NOT DIE. He IS ( the Giver, Taker, Giver, Taker......OF LIFE.)

ALL PHYSICAL EARTHLY FLESH natural body’s LIFE IS IT’S “BLOOD”.
ALL physical earthly flesh natural body’s LIFE (Blood) SHALL DIE....
God Requires it! (Gen 9:5)

Genesis 9:5...
“Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood. I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother.”

This is related to murder....if a man was to take the life of another, he was to pay with his own.
This is not to say that before the fall, man had any fear of death from any cause. The “tree of life” in the garden was a guarantee that life would not end as long as they remained obedient, death would never come from any “natural” cause because there were none......“sin” was the only cause of death. (Romans 5:19)

What God presented the humans with in Eden was the possibility of never ending life, without ageing, sickness, or any other cause of death or disability. As long as they had access to the tree of life, they would live forever in perfect health. (Genesis 3:22-24) That access was only denied when sin entered their lives....ageing, sickness and death was the result, and it meant that there was now a barrier between them and their Creator. But God did not give up on Adam’s children, and He provided a Mediator for them who would give his life for them and free them from the debt of sin that was inherited by them.

God had a vital role for the humans he put here.....he already had a family in heaven. Originally there was no need for any human to go to heaven....and no need for Christ to ever come to this earth to redeem us. Under influence from the devil, Adam created that need.

ALL souls BELONG TO GOD.

You didn’t quote the whole scripture....Exekiel 18:4 says...

“Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.”

 

[Taken]

I am always amazed by the fact that so many Christians do not know the difference between “immortality” and “everlasting life”....these are both spoken about in scripture but there is a propensity to interpret them as equal....they are not.

Originally, God alone was “immortal”....which means “the power of an indestructible life”....literally “deathless”. God did not grant immortality to his spirit creation but he did give them everlasting life, which is the ability to sustain their existence forever. He did not grant immortality to his earthly creation either, but gave them the ability to experience life without end.....everlasting life, right here on earth.

For free willed beings, God had to have a means to end their existence if they disobeyed him. In Eden death was never mentioned except as a punishment. There was no “natural” cause of death, because humans were not created to die.....to this day we battle this “enemy” because it was never meant to be part of our existence...we fear it and we fight it.

Immortality was only granted to the elect upon their resurrection; those who had proven their ‘faithfulness to death’ were to inherit the indestructible “crown of life”.
Jesus was not immortal either before his earthly sojourn. If he had been immortal, he could not have paid the ransom to redeem us from the debt left to us by Adam. Immortality was his reward too. If Jesus did not really die, (immortals cannot) then the ransom was not paid, and we are still doomed.

We can see that God’s intelligent creatures were created to enjoy the life He gave them in the realm in which they were designed to live. Each had their assignments and were happy with what they had been created to do.....but free will is a risk....if some abuse it, there has to be a way to carry out the punishment, which is death, not continued life. There are NO immortal souls in the Bible. Hell is simply mankind’s common grave. A general term for the “abode of the dead”...a global cemetery. Jesus will call all the dead from their graves, because they are all still in them. (John 5:28-29)

Angels like humans can die if they rebel, because God has no possible reason for keeping them in existence after his purpose is complete. Death is the opposite of life, so just as angels have a different life to humans and a different body, so they can die a different “death”. But elimination from life is the same end result, as is seen by Jesus reference to the “goats” going to the same place “reserved for the devil and his angels”. “Gehenna” is eternal death.....the place where God can “destroy” “body and soul”, which means to eliminate one from existence altogether. (Matthew 10:28) Even death and hades will go into this place of everlasting destruction. (Revelation 20:13-14)
Why does God need to keep the wicked alive? Does he have some fiendish need to torture them forever? I think he has better things to do quite frankly.

Disagree with most of your view.

The “spirit” in man is not his “soul”, yet many people understand those two words to be interchangeable, but they are very different.

I have never said they a “spirit OF man”, And a “soul OF man”, is the same....
Nor that the Spirit OF God “IN” a man is a mans Spirit.

You didn’t quote the whole scripture....Exekiel 18:4 says...

I didn’t need to quote the whole Scripture to make my point.

“Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.”

And? The soul that IS FORGIVEN SHALL LIVE.