The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[post]

There is a difference between recognising false doctrine and diminishing those who hold it.
I think of those men murdering Jesus and how he responded. It puts me to shame.

think instead of the sadducees, who also said there is no resurrection, i.e. that all men cease to exist upon physical death.
they are among those who sought to murder Him -- tho no one takes His life: He Himself lays it down, and He takes it up again


did Christ approve their dialogismos?

 

[quietthinker]

think instead of the sadducees, who also said there is no resurrection, i.e. that all men cease to exist upon physical death.
they are among those who sought to murder Him -- tho no one takes His life: He lays it down, and He takes it up again


did Christ approve them?

I would rather think of Jesus and his self sacrificing, self giving approach. It gives me a wonderful picture of how God is. It gives me hope.
I know the approach of men, even that of my own.....quick to judge, quick to justify self, quick to alienate others, quick to force their hand in some form if it is possible....and for the smallest reasons. This is not something I care to dwell on...it gives me no hope.

 

[post]

I think of those men murdering Jesus and how he responded. It puts me to shame.

this is an interesting question:

when He says forgive them for they do not know what they are doing -- is He talking about the pharisees, sadducees and herodians?
or is He talking about the Romans?
did the teachers of the law know what they were doing? had He given them every sign and proof?

the centurions who actually did the business of His crucifixion became believers. they said, no one has ever died like this man; surely He is the Son of God!

 

[quietthinker]

this is an interesting question:

when He says forgive them for they do not know what they are doing -- is He talking about the pharisees, sadducees and herodians?
or is He talking about the Romans?
did the teachers of the law know what they were doing? had He given them every sign and proof?

the centurions who actually did the business of His crucifixion became believers. they said, no one has ever died like this man; surely He is the Son of God!

I think he was extending forgiveness to and for all and sundry. This blows me away!

 

[post]

I would rather think of Jesus and his self sacrificing, self giving approach. It gives me a wonderful picture of how God is. It gives me hope.
I know the approach of men, even that of my own.....quick to judge, quick to justify self, quick to alienate others, quick to force their hand in some form if it is possible....and for the smallest reasons. This is not something I care to dwell on...it gives me no hope.

look m8, i mean, do you believe what the JW's preach?
is Jesus a mere mortal man who was enlightened then annihilated? was He replaced by an angel on the cross, to deceive the apostles? are only 144k saved, that by their works? to which, according to their accounting, they were all numbered by the 1980's and now there is no hope for anyone?

 

[quietthinker]

look m8, i mean, do you believe what the JW's preach?
is Jesus a mere mortal man who was enlightened then annihilated? was He replaced by an angel on the cross, to deceive the apostles? are only 144k saved, that by their works? to which, according to their accounting, they were all numbered by the 1980's and now there is no hope for anyone?

Concerning myself as to what others think to a third party holds no value.

 

[post]

look m8, i mean, do you believe what the JW's preach?
is Jesus a mere mortal man who was enlightened then annihilated? was He replaced by an angel on the cross, to deceive the apostles? are only 144k saved, that by their works? to which, according to their accounting, they were all numbered by the 1980's and now there is no hope for anyone?

@quietthinker perhaps i am only growing old and 'losing my filter' -- but just as much as i am no longer afraid to tell the ones i love, that i love them, neither am i afraid to tell those who i think are wrong and crazy, that they are wrong and crazy.

i died last year. i don't know how many more years - if even one - God will grant me on this earth. it is not even that i 'lack fear' to be plain with people anymore, but that i have a certain fear of not being plain

i am not against you. i only think you have misjudged this topic.
to be perfectly honest, on this website as much as i have interacted with you and read your musings, i love you, and count you among my favorites
it's because of that that i spend the energy trying to convince you ((and @Taken also)) of what i have also been convinced of, on this topic. crazily, and beautifully, @marks is apparently on the same page as me without us having plotted together at all lol

it's not a matter to separate brothers over. but it's a topic that has a lot of weight, that, even though these days i have very little time to devote to forums, i put a lot of effort into this conversation -- not only on this forum but others in which the very same conversation is going on


for now tho, goodnight. i work early in the morning ♥

imagine we are only having beers and BBQ, and chatting. there is no hard feeling
tomorrow the sun rises and we put our hands side by side to the same plow

 

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker perhaps i am only growing old and 'losing my filter' -- but just as much as i am no longer afraid to tell the ones i love, that i love them, neither am i afraid to tell those who i think are wrong and crazy, that they are wrong and crazy.

i died last year. i don't know how many more years - if even one - God will grant me on this earth. it is not even that i 'lack fear' to be plain with people anymore, but that i have a certain fear of not being plain

i am not against you. i only think you have misjudged this topic.
to be perfectly honest, on this website as much as i have interacted with you and read your musings, i love you, and count you among my favorites
it's because of that that i spend the energy trying to convince you ((and @Taken also)) of what i have also been convinced of, on this topic. crazily, and beautifully, @marks is apparently on the same page as me without us having plotted together at all lol

it's not a matter to separate brothers over. but it's a topic that has a lot of weight, that, even though these days i have very little time to devote to forums, i put a lot of effort into this conversation -- not only on this forum but others in which the very same conversation is going on


for now tho, goodnight. i work early in the morning ♥

imagine we are only having beers and BBQ, and chatting. there is no hard feeling
tomorrow the sun rises and we put our hands side by side to the same plow

thank you for your kind thoughts.

 

[Waiting on him]

If I said, the smoke of the fire went up for a week, what would you conclude of the fire? That there was a fire sending up smoke? Or that the fire, being fully extinguished, continued to send up smoke?

OK . . . I know . . . someone, maybe you, is all poised to say, but the "flames" were out, only the embers were smoking.

OK.

The smoke from combustion went up all week. Does that help? Where there is smoke, there is . . . combustion.

The Smoke of their Torment Ascends forever. Where there is smoke, there is ____________.

A: Torment

The smoke is the smoke of their torment, not just smoke.

I realize there are some who cannot countenance such a straightforward reading, as they will say, but people are not eternal!

What if we were to set aside conclusions, doctrines, things like that, and only look at what the passage itself says? What does it say?

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Much love!

Revelation 20:13-15 KJV
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This lake proceeds out of the throne of God where all will stand before Him.


Daniel 7:10 KJV
[10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
the second death has no power over us.

 

[farouk]

Revelation 20:13-15 KJV
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This lake proceeds out of the throne of God where all will stand before Him.


Daniel 7:10 KJV
[10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
the second death has no power over us.

@Waiting on him Solemn passages...

 

[Waiting on him]

"Death" is the opposite of "life". Why can't humans just be "dead"? Who said they had to go somewhere? If you invent immortal souls, you have to invent places for them to go.
No one wants to die so when the devil told Eve, "you surely will not die" but death was inevitable as God had decreed, he sold them a lie.....you don't really die, but go on living in some other place in spirit form. The Bible does not teach this. It tells us that Jesus and his elect will rule from heaven, but that they will have earthly subjects. Not all Christians are "saints" with "the heavenly calling" . (Hebrews 3:1; 1 Corinthians 1:2)

There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Hebrew scriptures, so no Jew would have believed in some place of conscious existence except the earth where God put us. They had no notion of going to heaven because they believed that God's Kingdom would be here on the earth with God's anointed Messiah ruling over the whole earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)


First of all...there is no such word as "hell" (meaning a place of conscious torment for the wicked after death)
"Hell" is a translation of "hades"..."sheol", "gehenna" and the condition where God restrained the demon angels after the flood (Tartarus). A really bad mistranslation. These are all different words with different meanings.

So "sheol", (the NT Greek equivalent is "hades") according to the OT Hebrew scriptures, was not a place of conscious existence at all. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) It was a place where the dead "slept" in an unconscious state until the resurrection.
Even Jesus confirmed that he believed that the dead were "sleeping". When he was going to raise Lazarus he said...

“Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died". (John 11:11-14)

As for "Abraham's bosom" this is obviously a reference to the parable that Jesus gave concerning 'the rich man and the beggar', but reference to "Abraham's bosom" has nothing to do with people going to heaven....it is a parable among many illustrations where Jesus contrasted the Pharisees, pictured by the rich man, and the beggar, who represented the common people whom the Pharisees despised and neglected. Their deaths were a complete reversal of their status where the "bosom of Abraham" was a position of favor with God, which the Pharisees lost, and which the "lost sheep" pictured by Lazarus gained.
It is comical to use this parable as a proof of heaven and hell. Taken literally this story would be ridiculous.
Are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Can a drop of water on a man's finger quench someone's thirst in a fire?

Oddly enough Lazarus is greek for Eliezer.

 

[Waiting on him]

So you're saying there is fire in the lake of fire?

Fire is used of God to baptize.

 

[n2thelight]

Isn't that what the Bible says?

Much love!

No it does not.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Oddly enough Lazarus is greek for Eliezer.

Is there some significance to that comment? Would you mind elaborating....?

 

[post]

Is there some significance to that comment? Would you mind elaborating....?

the name means "God has helped"

 

[Aunty Jane]

do you believe what the JW's preach?
is Jesus a mere mortal man who was enlightened then annihilated? was He replaced by an angel on the cross, to deceive the apostles? are only 144k saved, that by their works? to which, according to their accounting, they were all numbered by the 1980's and now there is no hope for anyone?

I don’t normally respond to people like you, but I will when there are outright lies told as if it was truth.

Jesus was no mere mortal born of Adam, but he was a mortal human born of God’s spirit. He had to be mortal in order to die his sacrificial death.....immortals cannot die, which is why Jesus cannot be God. He never once claimed equality with his God and Father. (John 17:3)

He was not “annihilated” but resurrected like all Jews expected the dead to be....returned to life by the power of God’s spirit. Jesus and his apostles performed resurrections themselves. Jesus however was the “firstborn from the dead”, meaning that he was not the first human to be resurrected, but the first human to be resurrected to life in the spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)

He was not replaced by an angel on the cross, because Christ was not executed on a cross.....no ancient Bible manuscript says so. The instrument used to put Jesus to death was a “stauros”...a single upright pole. The cross as a religious symbol pre-dates Christianity by centuries.....and has very dubious origins.
The fact that we can believe that Jesus in his pre-human existence was Michael, is because the Bible itself indicates this.....and as we do not believe that Jesus is or was, God incarnate, why can’t he be Michael? Both are said to be the Commander of the angelic forces.

I don’t know where you got the rest of your rubbish from, but none of it is accurate. If you are going to post lies, who can believe a word you say?

 

[quietthinker]

Some interesting questions arise with the sacrifice of Jesus ie, how is this to be understood?

1...Does God require a sacrifice as in the slaying of an innocent before he will forgive?
2...If God is love and love keeps no record of wrongs as attested in 1 Cor. 13 ...in the light of this, how do we understand sacrifice?
3...What is it about shed blood and what is the connection to forgiveness?

There are more questions associated with this but three will do for now....in fact I'll start a seperate thread ....'The sacrifice of Jesus....revisited'...can we call it a discussion?
Anyone have courage to look at these things objectively?

 

[Taken]

Can you provide a single scripture that says that mankind has a separate spiritual part of them that departs from the body at death?

A single scripture? No
Soul departing the body? Yes.

Gen 35:
[16] And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.
[17] And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
[18] And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
[19] And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
[20] And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave unto this day.

Body is dead. Soul departs? Yes
Soul returns to body. Body is alive? Yes

1 Kings 17:
[16] And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.
[17] And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
[18] And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
[19] And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
[20] And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
[21] And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
[22] And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
[23] And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
[24] And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

Where will I find the soul described as a disembodied, conscious, spiritual entity?
And again, show us any scripture where the soul is not inextricably tied to that body to maintain its existence....

Body dead and buried? Yes
Soul speaking, seeing, tasting, touching, hearing? Yes

Luke 16
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 23:
[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Have you ever SEEN a dead body?
Have you ever SEEN a dead body BURIED?
Do living men take dead body’s TO HELL and BURY them?
Are unsaved Departed living souls SENT to HELL and experience torments?
Are saved Departed living souls ESCORTED by Angels to the comfort of Paradise WITH the Lord Jesus?

I gave you STEP BY STEP Scriptures, of God’s Creation of a mans BODY of dust, and Gods’ Making that BODY come into a LIVING man, VIA Gods giving that man a SOUL WITH Gods Breath of Life.
God Himself revealed He Creates a Mans Body from Dust and God Himself Makes His Created Body’s ALIVE with a living soul.
Scripture itself has REVEALED; A body, A soul, A spirit are THREE different things.
The Body is from dust. The soul is from God. The spirit is from God.
What is Created and Made RETURNS from whence it came.

If that is the god you worship.....thankfully that is not the God I serve.

I worship and serve the Heavenly Lord God Almighty, WHO created my body, WHO gave me a soul, WHO gave me a spirit, WHO gave me His TRUTH, WHO saved my soul, WHO quickened my spirit, WHOSE SPIRIT dwells IN me, WHO shall raise my body in glory.
He has Sanctified;
My WHOLE spirit, My WHOLE soul, My WHOLE body....
He knows that. I know that.

Apparently you serve a god, that withholds the TRUTH from you, that you can not understand concerning your body, your soul, your spirit.

1 Thes 5:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

God’s original purpose for mankind is completely lost in the assumption of life after death for a disembodied soul existing in some other place....nowhere does the Bible teach this.

Yes the Bible DOES teach, the body IS from dust, the living soul IN the Body, is from God, the quickened spirit IN the body is from God.

What is FROM dust, is MADE alive, Dies, returns to dust.
What is FROM God, is LIFE, remains LIFE, returns to God.

 

[Taken]

from the narrative of people like @Aunty Jane and @Phoneman777 and @quietthinker and all the nutso JW's creeping around this place.


theorems are proven or disproven at their extrema.

Death of a body....is of two things;
1) physical ... which means physical mortal death
2) spiritual ... which mean separation from God

Flesh physical living body’s CAN be separated from God.
Souls IN a physical living body CAN be separated from God.
TO BE, “not WITH” God, IS separation FROM God.

Physical living men, CAN be “WITH” God, WHEN, they are believing IN God.
Physical living men, CAN...one day believe, BE “WITH” God...and the next day not believe and BE “WITHOUT” God.
* By the same token....on any day a physical man IS believing IN God, God is “WITH” that man. On any day a physical man IS NOT believing IN God, God is NOT “WITH” that man.
^^^ THAT ^^^ happened repeatedly with the Israelites in the OT, as Scripture reveals.


Some men CONFUSE, a living man “WITH” God, and God “WITH” a living man:
TO MEAN the man HAS “RECEIVED SALVATION”........which IS FALSE.

Scripture REVEALS a new better testament OF assurance VIA the Word of Jesus FOR a man TO Receive Salvation Now VIA Christ the Spirit of God to Enter “WITH-IN” the man. Totally Different that “with and without”...ie
“WITH-IN”...Called CONVERTED IN Christ Jesus. Thereafter, nothing whatsoever can that mans Salvation Be removed.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Matt 18:
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

John 10:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


The “unquickened” spirit of a man, is first to know, the man HAS a natural spirit IN him. It is called the mans NATURAL TRUTH IN his HEART.
(Natural men have thoughts in their MINDS and thoughts in their HEARTS.
The MIND thinks in LOGIC. The MIND WEIGHS this knowledge that makes sense against that knowledge that does not make sense to him...and Chooses between this and that of what he will believe.
The HEART’S thoughts are of the mans TRUTH. If your name is “JOHN” for example, Your HEART KNOWS this. That is YOUR Truth. You do not think in your MIND, weighing between this “JOHN” and that hummm, maybe your name is not “JOHN”.)

The quickened (reborn) spirit of man, IS a man WHO, in his heart, says YES, Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

The saved (restored) soul of man, IS a man WHO, in his heart, say YES, Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

THAT ^ man, Asks the Lord God for Forgiveness, FOR NOT having BELIEVED.
THAT ^ man, IS GIVEN Forgiveness, FOR NOT having BELIEVED, BECAUSE,
THAT ^ man, GAVE the Lord God a TRUE Heartful Confession of BELIEF.
THAT ^ man, Willingly Lays down his BODILY LIFE in Spiritual DEATH, With Jesus, ie Crucified with Jesus.
THAT * mans BODY, is accounted Dead, fulfilling the ONE requirement of a BODY MUST DIE, BEFORE it can be qualified to BE RAISED IN a glorious body.
THAT ^ is sanctified, wholly whole....Body, Soul, Spirit....PREPARED for ANY Day, the Lord SHALL raise him UP, soul, spirit, body...

BUT....WHAT about the UNsaved soul of a man? The UNquickened spirit of a man? The UNsaved body of a man?

The body physically dies, is buried rots, remains dead returning to dust, is never raised in glory, is raised up in hell for judgement and destroyed in hell.
The unsaved soul, waits in hell, returns to its dead raised body in hell, (SEES THE JUDGE, Jesus, “oops”, bows Down to Jesus, is judged, per the Book of Life, his name does not appear (blotted out) and the life in the soul ie; (Gods breath, returns to God), and the body, left LIFE-LESS, the soul, left LIFE-LESS, the LIFE-LESS body and soul destroyed.
The unquickened natural spirit, dies with the body, is never Made born again, was killed when the natural body died.

UN-glorified Natural body’s and unsaved souls are destroyed in hell.
(Maybe some people call destroyed to mean annihilation)...IDK
In context, matters.