a non-eschatological Coming?

[Truth7t7]

If you accept that we are bodily resurrected and inherit the Kingdom bodily, I don't understand why this is a matter of life and death for you, and an issue that divides you from other Christians? My point, which you claim to understand, is that the Bible says the *sinful flesh* cannot inherit the Kingdom of God--not that we do not inherit the Kingdom of God *bodily.*

So what is the problem? The perfection of Deity is not the issue, so I don't know why you even bring it up? The importance of our own immortalization/perfection also is not an issue.

So the big problem appears to be beneath the surface, and is a personal issue with you. We certainly don't agree on some of the language and on what the emphasis is with respect to the pertinent Scriptures.

But obviously, we both agree that there is a bodily, physical resurrection and inheritance. It seems you just want to be disagreeable? If so, why would that be? Do you belong to a disagreeable Christian denomination, or are you an isolationist--a hermit Christian?

As per my observation the poster dosent believe that Jesus maintained the glorified, immortal, spiritual body of flesh and bone as scripture teaches below

My observation would be in agreement with (Randy Kluth) that beliefs seen in "Gnosticism" are in play, with the teaching and interpretation given

Jesus Christ was resurrected into a glorified tangible "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, this body entered a room with doors shut, and vanished out of the disciples sight

Jesus Christ ascended to heaven in this tangible, glorified, "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone

1 Corinthians 15:20 & 42-44KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

John 20:26-27KJV
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Luke 24:30-31KJV
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

 

[ewq1938]

Another version reads as follows:
"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him/it."

My own thought about the "consummation" is that it refers not to the destruction of a "him," but rather of the destruction of an "it," namely the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

Which is an alteration of the text, required to present a false interpretation. All false doctrines "adjust" the text to suit the new narrative.

 

[ScottA]

Squirm, squirm.

 

[Truth7t7]

Everything said and taking place before He went to and sat on the mount is pre-Olivet Discourse. Anyone who disagrees is wrong.





Belief that most of the Olivet Discourse is of the past is evidence of PP.





So? You are a partial partial preterist lol....same thing.




PP apologetics. Any idea of a coming at that time is untrue. Christ never said he would come or have anything to do with 70AD.



All figurative meanings. He never came to do those things in the past. He will accomplish those things in the one and only coming that has not yet happened.




You do subscribe to it. The events of the Olivet Discourse are future not past, ALL OF THEM are future. The Great Tribulation has NOT yet started.

Yes the poster is Preterist in his eschatology, and I agree that fulfillment of the AOD, great tribulation, and second coming are future unfulfilled

 

[Truth7t7]

Which is an alteration of the text, required to present a false interpretation. All false doctrines "adjust" the text to suit the new narrative.

I Agree 100%

As Preterist remove the literal 2nd coming seen in Matthew 24:29-30 in symbolic allegory, to falsely prop up a 70AD great tribulation

 

[bbyrd009]

"However, you might spend a bit of time looking for any of the following, “read the Word, teach the Word, study the Word,” etc, anything other than (hear) the Word iow" I just do not know what you were getting at.

you cannot read, study, or teach Word, by extraction

Well I would. Tongues is a gift for communicating the good news and edifying an individual, not for day to day communicating.

well that may be what you believe, but that does not mean that that is true, rn
what is the OT equivalent of "speaking in tongues," iyo?

 

[ScottA]

If you accept that we are bodily resurrected and inherit the Kingdom bodily, I don't understand why this is a matter of life and death for you, and an issue that divides you from other Christians? My point, which you claim to understand, is that the Bible says the *sinful flesh* cannot inherit the Kingdom of God--not that we do not inherit the Kingdom of God *bodily.*

So what is the problem? The perfection of Deity is not the issue, so I don't know why you even bring it up? The importance of our own immortalization/perfection also is not an issue.

So the big problem appears to be beneath the surface, and is a personal issue with you. We certainly don't agree on some of the language and on what the emphasis is with respect to the pertinent Scriptures.

But obviously, we both agree that there is a bodily, physical resurrection and inheritance. It seems you just want to be disagreeable? If so, why would that be? Do you belong to a disagreeable Christian denomination, or are you an isolationist--a hermit Christian?

The matter is "life and death." Thank you for pointing that out! "The flesh returns to the dust", but some here are preaching against this truth from God.

For dust you are, And to dust you shall return. Genesis 3:19

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10
​

And there are also some here, as yourself, who are blurring the lines, favoring the body that we know and experience in the flesh, and therefore downplay the great chasm between the flesh and the spirit, and the eternal fate of each. Indeed, one is life, and the other death. However, there is no actual union of the flesh and the spirit:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6​

And this great error that many prescribe to is grossly different than what the scriptures actually say on so many levels. To the contrary, it is God who "is spirit" that is "perfect", and we like Jesus "go to the Father" and are "to be perfect as He is perfect"--which "is spirit." But "that body" which is born of God and therefore "perfect as He is perfect", is not "what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be." But rather, "As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly"--meaning, born of God whom "is spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:48

But those who prefer the flesh say otherwise.

 

[ScottA]

As per my observation the poster dosent believe that Jesus maintained the glorified, immortal, spiritual body of flesh and bone as scripture teaches below

My observation would be in agreement with (Randy Kluth) that beliefs seen in "Gnosticism" are in play, with the teaching and interpretation given

Jesus Christ was resurrected into a glorified tangible "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, this body entered a room with doors shut, and vanished out of the disciples sight

Jesus Christ ascended to heaven in this tangible, glorified, "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone

1 Corinthians 15:20 & 42-44KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

John 20:26-27KJV
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Luke 24:30-31KJV
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Notice Readers:

There are no scriptures quoted in the above post "of flesh and bone" in heaven.

...'cause there aren't any.

 

[Truth7t7]

Notice Readers:

There are no scriptures quoted in the above post "of flesh and bone" in heaven.

...'cause there aren't any.

Notice Readers:

Jesus Christ maintained a tangible "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, that ate physical food on this earth, and entered a room with doors shut, and could vanish out of human sight

This same body ascended into heaven, no place in scripture does it teach that this glorified, immortal, tangible, body changed prior to the ascension into heaven

Mortal corruptible flesh and blood didn't go up to heaven, incorruptible, immortal, flesh and bone went to heaven, a "Spiritual Body"

Luke 24:30-39KJV
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

 

[ScottA]

Notice Readers:

Jesus Christ maintained a tangible "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, that ate physical food on this earth, and entered a room with doors shut, and could vanish out of human sight

This same body ascended into heaven, no place in scripture does it teach that this glorified, immortal, tangible, body changed prior to the ascension into heaven

Mortal corruptible flesh and blood didn't go up to heaven, incorruptible, immortal, flesh and bone went to heaven, a "Spiritual Body"

Luke 24:30-39KJV
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Still no scripture quotes of flesh and bone in heaven.

Go figure.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty you are in the "Preterist" camp, and I'm fully aware your "Partial"

Marty your claim that the "Literal" second coming of Jesus Christ "Isn't Seen" below is willful disregard in removal of scripture in my opinion, and impossible to have honest dialogue in my opinion

Why Do Preterist Remove The "Literal" Second Coming Seen Below?

Because Preterist cant justify a "Great Tribulation" seen in Matthew 24:21 and the second coming "Literally" taking place as seen in Matthew 24:29-30 "Immediately After The Tribulation" as this second coming is future

Preterist remove the "Literal" second coming seen, with symbolic allegory of a judgement on Jerusalem in 70AD, making way for their claimed 70AD "Great Tribulation" with Roman Armies in destruction of Jerusalem

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Because all of the descriptions in Matthew 24 are signs of judgement

Coming on the clouds
Isaiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt:
See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

The sun being darkened the moon not giving light falling stars

Zephaniah 1:14-16
14 The great day of the Lord is near—
near and coming quickly.
The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;
the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.
15 That day will be a day of wrath—
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of trouble and ruin,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness—
16 a day of trumpet and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the corner towers.

Isaiah 13:9-10
See, the day of the Lord is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

These are signs of judgement which happened before the end of the world and are not described in the verses the posted which were Jesus own words.

Jesus declared that He will come back at the trumpet call with His angels and then judge and reward.

Why do you constantly reply with the same verse over and over why don’t you for once address the verses that I posted? You can’t avoid them they are Jesus words

 

[Truth7t7]

Because all of the descriptions in Matthew 24 are signs of judgement

Coming on the clouds
Isaiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt:
See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

The sun being darkened the moon not giving light falling stars

Zephaniah 1:14-16
14 The great day of the Lord is near—
near and coming quickly.
The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;
the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.
15 That day will be a day of wrath—
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of trouble and ruin,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness—
16 a day of trumpet and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the corner towers.

Isaiah 13:9-10
See, the day of the Lord is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

These are signs of judgement which happened before the end of the world and are not described in the verses the posted which were Jesus own words.

Jesus declared that He will come back at the trumpet call with His angels and then judge and reward.

Why do you constantly reply with the same verse over and over why don’t you for once address the verses that I posted? You can’t avoid them they are Jesus words

Marty you aren't going to remove the "Literal" second coming seen below, yes it "Destroy's" your claims of 70AD fulfillment of the Great Tribulation "Gone"

Matthew 24:15 Daniels Abomination Of Desolation and Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation are "Future" events unfulfilled

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 relates to "Signs" of the "Literal" second coming that you remove

Why Do Preterist Remove The "Literal" Second Coming Seen Below?

Because Preterist cant justify a "Great Tribulation" seen in Matthew 24:21 and the second coming "Literally" taking place as seen in Matthew 24:29-30 "Immediately After The Tribulation" as this second coming is future

Preterist remove the "Literal" second coming seen, with symbolic allegory of a judgement on Jerusalem in 70AD, making way for their claimed 70AD "Great Tribulation" with Roman Armies in destruction of Jerusalem

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty you aren't going to remove the "Literal" second coming seen below, yes it "Destroy's" your claims of 70AD fulfillment of the Great Tribulation "Gone"

The Matthew 24:15 Daniels Abomination Of Desolation and Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation are "Future" events unfulfilled

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 relates to "Signs" of the "Literal" second coming that you remove

Why Do Preterist Remove The "Literal" Second Coming Seen Below?

Because Preterist cant justify a "Great Tribulation" seen in Matthew 24:21 and the second coming "Literally" taking place as seen in Matthew 24:29-30 "Immediately After The Tribulation" as this second coming is future

Preterist remove the "Literal" second coming seen, with symbolic allegory of a judgement on Jerusalem in 70AD, making way for their claimed 70AD "Great Tribulation" with Roman Armies in destruction of Jerusalem

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Once again you just post the same ole thing and ignore addressing what’s been asked of you like many times before you do not debate fairly. I have shown scriptures that back up my claim and you won’t ever address them

For clarification to other readers I have never said that 70 AD ends the great tribulation it didn’t the great tribulation is on the church and it is still happening today 70AD just ended a tribulation on Israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

Once again you just post the same ole thing and ignore addressing what’s been asked of you like many times before you do not debate fairly. I have shown scriptures that back up my claim and you won’t ever address them

For clarification to other readers I have never said that 70 AD ends the great tribulation it didn’t the great tribulation is on the church and it is still happening today 70AD just ended a tribulation on Israel.

Clarification for the readers:

The poster denies that a "Literal" second coming of Jesus Christ is seen below

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Timtofly]

But the other verses which I posted show that the judgement and rewarding happens at the rapture and the second coming which ties into the seventh trumpet did you actually read them?

I do not have an issue with rewards at the Second Coming. The Second Coming is not at the 7th Trumpet. Rewards are not only given at a single point in time. This reward is given to the prophets:

"and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great"

The Second Coming brings the Messiah the Prince to earth for the final harvest. The world has to be cleaned up first. So even if rewards are handed out at the specific point of return, no one can experience the reward of ruling on earth until after the mess is cleaned up. The 7th Trumpet is the celebration at the end of the final harvest.

My point is that you are trying to make the end the beginning. The beginning was the 6th Seal.

The first coming did not start at the Cross. The earthly ministry started at the baptism in the Jordan. The Second Coming starts at the 6th Seal and is completed at the 7th Trumpet. If the Second Coming starts at the last event, how does that work? The first coming did not start at the Cross.

 

[Marty fox]

Clarification for the readers:

The poster denies that a "Literal" second coming of Jesus Christ is seen below

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Why did you have to clarify this I clearly stated it?

And again you refused to answer my questions

 

[Truth7t7]

Why did you have to clarify this I clearly stated it?

And again you refused to answer my questions

Marty Daniels AOD in Matthew 24:15 causes the 3.5 year great tribulation Matthew 24:21 to start, the bad guy that causes Daniels AOD is present on earth to witness the "Consummation" or (The End)

No the great tribulation didnt take place in 70AD nor has it been taking place for the past 1900 years as reformed eschatology teaches, it will be fulfilled in the future, and start when (The Beast) is revealed in Jerusalem

 

[Randy Kluth]

I took koine Greek in bible college and continue to study often.

No Jesus did not condemn that generation to hell. He did condemn them to the judgment of 70Ad which He warned about in the Luke passage of the Olivet Discourse.

I told you it was that generation. it was the judgment of 70AD that fulfilled Luke 21:20-24. Most of Luke is devoted to that particular generation (in time) Matthew 24 is mostly all future.

My argument was that the word for "generation" is understood in context, whether for the Jewish race as a whole or for a specific, limited time, as in a single generation of from 20 to 70 years. The context determines the meaning of "generation," and not the other way around.

As a Greek student, you should know this. I know this even though I'm not much of a Greek student. I only took one class in Greek, and like anybody else can read a lexicon, a concordance, or other reference works.

We agree that Luke 21 centers on the 70 AD destruction. Amazingly, a number of people I discuss this with on the forums, who want to see the Olivet Discourse about Antichrist, completely reject any notion of 70 AD in any of the versions! I'm glad you don't.

But I do think it's a bad idea to try to split the 3 versions into saying very different things. I've studied them all together, and find they are very much in agreement with one another. If Luke 21 referred to 70 AD, then so did Matt 24 and Mar 13. Just my opinion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Everything said and taking place before He went to and sat on the mount is pre-Olivet Discourse. Anyone who disagrees is wrong.

Well, you've obviously made up your mind, and without good reason. All 3 versions of the Discourse begin with the statement of Jesus that the temple was gong to be destroyed. Separating the Discourse into Pre and Main therefore has zero basis for it. But your choice...

Belief that most of the Olivet Discourse is of the past is evidence of PP.

No, it isn't. It's the historical/historicist interpretation. Prophecy about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD is as much about fulfilled historical prophecy as Jeremiah's prophecy about the Babylonian Judgment is fulfilled historical prophecy. And Jeremiah's prophecy about the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BC was *not* Preterism!

So? You are a partial partial preterist lol....same thing.

Laugh all you want. I'm not a PP. We've probably had this conversation before. The Early Church Fathers were not Preterists of any kind, and yet believed the Olivet Discourse was all about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

PP apologetics. Any idea of a coming at that time is untrue. Christ never said he would come or have anything to do with 70AD.

Jesus saw his Coming as eschatological as regards Dan 7 or as regards to the Coming of the Kingdom. But he also saw his Coming as being incomplete during his earthly ministry, during his 1st Coming. Future comings of God were viewed as taking place in history even before the consummation, and Jesus clearly identified with them both in Luke 17 and in Rev 2-3.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, you've obviously made up your mind, and without good reason. All 3 versions of the Discourse begin with the statement of Jesus that the temple was gong to be destroyed.

The Olivet Discourse is only that which he said while on the mount. Nothing else can be added to it. What he said at the temple is not part of the Olivet Discourse.