a non-eschatological Coming?

[Truth7t7]

And in my opinion, your opinion is wrong. I'm promoting neither Preterism nor Reformed Theology. I'm interpreting a very specific passage of Scripture, the Olivet Discourse--not promoting a school of eschatology.



Mat 24 is speaking of the Jewish Punishment that lasts throughout the NT era, beginning in 70 AD and ending at the return of Christ. Part of the prophecy details how Jewish believers suffer under these conditions. And although this Discourse was given while still in the OT era and applicable to Israel, it can also apply in principle to all Christians in all nations.

The same conditions apply when Christian nations fall, like Israel did, and begin to persecute the true saints. Then those apostate nations come under God's judgment, just as Israel did in 70 AD.

Scripture clearly defines the great tribulation as future, a period of 3.5 years or 42 months

Scripture clearly identifies Matthew 24:15, Danile 9:27 in Daniel's Abomination as future, and the bad guy seen will cause the Abomination, and be present on earth to witness the second coming and final judgement "Future"

I have posted the supporting scriptures several times, and will refrain from redundancy

Your claim the great tribulation is 1900+ years and waiting, is comparable to Millennialst claims that the 70th week of Daniel is1900+ years and waiting, both are laughable man made fairy tales

 

[ewq1938]

Apparently your only defense is by trying to link me to PP, rather than address the fact that the Church Fathers held to the same position I do and could not have been termed "Partial Preterists?"

The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter meaning past. It is associated with the belief that most of the events spoken in the Olivet Discourse (and parts of Revelation) are events that occurred in history.

I am not a PP because I believe ALL of the Olivet Discourse is future, and the same for events mentioned in Revelation that take place at the same timeframe.

You are a PP because you believe most of the Olivet Discourse happened in the past. Sure, you different from some PP's because you believe in a future antichrist. That doesn't mean you aren't a PP. You fit the definition of the term. So many people also recognize this as accurate. You are in denial.

 

[ewq1938]

And in my opinion, your opinion is wrong. I'm promoting neither Preterism nor Reformed Theology.

False:

I've been influenced, to some degree, by both Reformed Theology and Preterist Eschatology. But I'm really a Futurist who has adopted bits and pieces of several positions. After all, would any of them have survived if there wasn't any truth in them?

But you're right--my position is not the typical Futurist position. I allow for traditional historical interpretation of Daniel 9, as it pertains to the Olivet Discourse. It is all focused on the literal destruction of the city and the sanctuary in the generation of Messiah.

And I take an almost Preterist position that Christ posed his Coming as something immediate and connected to the 70 AD event. It's just that I would call it the OT concept of the "Lord's Coming," as a judgment event that was historical and not eschatological.

However, I remain a Futurist in believing in the Coming of the Son of Man at the end of the age, just as Dan 7 depicts it. The purpose, then, of Jesus here is to focus on more immediate needs to repent and to preach the Gospel, rather than try to second guess future prophecies and the timing of the end of the world.

You don't take an "almost" Partial Preterist position, it is FULLY a Partial Preterist position on the supposed "coming" in 70AD. You make the same exact arguments that they make about a "coming in judgement" in 70AD. They also deny Christ said one generation would see ALL the events he described and like you, Partial Preterists argue ALL means SOME so they can CHOP the Olivet Discourse to make it a two-parter with most events happening in 70AD and the last couple events in the future. It's bad theology, bad scholarship, bad exegesis, and bad overall handling of the text to change what it actually says.

You were correct when you admitted that you are "not the typical futurist". All Partial Preterists are futurists in a couple beliefs. All Partial Preterists are actually "Mostly preterist, and a small part of futurist".

 

[Randy Kluth]

Scripture clearly defines the great tribulation as future, a period of 3.5 years or 42 months

Again, the Olivet Discourse, as seen in the version in Luke 21, defines the Great Tribulation or the Great Distress as *the punishment of the Jewish People,* as regards their rejection of Christianity. It began in 70 AD and ends at the end of the age. Nothing could be clearer in Scriptures. The idea you reject this is unconscionable, since it is so transparently obvious that it is true.

Yes, this involves future prophecy. But it so very obviously refers to fulfilled historical prophecy, as well, in particular the 70 AD judgment of God against Jerusalem. You either are unable to read or unable to believe--I've quoted it so many times in these forums!

Scripture clearly identifies Matthew 24:15, Danile 9:27 in Daniel's Abomination as future, and the bad guy seen will cause the Abomination, and be present on earth to witness the second coming and final judgement "Future"

This is a different, but related, claim. In my view, the AoD is the 70 AD judgment of Jerusalem by the Roman Army. If so, it is part of the prophecy that was fulfilled in history, and no longer future. It really depends on your view of the AoD.

Regardless, the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People is described as *age-long,* and you will never be able to escape this. It is simply what the Scriptures say. Why would anyone not want to accept it as such on face?

 

[Randy Kluth]

False:

I've been influenced by Preterism yes. Some of their arguments are sound. I reject the theology, or the eschatology. Therefore, I am NOT promoting Preterism, nor am I promoting Reformed Theology. My concern is to interpret a particular passage of Scripture, the Olivet Discourse. Since I borrow various ideas from several eschatological views, you have trouble trying to pin the "Preterist" label on me, and will not be able to do so. I have my own view, and am not promoting a school.

You don't take an "almost" Partial Preterist position, it is FULLY a Partial Preterist position on the supposed "coming" in 70AD.

That's a mistake in judgment. I agree with Mormons that Jesus is the Son of God, but that doesn't mean I "fully" promote Mormonism. Mormons have a school of belief that I *completely* disagree with. Preterism also has a theological system that I *completely* disagree with. My alignment with them on a single issue no more makes me a Preterist than your belief in God makes you a Satanist.

 

[Truth7t7]

In my view, the AoD is the 70 AD judgment of Jerusalem by the Roman Army. If so, it is part of the prophecy that was fulfilled in history, and no longer future. It really depends on your view of the AoD.

Regardless, the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People is described as *age-long,* and you will never be able to escape this. It is simply what the Scriptures say. Why would anyone not want to accept it as such on face?

Your belief of 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 and Daniel's AOD puts you in the Partial Preterist camp alone, dont claim you're not Preterist, you are!

Matthew 24:15 Dan8els AOD, Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation, Matthew 24:29-30 The Second Coming are all futureevents, and haven't taken place in history, no the great tribulation didnt start in 70AD

You refuse to acknowledge my claim in bold red below, its Randy who's in denial of presented truth, Daniel's AOD is "Future"!

Daniel's Abomination of Desolation seen in
Matthew 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 is a future event and hasn't taken place anytime in history, and it hasn't been taking place for the past 1900 years

When this Abomination takes place, the great tribulation starts, and the human man that starts it, will be present on earth to witness the second coming and his final judgement in destruction by the Lord at the "Consummation" (The End)

To claim "The Great Tribulation" represents history over the past 1900 years and counting isnt found to be supported by scripture

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is a different, but related, claim. In my view, the AoD is the 70 AD judgment of Jerusalem by the Roman Army. If so, it is part of the prophecy that was fulfilled in history, and no longer future. It really depends on your view of the AoD.

Regardless, the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People is described as *age-long,* and you will never be able to escape this. It is simply what the Scriptures say. Why would anyone not want to accept it as such on face?

As scripture clearly teaches below, its a "Future Generation" that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and second coming of Jesus Christ

(This Generation Shall Not Pass) "Future"

1.) What is near, even at the doors,
(The Lords Return) "Future"

2.) What is the day and hour no man knows,(The Lords Return) "Future"

Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 24:33-36KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your belief of 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 and Daniel's AOD puts you in the Partial Preterist camp alone, dont claim you're not Preterist, you are!

No, I've explained repeatedly what PP is, and I'm not PP. I hold a position in common with PP, just as you hold a position in common with Satanism--you believe in God. But you're not a Satanist, are you?

If you want a conversation on a particular passage, you sure aren't going to get a good one while trying this tactic, trying to pin a label on me that doesn't fit. It's obviously an attempt at harassment. Get back with me when you want to examine the Scriptures themselves, because you're obviously trying to sidestep my arguments.

 

[Waiting on him]

Then the 70th week is verses 15-31, they knew they would not be here when the Gospel went unto all the world.

Paul disagrees.


Colossians 1:23 KJV
[23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[ewq1938]

I agree with Mormons that Jesus is the Son of God, but that doesn't mean I "fully" promote Mormonism. Mormons have a school of belief that I *completely* disagree with. Preterism also has a theological system that I *completely* disagree with. My alignment with them on a single issue no more makes me a Preterist than your belief in God makes you a Satanist.

You have more in common with Partial Preterism than with Futurism. Your Jesus/Mormon example was terrible.

 

[ewq1938]

I hold a position in common with PP

This fallacy is called "minimalism" You make it sound like you only agree with one small thing Partial Preterists believe in but the truth is you hold almost all of their positions and only one position they may not hold. (a future AC). And that is fairly common in Partial Preterists anyways. Some believe the AC was in the past, some believe he is future. Doesn't change that they are still Partial Preterist.

 

[Truth7t7]

I've been influenced by Preterism yes. Some of their arguments are sound. I reject the theology, or the eschatology. Therefore, I am NOT promoting Preterism, nor am I promoting Reformed Theology. My concern is to interpret a particular passage of Scripture, the Olivet Discourse. Since I borrow various ideas from several eschatological views, you have trouble trying to pin the "Preterist" label on me, and will not be able to do so. I have my own view, and am not promoting a school.



That's a mistake in judgment. I agree with Mormons that Jesus is the Son of God, but that doesn't mean I "fully" promote Mormonism. Mormons have a school of belief that I *completely* disagree with. Preterism also has a theological system that I *completely* disagree with. My alignment with them on a single issue no more makes me a Preterist than your belief in God makes you a Satanist.

Yes you Promote Preterism, you believe and teach Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD was fulfilled in 70AD, stop claiming otherwise

Daniel's AOD is future, and will take place when the (antichrist/the beast) is revealed in Jerusalem, causing the abomination and desolation, and he will be present on this earth to the "Consummation" (The End)

 

[Waiting on him]

Matthew 24:3 KJV
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

It’s very clear when Jesus references the world He’s referring to Apostate Israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24:3 KJV
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

It’s very clear when Jesus references the world He’s referring to Apostate Israel.

Wrong, Matthew 24:3 is representing the end of this literal world

Yes when Jesus Christ returns, the end of this world takes place

Matthew 13:38-39KJV
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, I've explained repeatedly what PP is, and I'm not PP. I hold a position in common with PP, just as you hold a position in common with Satanism--you believe in God. But you're not a Satanist, are you?

If you want a conversation on a particular passage, you sure aren't going to get a good one while trying this tactic, trying to pin a label on me that doesn't fit. It's obviously an attempt at harassment. Get back with me when you want to examine the Scriptures themselves, because you're obviously trying to sidestep my arguments.

If you believe and one of the 3 items below are fulfilled your (Partial Preterist)

If you believe all 3 items are fulfilled your (Full Preterist)

If you believe all are future unfulfilled your (Futurist)

Your (Partial Preterist) as you believe and teach Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD was fulfilled in 70AD, this is about the 3rd time I have explained this to you, as you continue to deny your Preterist in your eschatology

1. Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD
2. Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation
3. Matthew 24:29-30 The Second Coming

 

[Waiting on him]

Wrong, Matthew 24:3 is representing the end of this literal world

Yes when Jesus Christ returns, the end of this world takes place

Matthew 13:38-39KJV
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Lol Truther, it’s just as Randy has tried to tell you. The Angels indeed reaped. The Angles were the overseers of the church just as it says in revelation. They warned the members to flee Judea, just as Jesus told them to in MATTHEW 24

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Paul disagrees.


Colossians 1:23 KJV
[23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

No he doesn't, you just do not stop and think things threw. Paul FOREKNOWS what is going to eventually happen because Jesus stated it, just like he stated the temple would be destroyed. So the whole world will her the Gospel, then Jesus will call the Church home.

But if you think Paul, Peter and all the Disciples did not understand he wasn't returning in their life times, then why did the disciples ask about John, whom he evidentially told would live and die a natural death? The preached imminence but also understood they had told get the Gospel unto China, India, and the North countries where the Scythians (Russia) were at before the Gospel could be preached unto all the world.

Two problems modern day people have, firstly they don't take into account the old ways of writing and the modern day translations of another language. In soccer, some managers get in trouble because their broken English might say something totally different from what he means.

Common sense tells us that Paul had not preached to the whole world else Jesus would have showed up at that time, like Matthew 24:14 says, else Jesus lied. It is just common sense.

 

[Waiting on him]

No he doesn't, you just do not stop and think things threw. Paul FOREKNOWS what is going to eventually happen because Jesus stated it, just like he stated the temple would be destroyed. So the whole world will her the Gospel, then Jesus will call the Church home.

But if you think Paul, Peter and all the Disciples did not understand he wasn't returning in their life times, then why did the disciples ask about John, whom he evidentially told would live and die a natural death? The preached imminence but also understood they had told get the Gospel unto China, India, and the North countries where the Scythians (Russia) were at before the Gospel could be preached unto all the world.

Two problems modern day people have, firstly they don't take into account the old ways of writing and the modern day translations of another language. In soccer, some managers get in trouble because their broken English might say something totally different from what he means.

Common sense tells us that Paul had not preached to the whole world else Jesus would have showed up at that time, like Matthew 24:14 says, else Jesus lied. It is just common sense.

Ok, I’ll try again. This time I’ll write slower.


John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

SO, in the above scripture what is Jesus referring to as the world?
The gospel went into all the world. I don’t see how this is so hard to understand.

 

[Waiting on him]

I have another question.


Revelation 2:1 KJV
[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Why is Jesus telling John to weite these epistles to Angels. The Truther should have no problem answering this one seeing he has all the truth.

 

[Truth7t7]

Lol Truther, it’s just as Randy has tried to tell you. The Angels indeed reaped. The Angles were the overseers of the church just as it says in revelation. They warned the members to flee Judea, just as Jesus told them to in MATTHEW 24

Yes Matthew 24:29-31 shows the second coming in the Lords return and the harvesting of believers, a parallel teaching of the wheat takes "End Of The World"

Yes the final judgement is seen in Matthew 24:50-51 below (The End)

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:50-51KJV
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.