The Genesis Flood

[Duckybill]

Who said they believed it?

The Bible is filled with Truth not lies Aspen.

 

[Rach1370]

I do find it interesting that many Christians smirk at the history of the Book Of Mormon because it is so inaccurate, based on what we know about history - Native Americans are genetically similar to Asians, not Israelites; Native Americans never built the structures described in the BOM; there were no lions and tigers in the Americas, etc. However, we totally throw out the same historical record when it comes to the Flood account.

We wonder how Mormons can accept something so obviously false, based on what we know to be true today, but our blinders are securely in place when it comes to the Flood myth, Job, Jonah, etc. BTW, Mormon apologists discount DNA testing just like conservative Christians discount carbon dating......

We believe it because we believe all things are possible with God. The moment we start asking ourselves if what we are told in scripture is 'just a story indicating a greater truth' then we open the door for people and ourselves to start questioning the biggest 'story' in the Bible...the death and resurrection of Jesus. And that event must be true, or else we are all fools and our hope is in vain. This is why so many here argue so strongly. To question one story's validity, we must then question them all. We must, if we believe to our very souls that Christ died and rose again for us, believe in the very truth of what we are told within scripture. Now, it is surely true that the bible is full of events that are foreshadowing bigger events, that most stories are the roots for something more important to come. But that does not necessarily mean that the 'beginning' event is not actual and important in it's own right. You say Aspen, that were the flood to be true that it holds too many things that are just impossible. But is a virgin birth also not impossible in our own world? The resurrection of the dead? All of Jesus' miracles? They were performed to prove Jesus was God...and with God, all things are possible!

As far as carbon dating goes, well, as I said before, I have seen scientific articles showing that what carbon dating would put at millions of years old, was in fact made by volcanic activity in a matter of days. That is why I question it, that and scientific principles developed by man cannot possibly be as accurate as God!!

 

[aspen]

We believe it because we believe all things are possible with God.

Cool. I have an easier time believing the story really happened if it was a total miracle that has no evidence left behind. My problem is when Creation scientists try to make up scientific evidence for the event. It is ridiculous. It is as if, all scientific evidence that contradicts the Flood account is false, yet anything that points to a scientifically provable event is celebrated. If conservative Christians really believe that all scripture is literally true; isn't all scientific evidence legitimate or not?

You know, Mormons believe all things are possible with God too, but their doctrine is still false.

The moment we start asking ourselves if what we are told in scripture is 'just a story indicating a greater truth' then we open the door for people and ourselves to start questioning the biggest 'story' in the Bible...the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Why? We already believe that Song of Solomon was not a real event. There are lots of important stories in the Bible that did not really happen. Ducky has created another false dichotomy around this idea; either all events recorded in the Bible really happened or they are lies! Absurd! Ancient people have used stories to convey truth since the dawn of time. Stories can be inspired whether they really happened or not. The fact is, failing to believe the true nature of God, as a Trinity, and that Jesus died and rose again for our sins places a person outside Christianity; failure to believe in a literal flood event does not.

This is why so many here argue so strongly. To question one story's validity, we must then question them all. We must, if we believe to our very souls that Christ died and rose again for us, believe in the very truth of what we are told within scripture. Now, it is surely true that the bible is full of events that are foreshadowing bigger events, that most stories are the roots for something more important to come. But that does not necessarily mean that the 'beginning' event is not actual and important in it's own right. You say Aspen, that were the flood to be true that it holds too many things that are just impossible. But is a virgin birth also not impossible in our own world? The resurrection of the dead? All of Jesus' miracles? They were performed to prove Jesus was God...and with God, all things are possible!

We all have to make choices in life and in our spiritual lives; it may seem easier (less cognitive dissonance) to take the stance of 'all or nothing' when it comes to the Bible, however, it is not required. I believe a black and white mindset is as far from holy as we can get - it is our attempt at justice (a direct consequence of the Fall), rather than relying on God's law and justice. Believing involves the heart and mind, not just a teeth clenching, breathe holding, fingers-in ears, exercise to keep the facts from wiping away some cognitive framework we have constructed in our minds about doctrine. The fact is, we have no idea how Christian history really unfolded and to claim that the Bible provides an exact rendering of events is arrogant. We are called to believe and practice love by relying on Christ's example of ultimate love and the power of the Holy Spirit to sanctify our hearts - everything else is laid down in order to reveal Christ, not to be a security blanket. Relying on the Bible for mental security is running the risk of making your understanding of the Bible an idol.

As far as carbon dating goes, well, as I said before, I have seen scientific articles showing that what carbon dating would put at millions of years old, was in fact made by volcanic activity in a matter of days. That is why I question it, that and scientific principles developed by man cannot possibly be as accurate as God!!

The Bible is a record of Divine/human interaction from the POV of the humans who wrote it down. Every time we read the Bible, we interpret it using our own experience and education, which is guided by the HS; however, we are still prisoners of our own understanding. Someday, we will have an accurate accounting from God, but until than we are left with man's interpretation of events and the words of God. This is not a bad thing! God decided to use humans to present His words to other humans. We simply need to realize that God loves us and will not throw us into the fire for an honest, human understanding of His word. Like I've said many times.....if I am wrong, well, I am wrong - I am not arrogant enough to claim that I am the final word on God's word - not even close! It is funny that Ducky needs to get me to 'admit' that I am only providing my opinion, NOT THE WORD OF GOD! in every interaction we have - and seems to believe that a great victory has been achieved every time I do....ha! I have no problem admitting that all I can do is comment on truth - that is all any of us can do! Only God can actually generate truth. I am looking forward to a lively conversation and a lot of laughter when we all sit down to dinner in Heaven, together.

 

[HammerStone]

To return to the topic at hand, I belive and testify to a literal flood event.

I do recognize that the literal flood event may have been localized to the known world of that era (and I'd point to the Hebrew word used - Cain also said he was banished from the face of [all] the earth). However, I have no issues with saying that the flood was indeed worldwide.

Either way, God did it.

If you so choose to break down the account to a myth, so be it, but the rammifications should well be understood. If the Genesis account is a creation myth, then that opens up mythic proportions for anything else in the Bible. (Such as the character of Jesus.)

 

[Foreigner]

To return to the topic at hand, I belive and testify to a literal flood event.

I do recognize that the literal flood event may have been localized to the known world of that era (and I'd point to the Hebrew word used - Cain also said he was banished from the face of [all] the earth). However, I have no issues with saying that the flood was indeed worldwide.

Either way, God did it.

If you so choose to break down the account to a myth, so be it, but the rammifications should well be understood. If the Genesis account is a creation myth, then that opens up mythic proportions for anything else in the Bible. (Such as the character of Jesus.)

-- Spot on correct.
We as Christians are not qualified to say that 'this' in the Bible really happened, but 'that' didn't.
And if we share that question of accuracy with non-believers, they will question why ANY of it should then be believed.

 

[Duckybill]

I see no reason to believe it was not 'worldwide'.

Genesis 7:17-23 (ESV)
[sup]17 [/sup]The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. [sup]18 [/sup]The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the face of the waters. [sup]19 [/sup]And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. [sup]20 [/sup]The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep. [sup]21 [/sup]And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. [sup]22 [/sup]Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. [sup]23 [/sup]He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark.

2 Peter 2:5 (ESV)
[sup]5 [/sup]if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

 

[Duckybill]

If you so choose to break down the account to a myth, so be it, but the rammifications should well be understood. If the Genesis account is a creation myth, then that opens up mythic proportions for anything else in the Bible. (Such as the character of Jesus.)

Exactly! I'll take the literal every time unless it is undeniably not, such as when Jesus said to cut off body parts.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

One of the reasons I take a literal view on the Old Testament events is because of the geneology of Jesus as described in Luke. It is one of the proofs for Jesus' lineage that goes all the way back to Adam. When we accept Jesus, we are declared sons of God when and are introduced legally (as well as spiritually) into his family and gain those rights as a son. So it was between Jesus and his legal earthly father Joseph, whose linegage dates back to God. It is important and beneficial when we realize how God preserved that line through to Joseph and how Jesus was the son of God by blood, by spirit, and his line included his kingship, prophetship, priestliness (made those words up).

 

[Rach1370]

If you so choose to break down the account to a myth, so be it, but the rammifications should well be understood. If the Genesis account is a creation myth, then that opens up mythic proportions for anything else in the Bible. (Such as the character of Jesus.)

This is my very concern! The thing is, the Bible tends to make it obvious when it is telling a 'story' that has a deeper and important meaning. When Nathan came to David to confront him on his sin with Bathsheba he used a story. Jesus told parables all throughout His ministry. Why would the bible make it clear these are obvious stories, but then not specify it for the flood if it too was just a story portraying a morality issue?
There is more proof, I believe, to assume it was a real event. And if the only argument is that it seems unlikely or impossible, well, I believe we are forgetting who we are dealing with!!

 

[aspen]

Well, I've said everything I have to say about this topic. I do not have a need to change anyone's mind - just trying to be clear about where I am coming from. I understand why many of you reason that a belief in a literal flood is necessary in order to be sure about the rest of the Bible; I simply disagree. I've experienced Christ - never experienced the Flood; who knows maybe God will change my mind someday - it is up to Him.

Interesting discussion.

 

[Selene]

Well, I've said everything I have to say about this topic. I do not have a need to change anyone's mind - just trying to be clear about where I am coming from. I understand why many of you reason that a belief in a literal flood is necessary in order to be sure about the rest of the Bible; I simply disagree. I've experienced Christ - never experienced the Flood; who knows maybe God will change my mind someday - it is up to Him.

Interesting discussion.

I agree. It was not a literal flood. It was actually a local flood. There is archaeological evidence showing a Great Flood in Mesopotamia. The sacred author who wrote about the flood witnessed a huge local flood. In his eyes, this local flood appeared as though it was the entire world that was flooded. In those days, people were ignorant of their world around them. They had no idea how huge the earth really was. In fact, even Christopher Columbus had no idea how huge the world was. When he planned to sail around the world to reach Asia, he acutally thought that the earth was very small and that it would only take him a few months to sail from Spain to Asia. When he landed in the West Indies, he thought he had successfully reached Asia. Today, we know that is false. Columbus never reached Asia. He discovered what is termed "the New World" at that time, which consisted of North and South America.

In the same way, ancient people did not know how huge their world was. They had no idea about Antarctica, North America, or even South America. They only knew the world that they knew, which is the Middle East and parts of Asia. So, when an unusal flood occurred in Mesopotamia, to the eyes of people of that time, it appeared as the entire world was flooded, when in truth it was only the region of Mesopotamia. Below is a weblink about that flood, which is interesting:

http://ncse.com/cej/8/2/flood-mesopotamian-archaeological-evidence

 

[aspen]

I agree. It was not a literal flood. It was actually a local flood. There is archaeological evidence showing a Great Flood in Mesopotamia. The sacred author who wrote about the flood witnessed a huge local flood. In his eyes, this local flood appeared as though it was the entire world that was flooded. In those days, people were ignorant of their world around them. They had no idea how huge the earth really was. In fact, even Christopher Columbus had no idea how huge the world was. When he planned to sail around the world to reach Asia, he acutally thought that the earth was very small and that it would only take him a few months to sail from Spain to Asia. When he landed in the West Indies, he thought he had successfully reached Asia. Today, we know that is false. Columbus never reached Asia. He discovered what is termed "the New World" at that time, which consisted of North and South America.

In the same way, ancient people did not know how huge their world was. They had no idea about Antarctica, North America, or even South America. They only knew the world that they knew, which is the Middle East and parts of Asia. So, when an unusal flood occurred in Mesopotamia, to the eyes of people of that time, it appeared as the entire world was flooded, when in truth it was only the region of Mesopotamia. Below is a weblink about that flood, which is interesting:

http://ncse.com/cej/...ogical-evidence

Nice to hear from you again, Selene!

 

[Selene]

Nice to hear from you again, Selene!

Hi Aspen,

My island is under tropical storm right now. There's a tropical storm in our area, but it's not going to hit us. The storm is passing close to us, so we've been getting a lot of wind and rain. We've also been getting a lot of thunder and lightning. By tomorrow, the tropical storm should be heading out further away from us so hopefully we can get some nice weather when the weekend comes.

 

[Duckybill]

I agree. It was not a literal flood. It was actually a local flood.

Genesis 7:17-24 (ESV)
[sup]17 [/sup]The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. [sup]18 [/sup]The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the face of the waters. [sup]19 [/sup]And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. [sup]20 [/sup]The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep. [sup]21 [/sup]And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. [sup]22 [/sup]Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. [sup]23 [/sup]He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark. [sup]24 [/sup]And the waters prevailed on the earth 150 days.

 

[aspen]

Interesting variations on Flood Myths:

http://www.creation-answers.com/forty.htm


Various flood stories from around the world can also be recited in evidence that the ancients did once track time in 9th parts. Though most of these flood stories seem preposterous, and though many of these tales tend to exceed an interpretation can be considered to be real or literal, it remains to be somewhat significant that a time track of "nine" or "nines" is rather frequently referenced. The following instances of time cycles pertaining to the number "nine" or "nines" are subsequently listed from various of the several stories that pertain to a cataclysmic flood:

• Ancient Greek literature relates that "Zeus sent a flood to destroy the men of the Bronze Age. Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest... after floating in the chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus, the God of Escape." [Apollodorus, 1.7.2]
• Plato wrote that a number of "great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years" since Athens and Atlantis were preeminent". ["Timaeus" 22, "Critias" 111-112.]
• According to Lithuanian legend water and wind once destroyed the Earth in 20 days and 20 nights. Those who survived the flood did jump 9 times and 9 other couples rose up. From the 9 couples that rose, the Lithuanian tribes originated. [Gaster, Myth, Legend, and Custom in the Old Testament, 1969.]
• According to Burmese legend, a flood came and a brother and sister took refuge in a boat. In this boat were 9 birds and 9 staves. In correspondence with each day of the flood, a bird and a stave were let loose from the boat. On the 9th day, the 9th bird was heard to sing and the 9th stave did strike the bottom. After the flood was over, the sister gave birth. Unfortunately, a witch cut the baby into pieces where 9 roads met. Along these 9 roads, the nations of the Earth sprang from the slain child's parts. [ibid.]
• In a Transylvanian legend, a certain man promised he would return in 9 days. On the 9th day, the man returned and announced the coming of a cataclysmic flood. This great flood lasted for the duration of a whole year. [Frazer, Folk-Lore in the Old Testament, 1919.]
• Indians of the Sacramento Region relate that the chief of all the nations did once overlook great flood waters for the duration of 9 sleeps. He ultimately grew invincable after the 9 sleeps were past. [ibid.]
• Certain Chinese writings relate that 2 children lived inside a gourd for 99 days. A flood eventually lifted the gourd to the top of a mountain. After the flood was past, the sky then held 9 Suns and 7 Moons. Using a dragon's bow, the children shot down all but a single Sun and Moon. The 2 children then became married and--from their 12 offspring--the various races on Earth originated.[Miller, South of the Clouds: Tales from Yunnan, 1994.]

Of related significance is that numerous (other) stories about the event of a cataclysmic flood have been passed down among many societies (from all around the world).

 

[Duckybill]

And of course that gives you opportunity to declare the Bible account to be myth. Where does the Bible call it a myth?

 

[aspen]

I like the Chinese one the best - you can make a gourd into anything! Just think if they had duct tape - they could have traveled to the moon.

 

[Selene]

Interesting variations on Flood Myths:

http://www.creation-...s.com/forty.htm


[font="Helvetica][size="2"]Various flood stories from around the world can also be recited in evidence that the ancients did once track time in 9th parts. Though most of these flood stories seem preposterous, and though many of these tales tend to exceed an interpretation can be considered to be real or literal, it remains to be somewhat significant that a time track of "nine" or "nines" is rather frequently referenced. The following instances of time cycles pertaining to the number "nine" or "nines" are subsequently listed from various of the several stories that pertain to a cataclysmic flood:[/size][/font]

[font="Helvetica][size="2"][/size][/font]

• Ancient Greek literature relates that "Zeus sent a flood to destroy the men of the Bronze Age. Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest... after floating in the chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus, the God of Escape." [Apollodorus, 1.7.2]
• Plato wrote that a number of "great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years" since Athens and Atlantis were preeminent". ["Timaeus" 22, "Critias" 111-112.]
• According to Lithuanian legend water and wind once destroyed the Earth in 20 days and 20 nights. Those who survived the flood did jump 9 times and 9 other couples rose up. From the 9 couples that rose, the Lithuanian tribes originated. [Gaster, Myth, Legend, and Custom in the Old Testament, 1969.]
• According to Burmese legend, a flood came and a brother and sister took refuge in a boat. In this boat were 9 birds and 9 staves. In correspondence with each day of the flood, a bird and a stave were let loose from the boat. On the 9th day, the 9th bird was heard to sing and the 9th stave did strike the bottom. After the flood was over, the sister gave birth. Unfortunately, a witch cut the baby into pieces where 9 roads met. Along these 9 roads, the nations of the Earth sprang from the slain child's parts. [ibid.]
• In a Transylvanian legend, a certain man promised he would return in 9 days. On the 9th day, the man returned and announced the coming of a cataclysmic flood. This great flood lasted for the duration of a whole year. [Frazer, Folk-Lore in the Old Testament, 1919.]
• Indians of the Sacramento Region relate that the chief of all the nations did once overlook great flood waters for the duration of 9 sleeps. He ultimately grew invincable after the 9 sleeps were past. [ibid.]
• Certain Chinese writings relate that 2 children lived inside a gourd for 99 days. A flood eventually lifted the gourd to the top of a mountain. After the flood was past, the sky then held 9 Suns and 7 Moons. Using a dragon's bow, the children shot down all but a single Sun and Moon. The 2 children then became married and--from their 12 offspring--the various races on Earth originated.[Miller, South of the Clouds: Tales from Yunnan, 1994.]

[font="Helvetica][size="2"]Of related significance is that numerous (other) stories about the event of a cataclysmic flood have been passed down among many societies (from all around the world).[/size][/font]

[font="Helvetica][size="2"]
[/size][/font]

You would find most flood myths in cultures along coastal areas. Interestingly, my island does not have any flood myth, but one of the outer islands in the Pacific do.

 

[aspen]

You would find most flood myths in cultures along coastal areas. Interestingly, my island does not have any flood myth, but one of the outer islands in the Pacific do.

That is interesting! I always think of Haiti and the Caribbean islands every time a hurricane hits them and it makes sense that they would have flood myths.

 

[Selene]

Genesis 7:17-24 (ESV)
[sup]17 [/sup]The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. [sup]18 [/sup]The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the face of the waters. [sup]19 [/sup]And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. [sup]20 [/sup]The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep. [sup]21 [/sup]And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. [sup]22 [/sup]Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. [sup]23 [/sup]He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark. [sup]24 [/sup]And the waters prevailed on the earth 150 days.

The writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that the Holy Spirit stole their human knowledge. These writers lived thousands of years before Christ was born. They were ancient people who know very little about their world. When Christopher Columbus wrote in his journal that he reached Asia, does this mean that he actually reached Asia? We already know that he never got there. It is the same with all people who lived in the ancient world. The message that God told the sacred author is not to be ignored. That message is simple: the wicked will be punished and those who are not wicked will be saved. That was the message that God wanted to convey through that historical local flood. In the Old Testament, God revealed Himself through Jewish history. In the New Testament, God revealed Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ. We would look at Jewish history to find God's message in it. And in Jewish history, the ancient Jews did not know that North and South America existed.