When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[dad]

Nope. You already... have a spirit body, INSIDE your flesh body. At flesh death it merely steps out of your flesh body. That because it is a body type of the heavenly dimension. Your spirit is NOT made up of flesh material matter. Even the Jews old tradition about the soul believed that our soul was made up of material matter and dies with our flesh, only to be resurrected with the flesh in the casket, when their idea is false. No, our soul with spirit does not die... with our flesh body (Matthew 10:28). It continues back to God in the heavenly, just as Apostle Paul showed in 2 Corinthians 5. Our soul with spirit cannot be separated, but our soul with spirit can... be separated from our flesh.

Jesus had a flesh and bone and spirit body. We will too. Hence the Rapture and raising the dead.

Eternal Life through Christ only happens IF we are 'born again'. Then at His coming, our 'soul' puts on "immorality". But all will have their "spiritual body" exposed on the day of His coming, including the wicked. The spiritual body does not mean automatic Salvation, because even the wicked are resurrection to the resurrection body. And what did Paul teach the kind of body the resurrection is? A "spiritual body".

In the Rapture it is a matter of having our old body raised to a new eternal one. One just Like Jesus has.

 

[dad]

Those are NOT examples of a flesh body. Those are examples of a "spiritual body".

Can the "spiritual body" appear and feel like flesh? Evidently. Can it eat man's food? Evidently.

Since you have no idea whatsoever, and since Jesus flat out stated that He had flesh and bone, we know that is what He had. Our new complete body is also spiritual and can do all sorts of things that are impossible in this temporary flesh body today. Stop trying to say Jesus is a liar and that He did not have what He said He did.

 

[dad]

You must not think the New Jerusalem can descend back down, just like God removed Paradise from earth? Did God just teleport the Tree of life, or the whole Garden?

The bible says New Jerusalem is coming down to earth. The bible does not say the garden of Eden was scooped up to space.

 

[ewq1938]

In the Rapture it is a matter of having our old body raised to a new eternal one.

Not quite. It is written there is a change to the old body before it is caught up to the clouds. The change is that the mortal body changes into an immortal body.

 

[dad]

Not quite. It is written there is a change to the old body before it is caught up to the clouds. The change is that the mortal body changes into an immortal body.

So the dead bodies of believers are raised. That means that the spirits of the people who were dead already were with Him in heaven. Yet their bodies are raised. Raised to incorruptible eternal bodies. Same thing with the believers who are in their bodies but still alive.The difference being that their spirits are still in their bodies, so they both are raised to the body that is eternal and like that of Jesus. In the case of the dead in Christ, their spirit was with Him already.
The question also arises, how could the dead in Christ be in heaven with Him, and yet also in their old bodies? No. I believe that they are in the air having come with Jesus to get their new bodies. The end result is a body that is like Jesus. Physical,Spiritual,Eternal.

 

[ewq1938]

So the dead bodies of believers are raised.

No, the new body is already in heaven waiting for them.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.
Paul knew he wasn't returning to his old body.

He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.

 

[dad]

No, the new body is already in heaven waiting for them.

So when we are caught up into the air, you think that Jesus is still in heaven rather than here but only seen by believers?

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Yes we desire our eternal bodies and being with Him. So when those who died in the last say, 2000 years have their bodies raised up, their earthly tabernacle was dissolved long ago! Why raise up their bodies from the dead also?

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.
Paul knew he wasn't returning to his old body.

No. He is not coming back to his dead old body for sure, and of course neither is anyone else. So Paul is in heaven, right? His spirit is in heaven. So why raise his old body at the Rapture? I can think of only one reason. So that we have our new eternal physical and spiritual body like He has! Otherwise, why drag up the atoms and molecules and bones and etc for nothing? As Job said,

ob 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God

We see Him and are with Him when we die, but our flesh is not. At the Rapture that changes and our bodies are raised up into the air and changed. The eternal body is also flesh as was Jesus' body.

He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.

No. There is a need for both! Spirit and flesh together, like Jesus. That is why the body is raised also. We really are going to live forever. Not as just a ghost either.

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Yes we will be clothed with a body! Not just a spirit. Both together.

 

[ScottA]

He rules the nations. When He comes, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of God. That is not now. Obviously. Don't call others confused when you grope in the dark so openly.

Enough then.

Since you have "obviously" repeatedly claimed not to see Christ since He has come into His glory in both heaven and earth, which is the definition of spiritual blindness--I leave you to it.

As for me, it is my witness that just as the world viewed the cross not as victory but as failure, that victory not appearing to them even "now", is just as He said, "the world sees me no more." He reigns. I see Him.

 

[Timtofly]

Those are NOT examples of a flesh body. Those are examples of a "spiritual body".

Can the "spiritual body" appear and feel like flesh? Evidently. Can it eat man's food? Evidently.

Both are physical bodies. The spirit part is the robe of white. The spirit of man goes on the outside of the physical body. It is light. That is what Jesus showed on the mount of Transfiguration. Our spirit has been in the presence of God since conception. You are using the old Jewish carnal thought process of a material spirit inside the material body..

You have to always have a physical body since the resurrection of Jesus at the Cross. You can no longer taste death. The church currently in Paradise is still waiting in permanent incorruptible physical bodies, to put on the spirit, at the Second Coming. The part about being glorified is putting on the robe of white. Only then will all be restored as the full image of God. The full image as a son of God is soul, body, and spirit. Right now on earth, we posters are only a soul in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Those in Paradise are a soul in their new permanent incorruptible physical bodies. At the Second Coming all will have the spirit restored. The spirit is the image of God the Father. God is light. The soul who we are represents the Holy Spirit. The "software" that powers the physical body. And in Christ, we are given the Holy Spirit to be obedient to God, and not Adam's flesh. The closest we come to tasting death is every minute of our life in this dead body.

The physical part represents the Word and Jesus, the Word made flesh. A person has to be physically born first. Then spiritually born from above. But a resurrection changes the soul from Adam's corruptible flesh to a permanent incorruptible physical body. The first birth and first resurrection are always physical. The adoption into God's family gives us full access to the Holy Spirit. Only at the Second Coming will the entire church be glorified as one, and fully restored as sons of God in the full image of God. That is at the 6th Seal, not the battle of Armageddon. The church is glorified at the 6th Seal, not Armageddon. In fact the 5th Seal is when the church as an entire group puts on the robe of white, and is glorified. The 6th Seal is only about the part Jesus Christ as Prince descends to the mount of Olives, and earth is changed according to 2 Peter 3, and the works on earth are burned up.

Then with the angels and the 144k the final harvest starts with the Trumpets and ends with the Thunders. The 144k are the so called tribulation saints, who were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened. All other redeemed in the final harvest are the sheep and the wheat, and they are not the church, but live on the earth for 1,000 years and rule over their offspring. They are given permanent incorruptible physical bodies, but not glorified, because they would have left with the church at the Second Coming instead of still standing around on the earth after the Second Coming. The only humans alive after the 7th Trumpet are the redeemed on earth and the glorified church in Paradise. All else are dead waiting for the GWT.

Humanity will still multiply on the earth in the kingdom of Jesus the Prince for 1,000 years, then Jesus will hand back the kingdom to God.

 

[Timtofly]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit.

You cannot juxtapose the two. Flesh is not spirit, nor is spirit of flesh.

Thus what your interpretation on this is, is a fleshy carnal doctrine from man's traditions, and not staying with God's Word as written.

No one has their spirit until the Second Coming, that spirit cannot reside in Adam's dead flesh. You are not being replaced with a spiritual body. You are changing from a dead corruptible body, to a permanent incorruptible body. They both are physical. One is of sin, the other of God.

Of course they are different, but not that one is a spiritual non physical. One is corruptible flesh, the other incorruptible flesh. But the physical is still physical. Physical does not mean from earth, and spiritual means from heaven. It is one single creation, without a difference. You will always have a physical body made by God. There is no escaping that point. The difference is that physical body does not come from Adam's corruptible flesh, but directly from God.

Paul said all the redeemed will be changed. That means from Adam's corruptible flesh to God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Not from a physical to a spiritual. The change is from dead flesh to an incorruptible physical body. That is the first resurrection. The first resurrection will always and only be to a permanent incorruptible physical body. Even those alive and remain at the Second Coming will have a first resurrection to change from Adam's dead flesh to God's permanent incorruptible physical body given to us directly from God. That is what Paul declares in all his writings.

You can call it "spiritual" all you want, but it is still a physical body. It is not from Adam, but from God.

 

[Timtofly]

No one can come back from the lake of fire but if there is no spiritual resurrection how would you explain the verse below?

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God

People rise from bed every morning. They are not resurrected. In Christ we are spiritually seated with God. Those in Paradise are physically seated with God. In fact they serve day and night in the temple of God.

You and I are not physically with God, but only spiritually with God. Since Paul was writing to those alive on earth, and not to those already enjoying Paradise, it is only a spiritual connection in Christ. Until the soul leaves Adam's dead flesh, then the physical resurrection, and one is physically with Christ in Paradise.

On earth it is the spiritual birth. In Paradise it is the physical resurrection. That is why Paul said to guard against sin, to not hinder that spiritual connection. Some even think one can loose that spiritual birth. The day of redemption is when we shed this flesh for the permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Once physically in Paradise, one can no longer be made subject to the Second Death.

On the other side, once one becomes reprobate in their mind, soul, there is no going back to that point of redemption. I would say they were never spiritually born the second time as well. They kept rejecting the Holy Spirit until there was no more an ability to accept the Holy Spirit and being born from above.

 

[dad]

Enough then.

Since you have "obviously" repeatedly claimed not to see Christ since He has come into His glory in both heaven and earth, which is the definition of spiritual blindness--I leave you to it.

Sorry I missed seeing that. Was He hiding in the dessert?

As for me, it is my witness that just as the world viewed the cross not as victory but as failure, that victory not appearing to them even "now", is just as He said, "the world sees me no more." He reigns. I see Him.

We see Him work. We know Him. Our eyes do not yet see Him. Not sure how you got such crossed wires.

 

[Timtofly]

The garden of Eden was not moved. It was guarded.

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Perhaps not at that moment. I think Cain and Abel were still there, so of course it was not moved at that point. It was not on earth after the Flood. That is for sure.

 

[dad]

Perhaps not at that moment. I think Cain and Abel were still there, so of course it was not moved at that point. It was not on earth after the Flood. That is for sure.

You know this...how?

 

[ScottA]

Sorry I missed seeing that. Was He hiding in the dessert?


We see Him work. We know Him. Our eyes do not yet see Him. Not sure how you got such crossed wires.

You are looking at all of this in the way the world sees, and as He said, "The world sees me no more"...and therefore you do not see. And you are foolishly being smug about it to your own downfall-- Of course you don't see!

Nonetheless, the other "we" do see Him...just as He also said.

So...it is you who has your wires crossed with that of the world. Your terms.

 

[Timtofly]

The bible says New Jerusalem is coming down to earth. The bible does not say the garden of Eden was scooped up to space.

Yet the tree of life is found in the same location, and that location is currently called Paradise which means Garden. Your interpretation regardless, cannot change the facts.

We will not be scooped into space either. Who claims God scooped up the Garden? The Garden ascended like everything else that moves from the earth into the firmament.

 

[dad]

You are looking at all of this in the way the world sees, and as He said, "The world sees me no more"...you do not see. And you are foolishly being smug about it to your own downfall-- Of course you don't see!

Nonetheless, the other "we" do see Him...just as He also said.

So...it is you who has your wires crossed with that of the world. Your terms.

Are you suggesting you visit Jesus, hug Him and see Him now? Don't beat around the bush.

 

[dad]

Yet the tree of life is found in the same location, and that location is currently called Paradise which means Garden. Your interpretation regardless, cannot change the facts.

You seem to be saying that because there is also the tree of Life in New Jerusalem, therefore that has to be the garden of Eden somehow moved there?

We will not be scooped into space either. Who claims God scooped up the Garden?

New Jerusalem in not on earth. So if you are saying the garden went there, or to heaven, or (insert wherever else you care to make up) I guess it had to move somehow.

The Garden ascended like everything else that moves from the earth into the firmament.

OK, so like a rocket, it took off from this planet then, according to you. Chapter and verse?

 

[ewq1938]

The Garden ascended like everything else that moves from the earth into the firmament.

That doesn't come from the bible.

 

[ScottA]

Are you suggesting you visit Jesus, hug Him and see Him now? Don't beat around the bush.

I am suggesting nothing, but quoting scripture, not in part, but in spirit and in full.

It was Jesus who said God is spirit, and how all who are born of the spirit exist and are unseen, that He goes to the Father and returns "quickly", that these are "the things that must shortly come to pass", that if we hear Him knocking and open to Him He and the Father whom is spirit come into them. But "if eye has not seen, or heart imagined the things that await", why do you question these great volumes of information the sum of what He only touched on because men could not bear it--when He promised to lead us into "all truth", that truth which I have been speaking of?

Did you only want that part that does not offend you, as one who cannot bear it--even now after all this time?