Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

[michaelvpardo]

Are you serious? Do you know how many names in the Bible incorporate the divine name? Look up the "J" names in any English translation....many of them incorporate Jehovah's name.

Je·hoshʹa·phat.....Jehovah is Judge
Jeshʹua.....Jehovah is salvation
Jer·e·miʹah....Jehovah loosens (the womb), or, Jehovah exalts
Je·hoʹram.....Jehovah is high, exalted
Je·honʹa·than....Jehovah has given
Je·honʹa·dab....Jehovah is liberal, noble, or has impelled
Je·hoiʹa·kim.....Jehovah raises up

Are all of these people Jehovah too?

That is horribly flawed reasoning if that's all you have.

The expression "Hallelujah" is the English translation of the Hebrew "Praise Jah"......"Jah" being the shortened form of the divine name.

Please give us scripture that is a direct statement from God or his Son that they are both equally "God" with the holy spirit....if your trinity is true there should be no shortage....
I challenge anyone to provide even one clear admission....and without a lot of scriptural gymnastics in order to make it true....

Jehovah which is the English version of Yah havah is an extended version of Yah, which is also given in scripture. Yah havah is more prevalent because it is the covenant name given Moses, but thank you for displaying your incredible ignorance of God and the scriptures.
Come to Christ. Repent of sin and turn to our God and He will give you His Spirit, wisdom and understanding for the asking.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Isaiah says no such thing, it is so called "refornmed" theology, that makes God the AUTHOR of sin!

IF, God created evil, then WHY would He punish us for doing what He Created?

God didn't create evil and that isn't reformed theology, but God granted men choice. If He didn't we couldn't be said to be created in His image, because God clearly has choice.

The problem with choice is that we then become capable of either doing God's will which is doing that which is good, or doing our own will in opposition to God's will (which is evil.)

God didn't create evil, but in giving us choice gave us the option of choosing evil. Adam did and the world was cursed.

Now sin reigns in our flesh and all our choice is influenced by our master, sin. Christ is the solution to evil choice, the redemption from sin. His Spirit is the power to do God's will and still as a matter of choice, but freed from the dominion of sin.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The part where this argument goes completely off the rails is the part where you say the elect doesn't have a choice but to respond. That is not how it works at all. The elect's minds are opened to be able to understand what they're being told, but they still have to decide whether or not they will act on that knowledge. God didn't create robots.

Your argument supposes that Jesus' disciples had no choice but to follow Him once they met Him, but that isn't what happened. They followed Him because at least most of them knew He was a prophet that was sent by God. When the followers in Jhn 6 walked away from Jesus, did Jesus twist their arm and make them stay put against their will? No, He simply asked the 12 original disciples if they wanted to leave as well.
The Jews' understanding of the Bible is certainly wrong, but not because they refuse to subscribe to the illogical doctrines about God being a trinity.
The people who use Deut. 6:4 as "proof" that the trinity is biblical overlook 2 crucial points:

1. A more accurate translation has Moses saying "alone", not "one".

2. The context of the entire chapter is clearly about Israel being commanded to listen to God's voice instead of the dictates of false prophets. That's where verse 4 comes in when the Israelites were reminded that the God that rescued them from Egypt is the only true God. There is literally nothing about that verse or chapter that supports the trinity Quote]

.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
John 15:16
Go back to the father of lies for a more believable one

 

[michaelvpardo]

No, I understand why we would rejoice at the crushing of our enemies. It's a very human thing to do, even for Jesus's people. However, Jesus also said,

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

and Ezekiel writes

“As surely as I live,” declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live."

I find the mixed messages confusing.

The mixed messaging is confusing, but believing the gospel is actually a command, not a suggestion. Rejecting the gospel is rejecting God's salvation. Condemnation and destruction are man's willful choice in rejecting God's love.

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you 2 Peter 3:14-15
Scripture teaches that God is grieved by our violence and suffers our sin as an act of grace. Humanity was judged by the flood and Noah was spared as an act of grace.

And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. Genesis 6:6
I don't have children, but I know parents are deeply grieved by rebellion in their children and suffer for their love of them despite sin.

19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.” Mark 9:19
Jesus suffered the faithless and longed to return to heaven.
God's enemies aren't those who sin unintentionally or are enslaved by sin, but those who delight in their rebellion against God and recruit men to do the same. This might not be obvious in scripture because the offer of peace with God, the offer of salvation is given to all, but the hatred of God is expressed in rebellion. Those who cling to that hatred and reject His love are worthy of wrath (and wrath is called His unusual act because He takes no pleasure in it, as opposed to men who rejoice in vengeance. )

 

[quietthinker]

Yes. That is what I am suggesting. The question is, does this mean God is evil? I don't think so. Paul the apostle answered this objection in Romans 9, where he reminds his readers, and us also, that we are created, divine artifacts, i.e. things made.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory . . . Romans 9:19-23

Who are you, O man?
The answer is, I am a created thing. I am the thing molded.

Does not the potter have the right?
The answer is yes, the potter has the right of creation. That is, he has the right to make whatever he wants to make and he has the right to treat his creation according to the purpose he set for it.

In other words, God is not evil to create evil people. If God should make an evil man, who does despicable evil during his lifetime, God is not evil to punish that man for the evil he committed, even though he created him for that purpose. Why, because God has the right of creation. He can make anyone for any purpose.

Paul is answering the question, "Is God unjust for rewarding Jacob before the boy was born and apart from whether the boy did good or bad?" The implied answer is this, Because God is the creator of all that exists, he is not unjust when he assigns punishment or reward according to his divine purpose. He knew his purpose for Jacob even before he brought Jacob into existence. And God treated Jacob according to Jacob's raison d'etre.

In his explanation, Paul employs an analogy; God is like a potter who creates pots, making each pot for a unique purpose. If a potter needs a pot for flowers, he or she makes a vase. If the potter needs a place to urinate, he makes another pot for that purpose. Likewise, if God needs a person on whom to have mercy, he makes a person for that purpose. If he needs a person on whom to show his judgment, he makes a person for that purpose. And from the standpoint of being the creator of everything, God is not unjust to create both kinds.

I can not disagree with you more on this C&Z. This position reinforces the very claims that Satan makes against God.
The assumption is that God makes trash, then has the right to discard it when the scripture clearly tells us that what God created was good.......and the morning stars sang for joy.

It totally undercuts the mind boggling incarnation and attempts to bring to nought God's unparalleled love.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jehovah which is the English version of Yah havah is an extended version of Yah, which is also given in scripture. Yah havah is more prevalent because it is the covenant name given Moses, but thank you for displaying your incredible ignorance of God and the scriptures.

Funny, you sound like you know what you are talking about, but I have my suspicions....
If you were genuine in your response you would have provided what I have asked of any trinitarian here....give us the scripture that is a direct statement confirming that Jesus is equally part of a “godhead” with the holy spirit......just one direct statement is all it will take....no tap dancing...no implied inference...just a clear unequivocal declaration that Jesus is Yahweh along with the holy spirit.

Do you have one?

Come to Christ. Repent of sin and turn to our God and He will give you His Spirit, wisdom and understanding for the asking.

I have already done that....which is why I can in full confidence reject your trinity and just about all other errors taught in Christendom....like the existence of an immortal soul that flits off to heaven, or that God punishes people in a fiery hell forever without parole, or opportunity for repentance.....so unless you can prove that what you believe is true from God’s word....perhaps you might like to apply that last part of your response to yourself.....
There is still time.....but judging by the state of the world, not for much longer.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Funny, you sound like you know what you are talking about, but I have my suspicions....
If you were genuine in your response you would have provided what I have asked of any trinitarian here....give us the scripture that is a direct statement confirming that Jesus is equally part of a “godhead” with the holy spirit......just one direct statement is all it will take....no tap dancing...no implied inference...just a clear unequivocal declaration that Jesus is Yahweh along with the holy spirit.

Do you have one?


I have already done that....which is why I can in full confidence reject your trinity and just about all other errors taught in Christendom....like the existence of an immortal soul that flits off to heaven, or that God punishes people in a fiery hell forever without parole, or opportunity for repentance.....so unless you can prove that what you believe is true from God’s word....perhaps you might like to apply that last part of your response to yourself.....
There is still time.....but judging by the state of the world, not for much longer.

Sure, but I've posted it before only to get a lot of reinterpretation of ancient tongues as though anyone here were 6000 years old and really understood both the context and the world view of those that wrote the text.
However, I'll post it again.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
So, who was manifested in the flesh?
Who was justified in the Spirit?
Who was seen by angels (and no doubt for the very first time unless they can see what is invisible)?
Who was preached among the gentiles, believed (by some) in the world, and received up in glory?

I realize that this verse only identifies Jesus as God and doesn't define the Holy Spirit as God, but no verse in scripture stands alone and your incessant error is cutting the scripture apart as though it isn't inspired by One God.
Are there many Holy Spirits or is there just One?

Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.” Revelation 15:4
I'm not some fool like the Jehovah’s Witnesses or others that deny the Lord, and I know that the word holy is applied to many things, but if Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth, Comforter, paraclete, teacher,etc., all these names which apply to the God of scripture, aren't equating Him to God, who then do you imagine He is?

Why did the risen Christ order His disciples to go out making disciples of men and baptizing them in the name of all three called One God? Why would God's own Son, risen from the dead and in His glorified body refer to the Holy Spirit when God alone is Holy and why is Jesus referred to in multiple passages as the Holy one?

Why not just baptize in the name of Yah?

Why is the great confession "Jesus is Lord?"

Why should I even have to prove anything to an antichrist?

You do know that salvation is by receiving Christ by faith, don't you?
How is faith by proof?

Are you baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? That's His command. And if you were, are you baptized into what you don't believe? That would just make you another lying hypocrite and place you under the curse
Found in chapter 5 of the book of Zechariah.
Which of the cults do you serve?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sure, but I've posted it before only to get a lot of reinterpretation of ancient tongues as though anyone here were 6000 years old and really understood both the context and the world view of those that wrote the text.
However, I'll post it again.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
So, who was manifested in the flesh?
Who was justified in the Spirit?
Who was seen by angels (and no doubt for the very first time unless they can see what is invisible)?
Who was preached among the gentiles, believed (by some) in the world, and received up in glory?

I realize that this verse only identifies Jesus as God and doesn't define the Holy Spirit as God, but no verse in scripture stands alone and your incessant error is cutting the scripture apart as though it isn't inspired by One God.
Are there many Holy Spirits or is there just One?

Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.” Revelation 15:4
I'm not some fool like the Jehovah’s Witnesses or others that deny the Lord, and I know that the word holy is applied to many things, but if Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth, Comforter, paraclete, teacher,etc., all these names which apply to the God of scripture, aren't equating Him to God, who then do you imagine He is?

Why did the risen Christ order His disciples to go out making disciples of men and baptizing them in the name of all three called One God? Why would God's own Son, risen from the dead and in His glorified body refer to the Holy Spirit when God alone is Holy and why is Jesus referred to in multiple passages as the Holy one?

Why not just baptize in the name of Yah?

Why is the great confession "Jesus is Lord?"

Why should I even have to prove anything to an antichrist?

You do know that salvation is by receiving Christ by faith, don't you?
How is faith by proof?

Are you baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? That's His command. And if you were, are you baptized into what you don't believe? That would just make you another lying hypocrite and place you under the curse
Found in chapter 5 of the book of Zechariah.
Which of the cults do you serve?

And my reply to you would be.....be careful how you judge....it just may come back to bite you....
Which cult do you serve?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can not disagree with you more on this C&Z. This position reinforces the very claims that Satan makes against God.
The assumption is that God makes trash, then has the right to discard it when the scripture clearly tells us that what God created was good.......and the morning stars sang for joy.

It totally undercuts the mind boggling incarnation and attempts to bring to nought God's unparalleled love.

Your image of trash conveys an idea that I don't support and isn't an implication of what I said. Remember, God creates everyone with a purpose. He doesn't create "trash", which has lost all useful purpose and reason for existing. I'm not suggesting that God's rewards and punishments are arbitrary. On the contrary, as brother Paul says, God has a purpose for each and every one of us. Remember also, Paul believes that God is going to treat each person "according to their deeds." (Romans 2:6) Paul is not a fatalist and neither am I. What we do matters.

It's just that, occasionally, God reveals himself to be the transcendent creator of all things, which not only consists of this physical world but also history itself. God is the creator of all that exists. And one way to make sense of this fact is to look for an example of "transcendence", taken from everyday life. Can we find an example of transcendence in our reality? Yes.

Those who write novels are transcendent over the story they tell. I think of J.R.R. Tolkien in this regard because I believe his stories ring true and it is a good story. Tolkien wrote "The Lord of the Rings" which not only contained good characters like Frodo and Sam, it also contained evil characters like Saruman and Sauron. Tolkien's book is a good story because every character get's what they deserve in the end.

Reality, real life, is like a story that God is telling. He speaks things into existence. ("And God said, 'Let there be light.'") And God brings people into existence to serve the needs of his story. And God's "story" is a good one because every person get's what they deserve in the end. Each person in God's story has a purpose and God doesn't make trash.

A critical review of history and the written word of God reveal the fact that God is telling the story of redemption, which includes concepts such as forgiveness, love, care, grace, mercy, and etc. Accordingly, to serve that story, God speaks sinners into existence. On some, he intends to demonstrate his justice, on others he intends to demonstrate his mercy. The trajectory of each life will come to its proper target.

Finally, the sole purpose for Biblical revelations concerning God's transcendent nature is to assure the readers that nothing can thwart God or keep him from fulfilling his promises. Everything that God promises he will fulfill. There is no other god to stop him. Romans 8

 

[quietthinker]

Your image of trash conveys an idea that I don't support and isn't an implication of what I said. Remember, God creates everyone with a purpose. He doesn't create "trash", which has lost all useful purpose and reason for existing. I'm not suggesting that God's rewards and punishments are arbitrary. On the contrary, as brother Paul says, God has a purpose for each and every one of us. Remember also, Paul believes that God is going to treat each person "according to their deeds." (Romans 2:6) Paul is not a fatalist and neither am I. What we do matters.

It's just that, occasionally, God reveals himself to be the transcendent creator of all things, which not only consists of this physical world but also history itself. God is the creator of all that exists. And one way to make sense of this fact is to look for an example of "transcendence", taken from everyday life. Can we find an example of transcendence in our reality? Yes.

Those who write novels are transcendent over the story they tell. I think of J.R.R. Tolkien in this regard because I believe his stories ring true and it is a good story. Tolkien wrote "The Lord of the Rings" which not only contained good characters like Frodo and Sam, it also contained evil characters like Saruman and Sauron. Tolkien's book is a good story because every character get's what they deserve in the end.

Reality, real life, is like a story that God is telling. He speaks things into existence. ("And God said, 'Let there be light.'") And God brings people into existence to serve the needs of his story. And God's "story" is a good one because every person get's what they deserve in the end. Each person in God's story has a purpose and God doesn't make trash.

A critical review of history and the written word of God reveal the fact that God is telling the story of redemption, which includes concepts such as forgiveness, love, care, grace, mercy, and etc. Accordingly, to serve that story, God speaks sinners into existence. On some, he intends to demonstrate his justice, on others he intends to demonstrate his mercy. The trajectory of each life will come to its proper target.

Finally, the sole purpose for Biblical revelations concerning God's transcendent nature is to assure the readers that nothing can thwart God or keep him from fulfilling his promises. Everything that God promises he will fulfill. There is no other god to stop him. Romans 8

Justice and mercy are not opposed .....God's justice is liberation of the oppressed. All are oppressed by dysfunction no fault of their own!
Man's justice is payback ie, you get what you deserve. God does not operate like that....Calvary tells us how God operates.
Men insist on making God in their image to their own hurt.

 

[michaelvpardo]

And my reply to you would be.....be careful how you judge....it just may come back to bite you....
Which cult do you serve?

The Way of Christ. The head is this invisible Spirit who is called God and became flesh so that He could complete the Revelation of Himself and redeem mankind from Sin, then indwells those who believe Him for the asking. He also inspired this book that we call the Bible and interprets it for those who see Him in His Son, the man called Jesus of Nazareth, the Logos or word made flesh. You can know Him too, just believe that the Father is in the Son and submit to the Lord of lords, asking Him to guide you in His righteousness.
There's no other way.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Justice and mercy are not opposed .....God's justice is liberation of the oppressed. All are oppressed by dysfunction no fault of their own!
Man's justice is payback ie, you get what you deserve. God does not operate like that....Calvary tells us how God operates.
Men insist on making God in their image to their own hurt.

There are at least two common objections to the doctrine of God's sovereignty and the election of the saints: 1) freedom of the will, and 2) righteousness. Some would argue that it is unjust or not righteous to arbitrarily choose some to save and some to damn before they were even born and had done neither good nor bad.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There are at least two common objections to the doctrine of God's sovereignty and the election of the saints: 1) freedom of the will, and 2) righteousness. Some would argue that it is unjust or not righteous to arbitrarily choose some to save and some to damn before they were even born and had done neither good nor bad.

You raise some important questions.....
So how can we answer them?
First of all, who are the “saints” and who “elects” them?

The “saints” have a special “calling”, described by Paul...
Hebrews 3:1....
“Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge—Jesus.”
This is an interesting scripture because not all are “called” to be “saints”. These “chosen ones” have a “calling” to a future role in God’s kingdom that those not “called” will not have. But since it is God who chooses them, who can deny that he has valid reasons for their choosing that we know nothing about?

At 1 Corinthians 1:1-2, Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians, identifies two groups of Christians....
“Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will, and Sosʹthe·nes our brother, 2 to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”.

There are those who are identified as “holy ones” and those who are “together with” these ones. They are identified as “those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”. Each group serves the same Lord Jesus, but one group are called to a specific type of service and the others are not. But each group have the merits of Christ’s sacrifice applied to them...they are both saved by the blood of Christ. The ones not chosen have no feelings of envy because these are chosen by God to form the best governmental system that the human race has ever had....God’s Kingdom. The prospect of being the subjects of this perfect and incorruptible government fills them with joy. Jesus taught us to pray for it to “come” so that God’s will could “be done on earth as it is in heaven”. (Matthew 6:9-10)

So, the purpose of those called to heaven and what will they do there is plainly stated.....
Revelation 20:6 reveals..
“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.“
We can see the role that they will play.......they will be “kings and priests” ruling with Christ in his kingdom for the 1,000 years it will take to bring about the restoration of God’s original purpose for mankind on this earth. This also reveals that these will be resurrected “first”.

The second group who do not receive the heavenly calling will continue to serve Christ’s interests on earth by fulfilling another important role. Once the Kingdom is established, its rule on earth (facilitated by the elimination of all failed human rulership under influence from the devil) will see a general resurrection of the dead take place at Christ’s command (John 5:28-29) This will mean life for some who died faithful, but a period of judgment for others.....those who had never had opportunity to hear the “good news” will be given that opportunity, and the earthly survivors of the coming “end” to this world system, will have the privilege of teaching them about God and the sacrifice of his Christ which has redeemed them even from death, giving them that choice to become a worshipper of the true God.....or not. The 1,000 year reign of the Kingdom will accomplish all of that as well as restoring paradise conditions for the faithful.

So, one group are chosen as the government that will rule those who remain on earth. This is, after all where God put us in the first place.....it was never intended as a training ground for heaven, but to be man’s permanent home. Revelation 21:2-4 describes the outcome of the kingdom’s rulership...the complete restoration of God’s original purpose for humankind.

What role does “God’s Sovereignty” and “free will” play in this.....God allows us to choose to serve him as our only Sovereign, or to choose the devil’s rulership and accept his influence in our lives. Each of us will be drawn to either one or the other through justification, which is the only divider between right and wrong for them. “Feeling right” isn’t always “being right”.

“Righteousness” is a word we don’t use in everyday speech but it is mentioned often in the scriptures.
So, what is “righteousness”? It is the acceptance and practice of the moral standards set out in God’s word. We are not at liberty to change those standards, because God doesn’t. So, no matter what time period we live in, God’s standards never change. The human interpretation of them however, can alter greatly.
Even to go back 100 years we see an almost complete reversal of all of the moral standards that were once accepted as the norm....this is not just observed among unbelievers but, especially today also among those who purport to be believers.

When this happened in the first century and it was discerned by the elders that someone was practicing a sinful course, that one was to be counseled and given opportunity to repent. If there was no repentance, then that individual was to be removed from fellowship with the faithful. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)
Today, when pastors rely on the numbers in their congregations for their stipend, that is a difficult thing to police, but the counsel was that the elders were to judge within the congregation and God would judge those outside of it. Imagine if the pastors, ministers and priests carried out that practice today....! How many people would remain? This is the stark reality.

If sin is tolerated or even condoned, then Christ is not in that church. If there are teachings that are adopted from outside of the scriptures, or the scriptures are twisted to accommodate false teachings....then Christ is not in that church. Jesus will say to the “many” when he comes as judge of all....”I never knew you” because these ones have not obeyed his teachings, fearing a loss of income or unpopularity for enforcing the Bible’s counsel. Those who lead are doubly accountable.

This, I believe is the Bible’s view, not just my own....

 

[quietthinker]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?
Never was there a duller or slower crowd!

 

[n2thelight]

That is a very different story to the one told in the scriptures....where did these ideas come from?

There is no "before Adam" as far as humankind are concerned. There were intelligent creatures in existence before the Universe was created but these were not material creatures. Angels are spirit beings, created to be in attendance upon their Creator in a completely different realm....with a completely different definition of life. Spirit creatures do not depend on external things to keep them alive like humans do. From the Bible we see that they were in existence first. Only God can cause their death, whereas humans can die in a multitude of ways.
Our lives are sustained by what is contained within the earthly realm....air, food and water are vital to our existence and supplied in abundance by our Creator. These are not needed by angels....and yet the Genesis account assures us that there was no natural cause of death for humans, as long as they obeyed their Creator, death would never happen.

The reason why "man was made flesh", from the scriptural point of view, is that God (for his own reasons) decided to bring material creation into existence. With one almighty act of power he brought the whole Universe into existence. (Genesis 1:1) The "beginning" back then was the beginning of the material Universe. God then prepared one planet for habitation and filled it with living creatures. Lastly he created man as a caretaker for all that he had made on this earth. This was God's instructions for them....

Genesis 1:27-28...
"And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
So that was their assignment.

The name Lucifer occurs only once in the Scriptures and only in some versions of the Bible. For example, the King James Version renders Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” Lucifer means "shining one"...."morning star'...bringer of the dawn".
So, who is this Lucifer? The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” So, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty.
The pride of the Babylonian rulers reflected the attitude of “the god of this world”—Satan the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4) He too lusts for power and longs to place himself above Jehovah God. But Lucifer is not another name for satan the devil.

That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind—not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” So, clearly “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature. (Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16)

Overthinking possible scenarios is not very productive if they do not align with scripture. The Bible must be the foundation of all that we believe.

Like I repeat often , man was never meant to be made flesh , had satan not rebelled we would not have been .

Let's go to Job to get an idea of when our souls were created

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh.

How did God know us before we were born of flesh, and please don't because He knows everything

God destroyed this earth long before man was made flesh, we were here on this earth in the bodies we were meant to be in, the same bodies that we shall return to at death or the return of Christ , whichever comes first

Understand the world before the one that we are in now is crucial to understanding the Word

We don't have a soul, we are a soul, we have a body(flesh) for the purpose of this age .

When do you actually think that soul was created?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Like I repeat often , man was never meant to be made flesh , had satan not rebelled we would not have been .

Where does the Bible say this? When God created man at the conclusion of the 6th “day”, he said it was “very good”. How does that convey that idea that “man was never meant to be made flesh”?

Let's go to Job to get an idea of when our souls were created

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh.

How did God know us before we were born of flesh, and please don't because He knows everything

Where do you get the idea that the angels who were observing and celebrating earth’s creation had to become humans because satan rebelled? Am I understanding this correctly?

The angels were never designed to become humans....they are an altogether different creation designed to live in a completely different realm. There is no mention of angels becoming humans except in their role as messengers. Since it was against God’s law for humans to communicate with spirits, angels usually materialised in human form.

God destroyed this earth long before man was made flesh, we were here on this earth in the bodies we were meant to be in, the same bodies that we shall return to at death or the return of Christ , whichever comes first

Understand the world before the one that we are in now is crucial to understanding the Word

Where will I find this information? What world existed before this one? None of this is in the Bible, so, from where have you sourced this idea?

We don't have a soul, we are a soul, we have a body(flesh) for the purpose of this age

When do you actually think that soul was created?

The more important question is what do I believe a “soul” is? According to Genesis all living breathing creatures on this earth are “souls”. The word literally means a “breather”.

King Solomon lamented that humans and animals have the same breath (spirit) and die the same death....he could see no advantage in being human. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) All “return to the dust”.
A “soul” is a mortal creature, and when that mortal creature dies, there is nothing that survives. (Ezekiel 18:4)

A “soul” is not something that inhabits a body....the Bible shows that a body + breath = a soul. This is what God did with Adam when he was created. God formed a body and gave it breath...the man then “became a living soul”. (Genesis 2:7) The only way for a soul to be restored to life, is by resurrection.
The teaching of the resurrection (of the kind Jesus performed on his friend Lazarus. John 11:11-14) is made redundant by the idea that a souls can live without a body. Jesus said Lazarus was “sleeping”, not that he had gone somewhere else.

Are you part of a Christian brotherhood? Are there others who believe as you do? It is a strange concept for someone like me who has studied the Bible for 50 years....

 

[brightfame52]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment. These “elect” have been “chosen” in Jesus Christ, and they WILL come to faith in the Lord. God has so “Enabled” their “will”, that they cannot “reject” His “Saving Grace”, and WILL be saved.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation, Paul say in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we PERSUADE men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences” (verse 11)? The word “persuade” means, “to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with”. IF, the “men” here means only the “elect”, who WILL come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, then WHY do these need to be PLEADED with? Not only so, but Paul goes on to say, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were PLEADING (παρακᾰλέω, invite, appeal to, encourage, exhort) through us: we implore (δέομαι, long for, beg) you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (verse 20).

It is ABSURD that those who have been PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world, to be the ELECT of God, who WILL come to Jesus for salvation, because God has to DETERMINED it, should be PLEADED with, and APPEALED to, and EXHORTED, and BEGGED, to be “RECONCILED” with God.

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

This language shows beyond any doubt, to those who don’t have a theological bent, that both Paul and Jesus Christ are speaking to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and NOT only the ELECT! The ELECT have no FREE WILL of their own, and really have NO SAY in whether they are saved or not, as God has already DETERMINED this for them, even before the world was Created. So we are told by the “Reformed/Calvinists”.

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

God gives the Elect the Gift of Faith, thats persuasion, otherwise the Elect would remain in unbelief like the non elect. God persuades those whom Christ has died for and put away their sins and Justified them.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

God gives the Elect the Gift of Faith, thats persuasion, otherwise the Elect would remain in unbelief like the non elect. God persuades those whom Christ has died for and put away their sins and Justified them.

If, as you say, that God gives the elect the gift of faith, then why would He damn those who do not have faith, as John 3:18 clearly says? Your theology makes God unjust!

 

[brightfame52]

If, as you say, that God gives the elect the gift of faith, then why would He damn those who do not have faith, as John 3:18 clearly says? Your theology makes God unjust!

He dams them for their sins.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

He dams them for their sins.

It says UNBELIEF