Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

[CadyandZoe]

The Hebrew word does not mean evil but disaster and calamity

Actually the Hebrew word also means "evil." But let's put that aside for the moment and look at the verse again.

Isaiah 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.

Isaiah's statement contains polar opposites in order to communicate the idea of "totality", "entirety", or "the entirety of reality." In other words, as John the apostle states, "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." This would include evil. God creates everything and nothing comes into being apart from him.

If a storm wipes out a city, God created it. If a mother has twins, God created it. If a feather falls to the left rather than to the right, God created it.

What is Isaiah's point? He is speaking to King Cyrus, a foreign king who has never heard of Yahweh. King Cyrus needs to know that he is dealing with the only God that exists and that he is the God of Israel. Cyrus needs to be careful how he treats God's people.

So far, in my study of the Bible, I have found that whenever the Bible reveals divine determinism, the central issue is God's ability to keep his promises. We need to know that there isn't one God who creates well-being, while at the same time, another God who creates calamity. There is only one God and he creates them both. And the only question is whether the one God, who creates them both is good. I think he is good and the Bible teaches that he is good.

This is good news for us. Divine determinism is good news and very encouraging, since nothing in this creation can thwart God from keeping his promise of eternal life from us. God's sovereignty is an essential part of the Gospel message, which our brother and apostle Paul wrote to the Romans.

35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8:35

Read the entire context here: Romans 8:31-39

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Actually the Hebrew word also means "evil." But let's put that aside for the moment and look at the verse again.

Isaiah 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.

Isaiah's statement contains polar opposites in order to communicate the idea of "totality", "entirety", or "the entirety of reality." In other words, as John the apostle states, "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." This would include evil. God creates everything and nothing comes into being apart from him.

If a storm wipes out a city, God created it. If a mother has twins, God created it. If a feather falls to the left rather than to the right, God created it.

What is Isaiah's point? He is speaking to King Cyrus, a foreign king who has never heard of Yahweh. King Cyrus needs to know that he is dealing with the only God that exists and that he is the God of Israel. Cyrus needs to be careful how he treats God's people.

So far, in my study of the Bible, I have found that whenever the Bible reveals divine determinism, the central issue is God's ability to keep his promises. We need to know that there isn't one God who creates well-being, while at the same time, another God who creates calamity. There is only one God and he creates them both. And the only question is whether the one God, who creates them both is good. I think he is good and the Bible teaches that he is good.

This is good news for us. Divine determinism is good news and very encouraging, since nothing in this creation can thwart God from keeping his promise of eternal life from us. God's sovereignty is an essential part of the Gospel message, which our brother and apostle Paul wrote to the Romans.

35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8:35

Read the entire context here: Romans 8:31-39

I know that the Hebrew adjective, רַע, can be used for our English "evil". My point is that in the verse in Isaiah 45:7, the Hebrew here does not mean "evil". The context here says that God "בָּרָא רַע", and the Hebrew verb, "בָּרָא", can also mean "produce, cause", which would make God the author of EVIL, which is impossible, as He is HOLY, the complete opposite. It is like the Hebrew "אֱלֹהִים", which is used for the GOD of the Bible, but also for "rulers, judges, angels, and false gods", etc

 

[ScottA]

It would be lovely if you asked, 'if Gods wrath is not violence against his creatures, then what is it?' but seeing you're not asking, any explanation probably wouldn't make sense. To take it even further, any explanation would be interpreted as a threat to the view around which so much eschatological theology is built around.

If you think it sad that many of those who are His like the idea of Him breaking the teeth of our common enemy, you have not perceived His heart...for that is the prayer of David.

 

[michaelvpardo]

What a mix up and confusion of ideas and texts.

It's accepted Christian doctrine for 2000 years. I don't expect you to understand spiritual principles. That isn't even a possibility to a carnal mind, but I know your mind is carnal because it's exactly like mine before I was born again.

I didn't present these verses to change your mind or convince you of truth. The truth is in the verses, but only the Holy Spirit can change your perspective and create in you a clean heart prepared to receive Him. I'll be praying that He opens the eyes of your mind.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Please refresh my memory Enoch.....I cannot recall a single verse where Jesus ever claimed that....Yahweh only ever referred to the Father....never once to the son. Please show us where it says that.

Yah havah means Yah the life giver. (Anglicized as Jehovah)
Yah shuah meany Yah our Savior. (Anglicized as Joshua)
God's name is Yah and you'll find that version in scripture if you look for it.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

The part where this argument goes completely off the rails is the part where you say the elect doesn't have a choice but to respond. That is not how it works at all. The elect's minds are opened to be able to understand what they're being told, but they still have to decide whether or not they will act on that knowledge. God didn't create robots.

Your argument supposes that Jesus' disciples had no choice but to follow Him once they met Him, but that isn't what happened. They followed Him because at least most of them knew He was a prophet that was sent by God. When the followers in Jhn 6 walked away from Jesus, did Jesus twist their arm and make them stay put against their will? No, He simply asked the 12 original disciples if they wanted to leave as well.

The Jewish understanding of the God of the Bible is wrong, as they reject the Holy Trinity. Unitarianism is totally FALSE

The Jews' understanding of the Bible is certainly wrong, but not because they refuse to subscribe to the illogical doctrines about God being a trinity.

Deuteronomy 6:4

The people who use Deut. 6:4 as "proof" that the trinity is biblical overlook 2 crucial points:

1. A more accurate translation has Moses saying "alone", not "one".

2. The context of the entire chapter is clearly about Israel being commanded to listen to God's voice instead of the dictates of false prophets. That's where verse 4 comes in when the Israelites were reminded that the God that rescued them from Egypt is the only true God. There is literally nothing about that verse or chapter that supports the trinity doctrine.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

The Jews' understanding of the Bible is certainly wrong, but not because they refuse to subscribe to the illogical doctrines about God being a trinity.

Of course "God's Ways Are Not our ways, and God's Thoughts Are Not
our thoughts" (ILLogical), but There Is Still Plenty Of ILLogical Evidence
In Plain And Clear (500 Passages, to be Exact!) Scriptures!:

"Complete" Case For JESUS Is Almighty God!

But, of course some/(Many?) will Never "be persuaded," Correct?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Lambano]

If you think it sad that many of those who are His like the idea of Him breaking the teeth of our common enemy, you have not perceived His heart...for that is the prayer of David.

No, I understand why we would rejoice at the crushing of our enemies. It's a very human thing to do, even for Jesus's people. However, Jesus also said,

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

and Ezekiel writes

“As surely as I live,” declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live."

I find the mixed messages confusing.

 

[ScottA]

No, I understand why we would rejoice at the crushing of our enemies. It's a very human thing to do, even for Jesus's people. However, Jesus also said,

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

and Ezekiel writes

“As surely as I live,” declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live."

I find the mixed messages confusing.

The point is...yes, God has pointed out both His hatred and His love, and Christ has confirmed what is greatest--

And yet this same Jesus, to the surprise of those who love Him for his love, brought a sword, saying there is a time to lay it down, and a time to take it up. It is God's good pleasure to divide the light from the darkness, even daily. But those who are genuine among those who applaud His justice, we also greatly prefer His love.

 

[quietthinker]

If you think it sad that many of those who are His like the idea of Him breaking the teeth of our common enemy, you have not perceived His heart...for that is the prayer of David.

David obviously had limitations in understanding that love for ones enemies is why God gives life to them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yah havah means Yah the life giver. (Anglicized as Jehovah)
Yah shuah meany Yah our Savior. (Anglicized as Joshua)
God's name is Yah and you'll find that version in scripture if you look for it.

Are you serious? Do you know how many names in the Bible incorporate the divine name? Look up the "J" names in any English translation....many of them incorporate Jehovah's name.

Je·hoshʹa·phat.....Jehovah is Judge
Jeshʹua.....Jehovah is salvation
Jer·e·miʹah....Jehovah loosens (the womb), or, Jehovah exalts
Je·hoʹram.....Jehovah is high, exalted
Je·honʹa·than....Jehovah has given
Je·honʹa·dab....Jehovah is liberal, noble, or has impelled
Je·hoiʹa·kim.....Jehovah raises up

Are all of these people Jehovah too?

That is horribly flawed reasoning if that's all you have.

The expression "Hallelujah" is the English translation of the Hebrew "Praise Jah"......"Jah" being the shortened form of the divine name.

Please give us scripture that is a direct statement from God or his Son that they are both equally "God" with the holy spirit....if your trinity is true there should be no shortage....
I challenge anyone to provide even one clear admission....and without a lot of scriptural gymnastics in order to make it true....

 

[quietthinker]

Are you serious? Do you know how many names in the Bible incorporate the divine name? Look up the "J" names in any English translation....many of them incorporate Jehovah's name.

Je·hoshʹa·phat.....Jehovah is Judge
Jeshʹua.....Jehovah is salvation
Jer·e·miʹah....Jehovah loosens (the womb), or, Jehovah exalts
Je·hoʹram.....Jehovah is high, exalted
Je·honʹa·than....Jehovah has given
Je·honʹa·dab....Jehovah is liberal, noble, or has impelled
Je·hoiʹa·kim.....Jehovah raises up

Are all of these people Jehovah too?

That is horribly flawed reasoning if that's all you have.

The expression "Hallelujah" is the English translation of the Hebrew "Praise Jah"......"Jah" being the shortened form of the divine name.

Please give us scripture that is a direct statement from God or his Son that they are both equally "God" with the holy spirit....if your trinity is true there should be no shortage....
I challenge anyone to provide even one clear admission....and without a lot of scriptural gymnastics in order to make it true....

You guys just miss the point totally. God's name is his character! Is there a chance you don't know what that means? My guess it's a pretty high chance.

God's character is of a nature any human expression in words cannot adequately describe. His character is manifest in his willingness to take human form and allow his creatures to murder him.....how do you put that into a word?
John's attempt says ' God is love and in him is no darkness at all'.....note God is Love, it doesn't say 'God has love'
The embodiment of his person is love.

Now I know AJ, this idea is right out of the ball park for you, subsequently you stay stuck in the sand pit of childish debate about words.....debate pretending to be insightful. What utter and complete foolishness!

Edit....learning to understand Hebrew idiom goes a long way in understanding Hebrew expressions. Without that understanding you thrash around the scriptures with a Greek head.

 

[n2thelight]

Great question because as you correctly stated, not all Christians are “elected” by God. They had a purpose and they knew upon their anointing with God’s spirit, exactly what God has chosen them to do. (Revelation 20:6)

The Kingdom of God was the solution to the fall in Eden. It was God’s means of providing a way to restore everything that was lost by those first three rebels. So, what did we lose?

The fact that God evicted the humans from the paradise he had lovingly prepared for them, and cursed the ground from which they would have to eke out their means of living, shows us his complete displeasure with what they were persuaded to do. He did not take their lives immediately, but allowed them to populate the earth as he had instructed them.....but not having access to “the tree of life”, the humans physically died within the “day” that they ate from the forbidden fruit. (2 Peter 3:8) Yet spiritually they had died to him already. (“Dead in their trespasses and sins”)

Along with this eviction, the devil came to reveal something else that God had done with regard to that fist rebel, who became known as satan the devil...which was not a name, but rather a description of his evil qualities.

Luke 4:5-8 describes one of the temptations given to Jesus by the devil. In that account, the devil revealed that he had been given “all the kingdoms of the world” to do with as he pleased. Meaning that 1 John 5:19 explains why the world has experienced so much trouble during all of man’s history. God has never ruled this world.

So, world rulership was completely tied up with the devil’s influence.....and only world rulership restored by, and to it’s Creator, would fix it. It would come at a price....but God would provide it at great cost to himself....the sacrifice of his beloved “firstborn” son who paid for our release from the debt that Adam and his wife passed on to us. (Romans 5:12)

The operation of the Kingdom of God was something that was presented to God’s ancient people only in vague terms.....until the coming of the Messiah. Jesus made the coming of God’s kingdom his main focus. (John 18:33-37) In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus taught his disciples to pray for God’s Kingdom to “come”, so that His will could be “done, on earth as it is in heaven”.

Daniel 2:44 prophesied that God would bring in his Kingdom by “crushing” all failed human rulership under the devil’s control, out of existence, and replacing them with the rulership of the His own appointed King and those he had selected to become “kings and priests” in that Kingdom. God has carefully chosen his King and all who will assist him in restoring mankind in reconciliation, giving the redeemed human race the opportunity to live the life their Creator planned for them all along. (Isaiah 55:11)

The choosing of this group began in the first century, and through many difficulties created by the formation of Christendom throughout history, has continued to this day.

This is what makes sense to me.

For me it goes way before Adam ,like in the reason man was made flesh.

They were chosen for what they did during the rebellion of satan , then known as lucifer

 

[Aunty Jane]

For me it goes way before Adam ,like in the reason man was made flesh.

They were chosen for what they did during the rebellion of satan , then known as lucifer

That is a very different story to the one told in the scriptures....where did these ideas come from?

There is no "before Adam" as far as humankind are concerned. There were intelligent creatures in existence before the Universe was created but these were not material creatures. Angels are spirit beings, created to be in attendance upon their Creator in a completely different realm....with a completely different definition of life. Spirit creatures do not depend on external things to keep them alive like humans do. From the Bible we see that they were in existence first. Only God can cause their death, whereas humans can die in a multitude of ways.
Our lives are sustained by what is contained within the earthly realm....air, food and water are vital to our existence and supplied in abundance by our Creator. These are not needed by angels....and yet the Genesis account assures us that there was no natural cause of death for humans, as long as they obeyed their Creator, death would never happen.

The reason why "man was made flesh", from the scriptural point of view, is that God (for his own reasons) decided to bring material creation into existence. With one almighty act of power he brought the whole Universe into existence. (Genesis 1:1) The "beginning" back then was the beginning of the material Universe. God then prepared one planet for habitation and filled it with living creatures. Lastly he created man as a caretaker for all that he had made on this earth. This was God's instructions for them....

Genesis 1:27-28...
"And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
So that was their assignment.

The name Lucifer occurs only once in the Scriptures and only in some versions of the Bible. For example, the King James Version renders Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” Lucifer means "shining one"...."morning star'...bringer of the dawn".
So, who is this Lucifer? The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” So, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty.
The pride of the Babylonian rulers reflected the attitude of “the god of this world”—Satan the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4) He too lusts for power and longs to place himself above Jehovah God. But Lucifer is not another name for satan the devil.

That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind—not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” So, clearly “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature. (Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16)

Overthinking possible scenarios is not very productive if they do not align with scripture. The Bible must be the foundation of all that we believe.

 

[quietthinker]

Overthinking possible scenarios is not very productive if they do not align with scripture. The Bible must be the foundation of all that we believe.

hmmmm.... overthinking? ... is that code for, don't allow yourself to think differently to me?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I know that the Hebrew adjective, רַע, can be used for our English "evil". My point is that in the verse in Isaiah 45:7, the Hebrew here does not mean "evil". The context here says that God "בָּרָא רַע", and the Hebrew verb, "בָּרָא", can also mean "produce, cause", which would make God the author of EVIL, which is impossible, as He is HOLY, the complete opposite. It is like the Hebrew "אֱלֹהִים", which is used for the GOD of the Bible, but also for "rulers, judges, angels, and false gods", etc

Of course. I don't disagree with you. Did you catch the point I made? Isaiah's claim is that God creates EVERYTHING. This would include evil also. And John the apostle repeats that idea in the second verse of his gospel.

 

[quietthinker]

Of course. I don't disagree with you. Did you catch the point I made? Isaiah's claim is that God creates EVERYTHING. This would include evil also. And John the apostle repeats that idea in the second verse of his gospel.

Are you suggesting God made rape, murder, slander, theft, lying, unfaithfulness etc, C&Z?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Of course. I don't disagree with you. Did you catch the point I made? Isaiah's claim is that God creates EVERYTHING. This would include evil also. And John the apostle repeats that idea in the second verse of his gospel.

Isaiah says no such thing, it is so called "refornmed" theology, that makes God the AUTHOR of sin!

IF, God created evil, then WHY would He punish us for doing what He Created?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are you suggesting God made rape, murder, slander, theft, lying, unfaithfulness etc, C&Z?

Yes. That is what I am suggesting. The question is, does this mean God is evil? I don't think so. Paul the apostle answered this objection in Romans 9, where he reminds his readers, and us also, that we are created, divine artifacts, i.e. things made.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory . . . Romans 9:19-23

Who are you, O man?
The answer is, I am a created thing. I am the thing molded.

Does not the potter have the right?
The answer is yes, the potter has the right of creation. That is, he has the right to make whatever he wants to make and he has the right to treat his creation according to the purpose he set for it.

In other words, God is not evil to create evil people. If God should make an evil man, who does despicable evil during his lifetime, God is not evil to punish that man for the evil he committed, even though he created him for that purpose. Why, because God has the right of creation. He can make anyone for any purpose.

Paul is answering the question, "Is God unjust for rewarding Jacob before the boy was born and apart from whether the boy did good or bad?" The implied answer is this, Because God is the creator of all that exists, he is not unjust when he assigns punishment or reward according to his divine purpose. He knew his purpose for Jacob even before he brought Jacob into existence. And God treated Jacob according to Jacob's raison d'etre.

In his explanation, Paul employs an analogy; God is like a potter who creates pots, making each pot for a unique purpose. If a potter needs a pot for flowers, he or she makes a vase. If the potter needs a place to urinate, he makes another pot for that purpose. Likewise, if God needs a person on whom to have mercy, he makes a person for that purpose. If he needs a person on whom to show his judgment, he makes a person for that purpose. And from the standpoint of being the creator of everything, God is not unjust to create both kinds.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Isaiah says no such thing, it is so called "refornmed" theology, that makes God the AUTHOR of sin!

IF, God created evil, then WHY would He punish us for doing what He Created?

See my post to @quietthinker where I briefly remind us of Paul's argument in Romans 9. My first post in this thread warns us that we won't understand this concept unless we are willing to accept the fact that God is the transcendent creator of all that exists. God is the creator and we are the think created. God is telling a story with his creation. Our reality is like a novel that God is writing. If, for the sake of the story, he needs someone to put Jesus on a cross, he creates that person for that purpose. He created Judas to betray Jesus to the authorities so that Jesus would die on a cross. Both Jesus and Peter agree that Jesus went to the cross according to a predetermined plan. Peter says that Judas betrayed Jesus according to a predetermined plan. But his argument only makes sense if God himself, created Judas for that purpose, and that Judas was acting according to the purpose God set for him.

Would it be unjust for God to then punish Judas for betraying Jesus? No. Just as we wouldn't punish J.R.R Tolkien for creating Sauron, we wouldn't blame God for creating Judas, and we would all agree that Judas got what he deserved.