Considering that the church allowed the body parts of saints to be scattered and kept as Holy Relics, perhaps the Lord didn't want the body of Moses desecrated in such a fashion, but the Lord showed me that Hoshea son of Nun was a type of Christ a long time ago, and it's been understood from other passages that Moses was a type of the law, so in context this makes perfect sense.
The Canaanites in the book of Joshua are a "type of sin" that were to be destroyed to keep the people Holy, but in failing to cleanse the land of them, the Lord said: know for certain that the Lord your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the Lord your God has given you. Joshua 23 :13
This is similar language to that of the Apostle Paul in describing his "affliction," and I don't believe in scriptural coincidence. This would refer to what some call besetting sin. Those fleshly things we cling to which tend to lead to physical death, but aren't condemning in nature.
I knew the passage was in Deuteronomy, but I'm terrible with chapter and verse numbers, so I searched on Bing. 4 Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land of which I swore to give Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have caused you to see it with your eyes, but you shall not cross over there.”
5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. Deuteronomy 34:4-6
I don't think that the Lord required a shovel, but it certainly wouldn't have been a problem to speak one into existence.
I've wondered why there? Why mount Nebo? Why a valley in Moab?
The patriarchs were buried in a cave in Machpelah, near Mamre where Abraham dwelt in tents. The Israelites carried the body of Joseph from Egypt to be buried in the land of his fathers, but Moses wasn't permitted to cross the Jordan.
I'm sure that Joshua was a "type" of Christ and crossing the Jordan represented our entry into new life, so perhaps Moses was left in Moab to represent the law being left behind to live by grace. The Lord just taught me another detail. Thank you for your post. I might have missed that aspect of the "type" if I hadn't seen your post, and I don't spend as much time just reading scripture as I did when I was younger.
Thank you for sharing. It is all so confusing to me not knowing the history there. When speaking of Moab …a silly question concerning Ruth as a Moabite. Does ‘Moabite’ come from ‘Moab’?
Thank you for sharing. It is all so confusing to me not knowing the history there. When speaking of Moab …a silly question concerning Ruth as a Moabite. Does ‘Moabite’ come from ‘Moab’?
His body was divinized. Because His body obeyed His will during His earthly life it serves His will in eternity. It no longer is subject to location or any law whatsoever. Not even the laws of physics. It obeys Jesus' will. Whatever Jesus wills it obeys. If Jesus wills location or physical form His body is no longer subject to matter. Where did it go? With His soul which was united to his divinity at His conception.
Power by force.
Many believe the Trinity doctrine's roots run deep in paganism, and that the only reason persons declared the holy spirit a person, is due to wanting a third person to make up a Trinity.
Could there be a Trinity without a third person? Clearly not, since that would not be triune.
The concept of God being three, does not appear anywhere in the "OT", from what I have read. Perhaps someone can correct me.
As regards it being found in the "NT" usually I hear persons offering explanations, but they don't tend to mesh with other scriptures.
That's why I made this thread, and asked for an explanation on these verse.
I want to hear how one who believes the holy spirit to be a person, would explain its "nature".
Thanks for your input Robert.
You are very welcome John, and feel free to call me Bob. Triune gods seemed to be more important earlier, it seems lately that more and more are not speaking about a triune god, rather promoting more on the line of Jesus being Jehovah Himself, who personally came in the flesh.
Thank you for sharing. It is all so confusing to me not knowing the history there. When speaking of Moab …a silly question concerning Ruth as a Moabite. Does ‘Moabite’ come from ‘Moab’?
Yes, Ruth wasn't an Israelite. Moab was the son of "righteous" Lot and one of his daughters. Lot was a nephew to Abraham and lived before Jacob was born. Jacob was renamed Israel.
No I am not making any assumptions based on suppositions. Christians need to learn to connect the dots.
All references to the final ascension of Christ speak of Him being received up into Heaven by Himself. They do not include anyone else. Therefore it is perfectly fitting that we turn to Hebrews 9:11,12 to see what Christ accomplished immediately after His resurrection and before His final ascension. The first order of business was to take His own blood to the Heavenly Sanctuary and apply it to the mercy seat. That was already prefigured with the Mercy Seat over the Ark of the Covenant under the Law of Moses.
Since our citizenship is in Heaven, Paul is telling ALL the saints (including us) in Hebrews 12:22-24 that there are six occupants or groups of occupants in the New Jerusalem which is in Heaven:
1. An innumerable company of angels
2. All the NT saints who have passed on -- "the general assembly and Church of the firstborn"
3. God the Father "the Judge of all"
4. All the OT saints perfected by Christ -- "the spirits of just men made perfect"
5. "Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant"
6. The blood of Christ -- "the blood of sprinkling". It should be obvious that this blood is connected to Hebrews 9:11,12.
The fact that the OT saints went to the New Jerusalem is based on the fact that the righteous dead in Sheol/Hades prior to the resurrection of Christ were in Abraham's bosom. Now Abraham anticipated being in the New Jerusalem, just as Job anticipated seeing his Redeemer face to face. So their expectations were fulfilled after the resurrection of Christ (which was after the finished work of Christ).
Enoch. Why do you say "our citizenship is in Heaven"? Why do you call yourself a saint?
There are millions of Christians who do not apply Phillippians 3:20 to themselve, but who understand that Paul's is addressing annointed ones - annointed by God, that is chosen by him as adopted sons. They recognize that God does the choosing. We don't.
What is it that makes you think you are a saint whose calling is heaven? What are you called for?
Also, why do you refer to faithful ones of old as saints? Which scripture does?
Now notice what is stated in Hebrews 11:16 regarding the city for the OT saints -- But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. And for Abraham in particular we read (v 10): For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.These verses tell us that even while the OT saints were in Sheol/Hades they expected to be in the New Jerusalem at a future time.
Almost every translation renders that verse the same as you quoted.
The Greek rendering though, is not the same.
The Greek word is ἐπουράνιος, ον, translated to English as epouranios - of heaven So, I'll read it as it was written in Greek, by the writer.
Hebrews 11:16 reads... "But now they are yearning for a better [place], that is, of heaven..." That does make a difference to me, because it doesn't signify what many believe... as you put it, "to be in the New Jerusalem".
They were indeed looking to the future coming kingdom of God, and its benefits, because this is what was promised to Abraham, and they had faith in that promise.
Your view on this please.
I assume you favor KJV, which renders that verse... "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." Do you think the words in and through, can make a significant difference? How would you rephrase that verse, in your own words, to your understanding?
Not at all -- if they are properly interpreted. John 3:13 speaks of the uniqueness of Christ, not that other have not gone to Heaven (e.g. Enoch and Elijah). Heb 6:19 speaks of the hope of those who are still alive on earth and expect to enter Heaven (and may do so in prayer). And Heb 10:19 speaks of boldness in prayer. But Hebrews 9 is all about Christ being in the Heavenly Sanctuary as the Great High Priest with His blood applied to the Mercy Seat (prefigured in the OT).
So you are saying you properly interpreted the verse to be with reference to the uniqueness of Christ.
You know Enoch, I have to apologize to you, because I have to say, the scriptures do not say Enoch111 has the gift of interpretation, nor authority to interpret scripture. Rather, it says this, quite informatively... "Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God?" Genesis 40:8
Along with that humble servant of Jehovah, Daniel, a precious servant of God, said this, when called upon to interpret dreams... "there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets" - Daniel 2:28
He too, let God do the interpreting, so I follow their example, and let God's word do the interpreting.
It doesn't say what you believe, but it tells me this... very pointedly Enoch, and I am not going to alter it for someone's "interpretation".
"...no onehath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven..."
That's very direct Enoch... and need no "interpreting". I think to adjust that pointed statement, we have to do some twisting.
Many persons do that in order to make the scriptures fit their ideas, or their beliefs. I don't believe you are deliberately twisting the scriptures.
I believe you sincerely believe these things based on your understanding.
However, I try to adjust my ideas or beliefs to fit the scriptures.
One of the thing I learned, is that no one went to heaven prior to Jesus, because scripture says Jesus is the firstfruits to God (1 Corinthians 15:20-25 (these are scripture people actually read, and quote, and yet...)). Thus he is the first adopted son - first to be annointed by holy spirit. He is the firstborn from the dead - first to be resurrected to everlasting life, as an immortal heavenly being. (Revelation 1:5)
So if one makes the claim otherwise, they would certainly need to show the scriptures that contradict those facts.
Another thing I learned is that while many think... I don't understand why, maybe you can help me with this... Why do you believe a man can just be taken to heaven just like that, although you know the scriptures say... "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." - 1 Corinthians 15:50
Can you explain?
*** it-1 p. 712 Elijah ***
Elijah does not die at this time, nor does he go into the invisible spirit realm, but he is transferred to another prophetic assignment. (Joh 3:13) This is shown by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master. A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. - 2Chronicles 21:12-15; see HEAVEN (Ascension to Heaven).
So by allowing the scriptures to speak, and adjusting my ideas to fit scripture, I am able to see whose religious beliefs align with scripture, making clear to me, who are really Jehovah's people, as opposed to those who are misled by false teachers. Which ultimately are blinded by same Satan. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
Luke 22:28-30 is strictly about the eleven apostles -- Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Paul would be added later as the 12th apostle.
Enoch. I love you.
Please, take note of this, and please do not ignore it. I really hope to be your brother.
Read Acts 1:5-26, and see if the statement you just made is true, according to scripture.
Afterward, I hope that will help you to answer some important questions... one being, "Do I really know the truth, or do I now need to be like the Ethiopian Eunuch, and seek the help of a servant of the true God - a disciple of Christ?"
This is from the depth of my heart, in my love for you Enoch.
John 14:1-3 is about the Rapture and Luke 12:32 is about Christ's flock of believers -- those who are children of God and will enter into the Kingdom of God (having entered spiritually).
Whom would you say are those children of God, and how are they known, would you say?
My understanding is that they must be born again - born of water and spirit. John 3:3-5
Would you agree? How is one born of water and spirit?
Very good knowledge supplied here....thank you so much...I never put much thought about His body until recently when I was participating in a thread discussing whether our spirit leaves the body at the time of death or sleeps until the resurrection....
And that is when that "aha" moment came while I was debating....I always try to find a scripture that tells what Jesus did...(remember the WWJD movement?)....so this is when I became convinced that our spirit leaves the body....it is the "breath" of life....there is no breath in a corpse...
So as Jesus spoke His last words His spirit left His body....but rejoined it on the day of His resurrection....where was His spirit hanging around for 3 days? Well we know scripture says He was busy setting captives free and taking authority over Satan....but He wasn't doing this in His fleshly body...it was His spiritual body...which makes sense because He was operating in the spirit realm.
Loving this discussion and all the input...thank you!
One God three person's is exclusively Christian. Only God can say " I always was," The trinity is seen in the first passage in the OT.
In the beginning (Jesus is the beginning and end in Him all things are made) God created ( the Father's sovereign will ) the heavens and the earth and the Spirit of God hovered over the deep. This is the Holy Spirit.
Only these three always were. No creature can know what that's like. God will always be a mystery to every creature.
The Father loves the Son and the Son returns the Father's love. This divine act spirates another divine person that is referenced when one hears "God is love" The Holy Spirit reveals the love of the Father and Son. That is what He does.
Considering that the church allowed the body parts of saints to be scattered and kept as Holy Relics, perhaps the Lord didn't want the body of Moses desecrated in such a fashion, but the
Satan argued for the body of Moses. He lost. Moses' tomb is a mystery because Moses' body and soul are not apart. The empty tomb is victory over death and Moses didn't accomplish that. But his body had to have a place until Satan was corrected by the Lord. Jesus did that.
Satan argued for the body of Moses. He lost. Moses' tomb is a mystery because Moses' body and soul are not apart. The empty tomb is victory over death and Moses didn't accomplish that. But his body had to have a place until Satan was corrected by the Lord. Jesus did that.
This is a lovely fiction, but your understanding goes well beyond what scripture actually says. No one knows where the body of Moses is now unless they've received special revelation from the Lord, and such fiction does nothing to glorify Christ, which is the primary purpose of Christian testimony. Moses was a man and a sinner who was chosen by God to serve His purposes. There's no more reason to give him glory than there is to elevate the mother of our Lord. I'm Christian, not Jewish.
Because I am a saint, and God sees me as a saint. So why has your response deviated from addressing the topic and gone off on a questioning of the faith of others? Since you have just arrived here, how do we know that you are not simply trolling? Or just trying to stir the pot? And just because you are unable or unwilling to connect the dots does not mean that others are in the same position.
Now we have a dilemma....
If Jesus ghost left his body when He was on the Cross then He must have re-entered His body...(His spirit) in order for Mary to see Him in the flesh....
This is true...it could lead to the conclusion that He was now in His glorified body if one considers a glorified body to mean putting off the corruptible and putting on the incorruptible....not to say Jesus committed any sin of the flesh....afterall He was tempted but yet He did not yield to that temptation but resisted and the tempter fled.
But by His obedience when He resurrected then the prophesy was fulfilled in that by Adam all were made sinners and by one man all were made righteous....undoing the works of Satan and destroying the curse of sin and death.
Jesus is a Person and He spoke of the Holy Spirit as one like Him. He described Him as taking of His and giving to His disciples. That seems like something a person does to me.
A lot of persons think that way, but many realize it's not a logical conclusion, since people use similar personalizing of things in the same way.
You might have heard people speak of their car, or some other object dear to them, as though it is a person.
"My baby is faithful. She takes me wherever I want to go." Their car.
What do you think about this?
One God three person's is exclusively Christian. Only God can say " I always was," The trinity is seen in the first passage in the OT.
In the beginning (Jesus is the beginning and end in Him all things are made) God created ( the Father's sovereign will ) the heavens and the earth and the Spirit of God hovered over the deep. This is the Holy Spirit.
Only these three always were. No creature can know what that's like. God will always be a mystery to every creature.
The Father loves the Son and the Son returns the Father's love. This divine act spirates another divine person that is referenced when one hears "God is love" The Holy Spirit reveals the love of the Father and Son. That is what He does.
This is a lovely fiction, but your understanding goes well beyond what scripture actually says. No one knows where the body of Moses is now unless they've received special revelation from the Lord, and such fiction does nothing to glorify Christ, which is the primary purpose of Christian testimony. Moses was a man and a sinner who was chosen by God to serve His purposes. There's no more reason to give him glory than there is to elevate the mother of our Lord. I'm Christian, not Jewish.
Yes, and I am really surprised that on a forum for Bible Study, all kinds of fiction exists, and no scripture is even used... but why am I surprised... most folk don't even carry a Bible to church... at least in many cases. I am sure SDAs carry their Bible. I can't speak with 100% surety. Maybe 75-80% sure.
I'm 100% sure JWs always carry their Bible, and use it too.
A lot of persons think that way, but many realize it's not a logical conclusion, since people use similar personalizing of things in the same way.
You might have heard people speak of their car, or some other object dear to them, as though it is a person.
"My baby is faithful. She takes me wherever I want to go." Their car.
What do you think about this?
