Why do "Christians" wrestle with each other when...

[Johann]

1) "Put on the whole armor of God"

(endusasthe ten panoplian tou theou) "Put, ye on the Penelope (whole armor suit) of God." It is as if Paul were negatively saying, "Don't go out undressed for warfare or to war." The armor is God's...not man's. Man is to dress up in it voluntarily to have (1) security, (2) comfort, and (3) victory in spiritual warfare. God's armor of warfare equipment is available, sufficient and offers all that is needed for every soldier of the cross, light, and truth. Armor unused is like clothes unworn, 1Th_5:8.

2) "That ye may be able to stand" (pros to dunasthai humas stenai) "So that ye are (all) able to stand," like battle-ready soldiers, Rom_13:12; 2Co_6:4; 2Co_6:7.

3) "Against the wiles of the devil" (pros tas methodias tou diabolou) "Against the craftiness, deceitful methods of the devil;" 2Co_2:11 teaches that Satan may get or take advantage of the Christian soldier who does not put on the armor God provides for him, 1Th_2:18; 2Th_2:9; 1Pe_5:8. The devil uses base, crafty, sneaky stratagems to entrap soldiers of Christ and to assault and destroy the influence of His church.


1) "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood" (hoti ouk estin hemin he pale pros haima kai sarka) "But your conflict or struggle is not against feeble flesh and blood." In addition to the armor of the soldier for battle, Paul used the term "pale" to indicate the hand to hand nature of encounter one has with the Devil, much as that of the struggle of wrestlers, Luk_13:34; Rom_7:22-23. "Not against flesh and blood" indicates our struggle is not merely against man, Heb_2:14.

2) "But against principalities" (alla pros tas archas) "But toward the rulers;" Not a wrestling, struggling with flesh and blood, so much as a fight with principalities or rulers, here used in the sense of powers of evil that are devil-inspired, Eph_1:21; Eph_2:2; Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Joh_16:30.

3) "Against powers" (pros tas ekousias) "Against or toward the authorities," evil order of angels or spirits, demons that influence and harm men, Luk_8:26-33; Act_19:11-18. Evil spirits are under chains of restraint on the extent to which they may harm man, by the permissive will of God. Their certain judgment is sealed, Jud_1:7.

4) "Against the rulers of darkness of this world" (pros tous kosmokratoras tou skotous toutou) "Against this world-order of rulers of darkness," 2Co_4:4. Their evil and dark enmity against God is to terminate in defeat of their head, the Devil, to whom they are slaves and serfs, Heb_2:14. These demons and spirit-rulers operate world-wide, universally.

5) "Against spiritual wickedness" (pros ta pneumatika tes ponerias) "Toward or against the spiritual retinue or hosts of wickedness," (we struggle). The term "spiritual wickedness" is used to indicate, by way of special emphasis, that this struggle is more than that against "flesh and blood." It indicates a band of "spirit pirates;" hosts, hordes, or armies of wicked characters.

6) "In high places" (en tois epouranios) "in the heavenlies," means super-earthly, not merely tied to the earth, but also operating in space super-terrestrial (above the earth) and sub-celestial (below the heaven) where Christ intercedes. The Christian soldier's struggle with Satan and sin is against an horde of hostile spiritual pirates of the soul who must be resisted, 1Pe_5:8-9.




...Christians, true born from above believers, are not to wrestle each other!
-

 

[Ziggy]

.Christians, true born from above believers, are not to wrestle each other!

Yes and no.
I can see how when we wrestle with each other, it can be like training.
It can sometimes expose things you haven't seen before. Specially in yourself.
It shows you your weaknesses. Are you intolerant, bitter, aiming to defeat your opponent rather to strengthen them?
Are you wrestling in love or in anger?

I know what your saying though. And we should strive to lift each other up than to beat each other down.
I think ego is the hardest battle to overcome.

God Bless
Hugs

 

[Johann]

Yes and no.
I can see how when we wrestle with each other, it can be like training.
It can sometimes expose things you haven't seen before. Specially in yourself.
It shows you your weaknesses. Are you intolerant, bitter, aiming to defeat your opponent rather to strengthen them?
Are you wrestling in love or in anger?

I know what your saying though. And we should strive to lift each other up than to beat each other down.
I think ego is the hardest battle to overcome.

God Bless
Hugs

Hi Ziggi, yes, the ego eimi hey?
Pour me a cuppa coffee, it is 01:24 in the morning here.
God bless you and family
Johann

 

[Ziggy]

Hi Ziggi, yes, the ego eimi hey?
Pour me a cuppa coffee, it is 01:24 in the morning here.
God bless you and family
Johann

Welcome to the Family!
:cool:

Hugs

 

[Robert Gwin]

1) "Put on the whole armor of God"

(endusasthe ten panoplian tou theou) "Put, ye on the Penelope (whole armor suit) of God." It is as if Paul were negatively saying, "Don't go out undressed for warfare or to war." The armor is God's...not man's. Man is to dress up in it voluntarily to have (1) security, (2) comfort, and (3) victory in spiritual warfare. God's armor of warfare equipment is available, sufficient and offers all that is needed for every soldier of the cross, light, and truth. Armor unused is like clothes unworn, 1Th_5:8.

2) "That ye may be able to stand" (pros to dunasthai humas stenai) "So that ye are (all) able to stand," like battle-ready soldiers, Rom_13:12; 2Co_6:4; 2Co_6:7.

3) "Against the wiles of the devil" (pros tas methodias tou diabolou) "Against the craftiness, deceitful methods of the devil;" 2Co_2:11 teaches that Satan may get or take advantage of the Christian soldier who does not put on the armor God provides for him, 1Th_2:18; 2Th_2:9; 1Pe_5:8. The devil uses base, crafty, sneaky stratagems to entrap soldiers of Christ and to assault and destroy the influence of His church.


1) "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood" (hoti ouk estin hemin he pale pros haima kai sarka) "But your conflict or struggle is not against feeble flesh and blood." In addition to the armor of the soldier for battle, Paul used the term "pale" to indicate the hand to hand nature of encounter one has with the Devil, much as that of the struggle of wrestlers, Luk_13:34; Rom_7:22-23. "Not against flesh and blood" indicates our struggle is not merely against man, Heb_2:14.

2) "But against principalities" (alla pros tas archas) "But toward the rulers;" Not a wrestling, struggling with flesh and blood, so much as a fight with principalities or rulers, here used in the sense of powers of evil that are devil-inspired, Eph_1:21; Eph_2:2; Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Joh_16:30.

3) "Against powers" (pros tas ekousias) "Against or toward the authorities," evil order of angels or spirits, demons that influence and harm men, Luk_8:26-33; Act_19:11-18. Evil spirits are under chains of restraint on the extent to which they may harm man, by the permissive will of God. Their certain judgment is sealed, Jud_1:7.

4) "Against the rulers of darkness of this world" (pros tous kosmokratoras tou skotous toutou) "Against this world-order of rulers of darkness," 2Co_4:4. Their evil and dark enmity against God is to terminate in defeat of their head, the Devil, to whom they are slaves and serfs, Heb_2:14. These demons and spirit-rulers operate world-wide, universally.

5) "Against spiritual wickedness" (pros ta pneumatika tes ponerias) "Toward or against the spiritual retinue or hosts of wickedness," (we struggle). The term "spiritual wickedness" is used to indicate, by way of special emphasis, that this struggle is more than that against "flesh and blood." It indicates a band of "spirit pirates;" hosts, hordes, or armies of wicked characters.

6) "In high places" (en tois epouranios) "in the heavenlies," means super-earthly, not merely tied to the earth, but also operating in space super-terrestrial (above the earth) and sub-celestial (below the heaven) where Christ intercedes. The Christian soldier's struggle with Satan and sin is against an horde of hostile spiritual pirates of the soul who must be resisted, 1Pe_5:8-9.




...Christians, true born from above believers, are not to wrestle each other!
-

Agreed Joe, Christians do not fight against each other, but do war with those things you mentioned by scripture.

 

[Johann]

Agreed Joe, Christians do not fight against each other, but do war with those things you mentioned by scripture.

...and yet Robert, that is exactly what is happening, put Christians from various denominations together, talk about the law, the Shabbath, the keeping of the commandments, the Triune Godhead, and you will have a problem...speaking from experience

 

[Ferris Bueller]

...and yet Robert, that is exactly what is happening, put Christians from various denominations together, talk about the law, the Shabbath, the keeping of the commandments, the Triune Godhead, and you will have a problem...speaking from experience

"17As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Proverbs 27:17​

 

[Johann]

"17As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Proverbs 27:17​

Hi Ferris,
1) "Now I beseech you all, brethren," (parakalo de humas, adelphoi) "Now I appeal to you all, brethren," call you alongside me for close council and fellowship.

2) "Mark them which cause divisions and offences," (skopein tous tas dichostasias kai ta skandola poiountas) "To watch those continually who cause or make divisions, parties, factions, and offences;" Wolves or jackals in sheep's clothes, Mat_7:15-20; 2Pe_2:1. These are occasions of stumbling, an hindrance to any church. The Gk. term "skopein" means "keep your eye on" this kind of person as one to be avoided.

3) "Contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned," (para ten didochen hen humeis emathete) "Contrary to or in conflict with the teaching which you all learned;" Act_20:29-30; 1Ti_1:19-20; 1Jn_2:19. Such conduct if not disapproved, dis-fellowshipped, will cause the church and the name of Christ to be blasphemed, scandalized, or spoken against in a derogatory, hurtful manner, Rom_14:13; Rom_14:16.



4) "And avoid them," (kai ekklinete ap' auton) "And turn away from them, avoid them, have no company or fellowship with them 2Jn_1:9-11; Gal_1:6-9; 1Ti_6:5; 2Th_3:6; 2Th_3:14. Withdraw from their company or dismiss them from your congregation or fellowship number, 1Co_5:13.


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Iron sharpeneth iron,.... A sword or knife made of iron is sharpened by it; so butchers sharpen their knives;
so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend; by conversation with him; thus learned men sharpen one another's minds, and excite each other to learned studies; Christians sharpen one another's graces, or stir up each other to the exercise of them, and the gifts which are bestowed on them, and to love and to good works. So Jarchi and Gersom understand it of the sharpening of men's minds to the learning of doctrine; but Aben Ezra, takes it in an ill sense, that as iron strikes iron and sharpens it, so a wrathful man irritates and provokes wrath in another. Some render the words, "as iron delighteth in iron, so a man rejoiceth the countenance of his friend", (i): by his company and conversation.
...by Christians "wrestling" with each other, I mean bad mouth, slander, defamation of character etc, etc....which shows that they are not really Christians after all

Thank you for your input dear brother.
Johann

 

[Ferris Bueller]

...and yet Robert, that is exactly what is happening, put Christians from various denominations together, talk about the law, the Shabbath, the keeping of the commandments, the Triune Godhead, and you will have a problem...speaking from experience

That's where denominations come in handy.
I used to be against them. Now I know they keep strong opponents apart.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

...by Christians "wrestling" with each other, I mean bad mouth, slander, defamation of character etc, etc....which shows that they are not really Christians after all

Well, I wouldn't go that far. Not right off the bat anyway. God is able to use our differences to expose underlying sin so we can deal with it and grow up into the character of Christ. I mean, it's worked that way for me. I'm way different now than I was when I first started posting in Christian forums 17 years ago. And that growth helps me to tolerate and understand people who have yet to be trained by the battles of our various theological discussions. But don't get me wrong. There's a time to just walk away.

 

[Johann]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. Not right off the bat anyway. God is able to use our differences to expose underlying sin so we can deal with it and grow up into the character of Christ. I mean, it's worked that way for me. I'm way different now than I was when I first started posting in Christian forums 17 years ago. And that growth helps me to tolerate and understand people who have yet to be trained by the battles of our various theological discussions. But don't get me wrong. There's a time to just walk away.

I love this, quoting scripture and the exegesis, not eisegesis, is looked upon as "theology"...the word theology is not found in scripture, but doctrine...how many times does the word "doctrine" appear in the scriptures friend?
One, two x?

Well, I wouldn't go that far. Not right off the bat anyway. God is able to use our differences to expose underlying sin so we can deal with it and grow up into the character of Christ. I mean, it's worked that way for me. I'm way different now than I was when I first started posting in Christian forums 17 years ago. And that growth helps me to tolerate and understand people who have yet to be trained by the battles of our various theological discussions. But don't get me wrong. There's a time to just walk away.

...you mean, various heteros theologies?
And the word is nowhere to be found in scripture.
What you will find, more than a few, is the word "doctrine"


1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Is this John's theology or doctrine?


1 Corinthians 1:23



1) "But we preach Christ crucified." (Greek hemeis de kerussomen) "we, however, preach or proclaim" (Christon estauromenon) Christ or the Messiah as having been crucified." This was and is our witness of hope, Act_2:23; 1Co_2:2; 2Co_13:4; Gal_3:1; Rev_11:8.

2) "Unto the Jews a stumblingblock." (Greek ioudaiois men skandalon) to Jews on the one hand an offense or an occasion for stumbling." Such fulfilled the Scripture regarding their obstinate, willful rejection of the Saviour, Exo_17:6; 1Pe_2:8; Rom_9:32; Rom_9:32.

3) "And unto the Greeks foolishness." (Greek ethnesin de moriam) "To races or nations on the other hand folly, stupidity, or moronity." The races of humanity, depraved by inherent sin, are gnostics and agnostics by nature. God must take the initiative in their salvation to draw them to the cross. 1Co_1:18; 1Co_1:21; Eph_2:1-5; Act_10:43; Rom_1:14-16.

1 Corinthians 2:2



1) "For I determined." (Greek gar ekrina) "For I made a decision, judgment, or determined". Men's actions, as Christians and ministers of Christ, are of their own will, volition, choice or decision, not by compulsion.

2) "Not to know anything among you." (Greek ou ti eidenai) "Not to know or perceive anything." (Greek en humin) "Among you" . . . Paul determined not to present himself, his Greek, Hebrew, or Latin or philosophy as a basis of being known among the brethren. Act_20:18-27.

3) "Save Jesus Christ." (Greek ei me iesoun Christon) "If not or except Jesus Christ." This indicates Paul's sincere desire to present Jesus Christ, not himself or his own wisdom and person (Gal_6:14; 1Co_10:24).

4) "And him crucified." (Greek kai touton estauromenon) "And this one having been crucified." Gal_2:20; Tit_3:5; 1Co_1:17; 1Co_1:31.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.


1) "Brethren, if a man be overtaken," (adelphoi, ean kai prolemphthe anthropoa) "Brethren, if anyone is indeed overtaken;" The last verse protested against ill, unbrotherly tempers, while this appeals to brotherly love, even in spite of real wrong doing, when one is even overtaken, surprised, or detected in the act of wrongdoing.

2) "In a fault," (en tini paraptomati) "in some trespass," As Peter was, when in fear he impulsively cursed and denied the Lord, or Moses was overtaken when vexed by the people, he smote the rock, Num_20:11-13; Psa_78:20; Mat_26:69-75.

3) "Ye which are spiritual,"
I certainly will not allow any "iron" to sharpen me...
(humeis hoi pneumatikoi) "You who are spiritual ones", in heart and manner of life, more nearly Spiritually mature, 1Co_2:15; 1Co_3:1; Rom_14:1. Discipline of offenders against the church belongs to the church, but each member should exercise his voice and vote in kindness.

4) "Restore such an one in the spirit of meekness", (katortizete ton toiouton en pneumati prautetos) "Restore such a one in a spirit or attitude of meekness," understanding of compassionate nature, deal tenderly with such a person in a spirit of meekness. Bring such a person back to a state of recovery as a surgeon resets a bone or joint, Pro_28:5; Rom_15:1-2.

5) "Considering thyself," (skopon seauton) "Considering or looking over yourself," in a self-evaluating manner, a manner of honest self-judgment, of how you would want to be treated if overtaken impulsively in a wrong; consider your own weakness or liability to sin; lest you too might one day need a similar love and understanding, Jas_5:19-20; 2Th_3:14-15; Mat_7:12.

6) "Lest thou also be tempted," (me ka su peirasthes) "Lest thou art also tested," tempted, 1Co_10:12; Rom_11:20; Mat_6:13. This is why, daily one should pray, "lead us not" or "let us not be led into temptation or overtaken in evil, wrong, or sin this day."

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

1) "For if a man think himself to be something " (ei gar dokei tis einai ti) "For if anyone thinks (presumes) to be something," himself. If one is conceited, deluded, wholly trusts in the flesh of himself, Rom_12:3; 1Co_8:2; 2Co_3:5. Any sufficiency a child of God has is of Christ.

2) "When he is nothing," (meden on) "Yet, being nothing," not being one thing, apart from God's mercy and goodness, La 3:22; Act_17:28.

3) "He deceiveth himself," (phrenapata heauton) "He deceives or deludes himself;" not God, nor others, Gal_6:7; 1Jn_1:8; Even children of God, trusting in the flesh, may deceive themselves as Peter did, and all the disciples in denying the Lord, and fleeing in the time of his betrayal and persecution, Mat_26:35-36.

Someone has well written:

"Beware of Peter's words, nor confidentially say, never deny my Lord But trust / never may.

Hmm, theology, or doctrine?

 

[GEN2REV]

1) "Put on the whole armor of God"

(endusasthe ten panoplian tou theou) "Put, ye on the Penelope (whole armor suit) of God." It is as if Paul were negatively saying, "Don't go out undressed for warfare or to war." The armor is God's...not man's. Man is to dress up in it voluntarily to have (1) security, (2) comfort, and (3) victory in spiritual warfare. God's armor of warfare equipment is available, sufficient and offers all that is needed for every soldier of the cross, light, and truth. Armor unused is like clothes unworn, 1Th_5:8.

2) "That ye may be able to stand" (pros to dunasthai humas stenai) "So that ye are (all) able to stand," like battle-ready soldiers, Rom_13:12; 2Co_6:4; 2Co_6:7.

3) "Against the wiles of the devil" (pros tas methodias tou diabolou) "Against the craftiness, deceitful methods of the devil;" 2Co_2:11 teaches that Satan may get or take advantage of the Christian soldier who does not put on the armor God provides for him, 1Th_2:18; 2Th_2:9; 1Pe_5:8. The devil uses base, crafty, sneaky stratagems to entrap soldiers of Christ and to assault and destroy the influence of His church.


1) "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood" (hoti ouk estin hemin he pale pros haima kai sarka) "But your conflict or struggle is not against feeble flesh and blood." In addition to the armor of the soldier for battle, Paul used the term "pale" to indicate the hand to hand nature of encounter one has with the Devil, much as that of the struggle of wrestlers, Luk_13:34; Rom_7:22-23. "Not against flesh and blood" indicates our struggle is not merely against man, Heb_2:14.

2) "But against principalities" (alla pros tas archas) "But toward the rulers;" Not a wrestling, struggling with flesh and blood, so much as a fight with principalities or rulers, here used in the sense of powers of evil that are devil-inspired, Eph_1:21; Eph_2:2; Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Joh_16:30.

3) "Against powers" (pros tas ekousias) "Against or toward the authorities," evil order of angels or spirits, demons that influence and harm men, Luk_8:26-33; Act_19:11-18. Evil spirits are under chains of restraint on the extent to which they may harm man, by the permissive will of God. Their certain judgment is sealed, Jud_1:7.

4) "Against the rulers of darkness of this world" (pros tous kosmokratoras tou skotous toutou) "Against this world-order of rulers of darkness," 2Co_4:4. Their evil and dark enmity against God is to terminate in defeat of their head, the Devil, to whom they are slaves and serfs, Heb_2:14. These demons and spirit-rulers operate world-wide, universally.

5) "Against spiritual wickedness" (pros ta pneumatika tes ponerias) "Toward or against the spiritual retinue or hosts of wickedness," (we struggle). The term "spiritual wickedness" is used to indicate, by way of special emphasis, that this struggle is more than that against "flesh and blood." It indicates a band of "spirit pirates;" hosts, hordes, or armies of wicked characters.

6) "In high places" (en tois epouranios) "in the heavenlies," means super-earthly, not merely tied to the earth, but also operating in space super-terrestrial (above the earth) and sub-celestial (below the heaven) where Christ intercedes. The Christian soldier's struggle with Satan and sin is against an horde of hostile spiritual pirates of the soul who must be resisted, 1Pe_5:8-9.




...Christians, true born from above believers, are not to wrestle each other!
-

The problem isn't really with True Christians wrestling True Christians so much as all of the differing (mostly false) teachings contradicting each other.

I have said before that it would be so nice if all Christians agreed about the Truth of things, it would be amazing to always get along with fellow believers, but, unfortunately, that is not the case; and it is the one thing the enemy cannot allow.

We saw, in the Tower of Babel incident, how powerful man can be when we are united in mind, heart and deed. God basically said 'there's nothing they can't do if they're united as one.' The enemy knows all too well how true this is and cannot allow that to be. Therefore, he has flooded Christendom with false prophets, teachers, doctrines, etc.

So, in alignment with Scripture's guidance to test all spirits (teachers/teachings) against God's Word, we actually must, we are obligated as Jesus' representatives upon the earth to, speak up any time we encounter false teaching/beliefs concerning God and the Bible. If for no other reason, to learn and correct ourselves.

Jesus made plain that there would be many wolves that would come into the flocks after His ascension and that is exactly what we find today. They are everywhere, behind the pulpits, permeating the congregations; and I'd even go so far as to say that all of Christianity, churches and ministries everywhere, are actually led by these imposters. They are the leaders and the teachers today and, sadly, most Christians embrace their lax false doctrines as most today have itching ears seeking teachers that will teach what they want to hear and couldn't care less about sound Biblical Truth.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Is this John's theology or doctrine?

If you embrace it as a teaching it is a doctrine.
If you embrace it as a mindset it is a theology.

 

[Ziggy]

by Christians "wrestling" with each other, I mean bad mouth, slander, defamation of character etc, etc....which shows that they are not really Christians after all

Yeah, it gets rough sometimes.
My motto is: attack the post not the poster.
If you have a difference of opinion you should highlight the part you disagree with while keeping personal attacks "out of bounds"
Sometimes people just like arguing for the sake of arguing, never really wanting to listen or accomplish anything.
My dad is like that sometimes. He is 87 and he just enjoys being obstinate. And he twists things terribly.. lol
I just say, I love you, I'm not arguing with you. I go in another room for awhile. And by the time I come back out, it's on to the next thing.
Patience. This definately increases patience.
I can also take into consideration his age, how he is feeling, if the weather is bad his mood is grumpy.
But on a forum like this, it's really hard to tell where a person is coming from or struggling with.
All we see are the words.
anywho...
we should try to be more tolerant with each other in understanding and love, even if we ourselves are having a bad day.

Jesus says we must come to him as little children. Paul says quit ye and be like men.
There's a time of growing up in there. And a lot of us are still teenagers and young adults trying to find that solid ground of maturity.
Ha, and maybe you don't find it till your 88. lol
I'll let you know

Hugs

 

[Johann]

The problem isn't really with True Christians wrestling True Christians so much as all of the differing (mostly false) teachings contradicting each other.

I have said before that it would be so nice if all Christians agreed about the Truth of things, it would be amazing to always get along with fellow believers, but, unfortunately, that is not the case; and it is the one thing the enemy cannot allow.

We saw, in the Tower of Babel incident, how powerful man can be when we are united in mind, heart and deed. God basically said 'there's nothing they can't do if they're united as one.' The enemy knows all too well how true this is and cannot allow that to be. Therefore, he has flooded Christendom with false prophets, teachers, doctrines, etc.

So, in alignment with Scripture's guidance to test all spirits (teachers/teachings) against God's Word, we actually must, we are obligated as Jesus' representatives upon the earth to, speak up any time we encounter false teaching/beliefs concerning God and the Bible. If for no other reason, to learn and correct ourselves.

Jesus made plain that there would be many wolves that would come into the flocks after His ascension and that is exactly what we find today. They are everywhere, behind the pulpits, permeating the congregations; and I'd even go so far as to say that all of Christianity, churches and ministries everywhere, are actually led by these imposters. They are the leaders and the teachers today and, sadly, most Christians embrace their lax false doctrines as most today have itching ears seeking teachers that will teach what they want to hear and couldn't care less about sound Biblical Truth.

There is still the true ekklesia and somati of Christ, Genitive of possession...


Eph 2:1 God Has Brought Us from Death to Life
¶ You used to be dead because of your offenses and sins
Eph 2:2 that you once practiced as you lived according to the ways of this present world and according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now active in those who are disobedient. [Lit. the sons of disobedience]
Eph 2:3 Indeed, all of us once behaved like [Or lived among] them in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and senses. By nature we were destined for [Lit. were children of] wrath, just like everyone else.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love for us [Lit. love with which he loved us]
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with [Other mss. read in] the Messiah [Or Christ] (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavenly realm in the Messiah [Or Christ] Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might display the limitless riches of his grace that comes to us through his kindness in the Messiah [Or Christ] Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God
Eph 2:9 and not the result of actions, to put a stop to all boasting. [Lit. works, lest anyone boast]
Eph 2:10 For we are God’s [Lit. his] masterpiece, [Or workmanship] created in the Messiah [Or Christ] Jesus to perform good actions that God prepared long ago to be our way of life. [Lit. so that we might walk in them]

One in Christ
Eph 2:11 All Believers are One in the Messiah
¶ So then, remember that at one time you gentiles by birth [Lit. in the flesh] were called “the uncircumcised” by those who called themselves “the circumcised.” They underwent physical circumcision done by human hands.
Eph 2:12 At that time you were without the Messiah, [Or Christ] excluded from citizenship in Israel, [Or from the commonwealth of Israel] and strangers to the covenants of promise. You had no hope and were in the world without God.
Eph 2:13 But now, in union with the Messiah [Or Christ] Jesus, you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah. [Or Christ]

Eph 2:14 ¶ For it is he who is our peace. Through his mortality [Lit. flesh] he made both groups one by tearing down the wall of hostility that divided them. [Lit. the dividing wall of hostility]
Eph 2:15 He rendered the Law inoperative, along with its commandments and regulations, thus creating in himself one new humanity from the two, thereby making peace,
Eph 2:16 and reconciling both groups to God in one body through the cross, on which he eliminated the hostility.
Eph 2:17 He came and proclaimed peace for you who were far away and for you who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him, both of us [I.e. both Jews and gentiles] have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Eph 2:19 That is why you are no longer strangers and foreigners but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household,
Eph 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the Messiah [Or Christ] Jesus himself being the cornerstone. [Or capstone]
Eph 2:21 In union with him the whole building is joined together and rises into a holy sanctuary for the Lord.
Eph 2:22 You, too, are being built in him, along with the others, into a place for God’s Spirit to dwell.

1) "In whom all the building" (en ho pasa oikodome) "in ( centralized in) whom all (the) building or assembly" Let it be noted that the terms "household and building" refer not to a physical structure, but to an affinity of baptized believers in Jesus Christ, in joint fellowship with one another in Christ, to do His work, Mar_16:15; Joh_20:21.

2) "Fitly framed together" (sunarmologoumene) "Being fitted together." This indicated a state or condition of affinity of union in fellowship of the church members that constitute the assembly of worship and service. What Jesus Christ fits together, by the unity of His spirit, according to His word, is "fitly framed," assembled, or embodied, or built

3) "Groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord" (auksei eis naon hagion en kurio) "Grows into an holy shrine (temple), people, and place for holy worship and service, in the Master," see 1Co_3:16-17; 1Co_6:11. Every assembly, truly of the Lord, is a lively temple, a growing assembly, indwelt by the Holy Spirit in a special empowering way; Luk_24:49; Act_1:8; Act_2:1-4; 2Co_6:16. The church, or temple, or assembly of Christ on earth is a living imperfect organism, yet sanctified, set apart by Jesus Christ for divine worship and service. Her members are to seek always to live separated, sanctified lives that the Holy Spirit be not grieved, Gal_5:25; Eph_4:30-32.

Who is the ekklesia?
And who is the body of Messiah?

 

[Ziggy]

There is still the true ekklesia and somati of Christ, Genitive of possession...

These words are too big for me.
I'm still trying to figure out what exegesis and strawmen are.. lol
Just a simple mind here.
Hugs

 

[Johann]

These words are too big for me.
I'm still trying to figure out what exegesis and strawmen are.. lol
Just a simple mind here.
Hugs

Nothing wrong with that Ziggy, stay strong in Christ Jesus

 

[Ziggy]

Ekklesia = church
We are his body and members in particular.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Not because of ones nationality, but because of the same faith we have in Christ.
There is neither Jew not Gentile...

I believe Jesus is both Jew and Gentile. I believe he is both Ishmael and Isaac. I can explain what I mean but it usually ends up going sideways.
Because God is all and in all and always was and always will be.
But we read that Jesus was born a Jew, born under the law. And Jesus we come to by Faith not by law.
And yet Ishmael was also a son of Abraham. I don't believe God cast them off forever. He came to seek that which was lost.

Which begs the question.. Is God a Gentile or a Jew?
So the Ekklesia or church is the fulness of Christ, all those who come by faith and not by sight. Whether they be Cain or Abel. Ishmael or Isaac. Esau or Jacob.

Hold on while I get my shield, I feel those darts making ready.. LOL

Hugs

 

[Johann]

Ekklesia = church
We are his body and members in particular.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Not because of ones nationality, but because of the same faith we have in Christ.
There is neither Jew not Gentile...

I believe Jesus is both Jew and Gentile. I believe he is both Ishmael and Isaac. I can explain what I mean but it usually ends up going sideways.
Because God is all and in all and always was and always will be.
But we read that Jesus was born a Jew, born under the law. And Jesus we come to by Faith not by law.
And yet Ishmael was also a son of Abraham. I don't believe God cast them off forever. He came to seek that which was lost.

Which begs the question.. Is God a Gentile or a Jew?
So the Ekklesia or church is the fulness of Christ, all those who come by faith and not by sight. Whether they be Cain or Abel. Ishmael or Isaac. Esau or Jacob.

Hold on while I get my shield, I feel those darts making ready.. LOL

Hugs

No darts Ziggi, tell me, how do you understand the doctrine of election?
Are you a ferocious reader, or do you read in a superficial manner?

As to my armour, my helmet is dented, shield fell apart in two, lost my one shoe...ever read Pilgrims Progress?

 

[Ziggy]

No darts Ziggi, tell me, how do you understand the doctrine of election?
Are you a ferocious reader, or do you read in a superficial manner?

As to my armour, my helmet is dented, shield fell apart in two, lost my one shoe...ever read Pilgrims Progress?

So the first thing I do with this question is I go to the bible and look up the word "election"
I find all the verses that relate to this word, and I try to keep it in context.
I enjoy word searches. And I dig deep into the words themselves. So I'm not sure if you consider this ferocious or superficial.
I find when I dig deep into a word it sticks in my mind. And when someone brings up a subject, all those place where I found that word are refreshed.
A lot of people say I mix apples and oranges but it all rhymes to me, and how I understand it.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Then there is Judas:
Jhn 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

I believe God chose Abraham and his seed to bring us to grace through faith.
I believe God chose Israel to bring the knowledge of God to the world.

God has made his elections according to his purpose. And that purpose is that none should perish but all should come to repentance.
And some are by special election like Judas in order to fulfill the plan.
Many are called but few are chosen. To me then, those that are called are just as "secure" in their salvation as those that are chosen for a special purpose. Like Paul, was a chosen vessel to go and preach to those that were called.

In Romans Paul is talking to his kinsmen, Israelites. Telling them God hasn't cast you off completely.
I gave you a job to do, you did what I needed you to do. The same stands with the Gentiles. They were given a job to do and they did what they had to do.
But as far as "election" goes, I would put it in the catagory or, chosen for a specific calling.
Israel was specially elected to be a light unto the world. They had the law. And the law was good. And they were to be a witness for God while they went through all the gentile nations. But ultimately the plan was to prove to man, that without faith and without God as the head, we can't do it.
They kept getting sidetracked. That's human nature. And that is why God "elected" them specifically.
They didn't do it wrong, they just did what the flesh does. And they were a witness to the flesh.
Jesus came and he chose Judas to show us how far human nature was willing to fall for their own greed.
Judas was a chosen vessel. Whether we like it or not, he did what he was created to do.

Paul who was Saul, a persecuter of the church, believing what he was doing was right in God's eyes. He also be came "elected" a chosen vessel to show us how God can change a man from walking in the dark to walking in the light.

Are we all "elected" ? I don't think so. I believe God gives certain people specific paths they must walk whether for good or bad as examples.
I don't believe that means he loves them any more or any less than those who are simply called.
I believe he loves us all the same.

I have read Pilgrim's Progress many times. One of my favorites.

I hope this makes sense.
lol
Hugs