The Great Commandment

[bbyrd009]

There is only One Immortal, Who dwells in unapproachable light
What Does the Bible Say About Battle Is Already Won? (openbible.info)

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm well aware and I wasn't changing the subject, I was actually going deeper to the underlying source of your misunderstanding.

No, you're changing the subject to a different theological argument. There is no necessary OSAS belief that determines that a Christian is opposed to the idea of Sinless Perfection.

Denial of a Sin Nature is a pretty serious error in Christian Theology, even though Wesley's idea of Sanctification sounds very similar to this. I just happen to think that Wesley discovered that the New Nature in Christ is a higher level than battling one sin at a time without committing to a whole new nature.

Yes, I believe Jesus wants us to strive for perfection - just as He said. That's the reason He gave us His Spirit that He had primed by living a perfectly sinless life, obeying every one of the 10 Commandments.
John 15:10

That, however, was not the central question. We all agree that we should walk in the path of Christ's perfection. The question is, do you think you can at any time be sinless?

Yes, I believe we have an enduring sin nature.

There, you've answered the question already. You believe we have an enduring sin nature, and that is correct.

That is why we need that Spirit to help us to obey God's Commandments. You have to understand that He changes our hearts when we are given the Holy Spirit; He actually places the desire to obey within our hearts and writes the Commandments on our hearts so there is no misunderstanding on our part - no excuse. Of course we still stumble, but as I have stated repeatedly, it is NOT a stumble if one is not even attempting to walk upright; it is then habitual sin - sin that has been accepted and embraced. Very, very different.

Do you even realize that I've been saying this myself? We're completely in agreement on this thus far!

That brings us to OSAS/Eternal Security. You believe, as you stated, that perfection is simply the decision to come to Christ. Correct? That's almost exactly what you stated. And your implication there is that once somebody makes the decision to come to Christ, and be saved, that's it. They're saved. No more possibility whatsoever of being lost. In that view, there is no need to obey anything. No need to strive for anything. Do you see the contrast there?

Yes, I see where you're coming from, and I didn't go nearly that far in my arguments, nor is it necessary, since many Arminians believe that they struggle with a Sin Nature and still can choose for Christ's righteousness simultaneously.

Whether someone who chooses for Christ is saved and can lose that salvation is a question for another thread. It is not my argument here.

But I appreciate the fact you've laid out points that I agree are biblical. Thanks for that.

You see, you also oppose the idea of Sinless Perfection, and you apparently don't have any axes to grind over OSAS? So why even bring it up?

 

[GEN2REV]

No, you're changing the subject to a different theological argument. There is no necessary OSAS belief that determines that a Christian is opposed to the idea of Sinless Perfection.

OSAS and Sinless Perfection are two extreme polarities that purposely dodge the concept of obeying the Commandments via the Holy Spirit - which is somewhat of a middle ground between the two and is Biblically accurate.

That, however, was not the central question. We all agree that we should walk in the path of Christ's perfection. The question is, do you think you can at any time be sinless?

It doesn't matter if we can ever be 100% sinless. That is a False Argument that nobody ever proposes in these debates. It is an argument that you, and others, bring forth to argue against a position that doesn't exist in the debate at all.

What matters is that we strive, each and every day, to obey all of the 10 Commandments. That is our duty as mankind. Ecclesiastes 12:13 We cannot obey them all perfectly 100% of the time, that is why Jesus/God sends us the Holy Spirit to help us to do so as often as we can. In the long run, we become more proficient and, as has been proven by others in Scripture, we can become close enough to perfection that God approves greatly of our conviction and commitment to obeying Him.

Nobody achieves that who believes we shouldn't even try.

Whether someone who chooses for Christ is saved and can lose that salvation is a question for another thread. It is not my argument here.

Maybe not, but it is absolutely pertinent to the discussion, you just don't want it brought to light because it shows the weak point of your position. If you are OSAS, then by definition, you cannot allow yourself to see any point in obeying Commandments because it completely contradicts that perspective. You cannot be OSAS and agree that there is any significance in obeying Commandments because that correctly implies that there would be consequences if you do not. The two cannot exist together in a stable personal dogma.

You see, you also oppose the idea of Sinless Perfection, and you apparently don't have any axes to grind over OSAS? So why even bring it up?

I don't subscribe to one facet of OSAS in the least. It is completely unbiblical. It contradicts large portions of the foundation of Scriptural Truth, one of which we are discussing in this thread - that of obeying the 10 Commandments.

 

[Randy Kluth]

OSAS and Sinless Perfection are two extreme polarities that purposely dodge the concept of obeying the Commandments via the Holy Spirit - which is somewhat of a middle ground between the two and is Biblically accurate.

You brought up OSAS--I didn't. It doesn't need to be part of this discussion. Whatever my position on OSAS, I haven't argued a thing about obeying the Commandments via the Holy Spirit. So I don't know why you bring up OSAS?

It doesn't matter if we can ever be 100% sinless. That is a False Argument that nobody ever proposes in these debates. It is an argument that you, and others, bring forth to argue against a position that doesn't exist in the debate at all.

Not only does the subject of 100% sinless come up in these debates, but these ideas are in fact proposed at times. It is an important matter, and it should be addressed, rather than marginalized. The Apostle John addressed the issue directly when he said Christians should not claim to be without sin (1 John 1).

What matters is that we strive, each and every day, to obey all of the 10 Commandments.

It depends on what you mean by "obeying the 10 Commandments?" Technically, the 10 Commandments were a subset of the Law of Moses, which we are not under.

But if you mean that we should strive to follow the moral principles contained in the 10 Commandments, yes--all Christians would agree with this.

That is our duty as mankind. Ecclesiastes 12:13 We cannot obey them all perfectly 100% of the time, that is why Jesus/God sends us the Holy Spirit to help us to do so as often as we can. In the long run, we become more proficient and, as has been proven by others in Scripture, we can become close enough to perfection that God approves greatly of our conviction and commitment to obeying Him.

Yes, I completely agree. But the point was, What did Jesus mean when he exhorted the Jewish believers to "be perfect?" Remember that at that time he was speaking to his Disciples while they were *still under the Law of Moses.* And nobody should suggest that anybody was "perfect" under the Law of Moses, since the whole design of that system was a recognition of the need to deal with human sin!

So none of what I've said has a thing to do with discouraging Christians from "following the 10 Commandments." Rather, it has to do with explaining what Jesus meant by "be perfect." He was calling his Disciples to choose a better way under the Law, one that he was calling a "perfect" way. To "be perfect" was to be in conformity with the better way, the "perfect" way. And to do this, all you need to do is follow Jesus--not be sinless.

Maybe not, but it is absolutely pertinent to the discussion, you just don't want it brought to light because it shows the weak point of your position.

You are raising issues that I haven't even brought up. So how can you know that I'm trying to escape from things I haven't even mentioned? I'm certainly not dodging anything, from my vantage point. You sound like you're barking up the wrong tree?

If you are OSAS, then by definition, you cannot allow yourself to see any point in obeying Commandments because it completely contradicts that perspective. You cannot be OSAS and agree that there is any significance in obeying Commandments because that correctly implies that there would be consequences if you do not. The two cannot exist together in a stable personal dogma.
I don't subscribe to one facet of OSAS in the least. It is completely unbiblical. It contradicts large portions of the foundation of Scriptural Truth, one of which we are discussing in this thread - that of obeying the 10 Commandments.

Sounds like you're barking up the wrong tree? I didn't raise the issue of OSAS, and nothing of what you said was my argument. So I don't know what you're protesting? It sounds as if this is simply a favorite issue of yours that you wish to insert into random conversations?

 

[GEN2REV]

Sounds like you're barking up the wrong tree? I didn't raise the issue of OSAS, and nothing of what you said was my argument. So I don't know what you're protesting? It sounds as if this is simply a favorite issue of yours that you wish to insert into random conversations?

Nope. As I said, it is an underlying foundation of the rejection of obeying the 10 Commandments literally. Therefore exposing that as your position reveals your inability (refusal) to accept the concept of obeying the Commandments.

And what Jesus meant was to do just as He was doing - obeying the 10 Commandments literally. That is what is expected of us despite all the nonsense about Jew/non-Jew and under law and OT this and that. All hog wash. Jesus, Himself, made clear that He expected it of us and so does John.
John 15:10
1 John 2:6

It's no surprise that you are not going to follow the natural flow of the conversation because you are dodging certain elements brought forth, so there is no need for me to continue. Those who are capable of learning and understanding what I am saying have plenty to go on at this point.

 

[Heart2Soul]

[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment. Matthew 22:37-38 RSV

So how does one “love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind”?

The word perfect is

[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment. Matthew 22:37-38 RSV

So how does one “love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind”?

The Greek word teleios was translated as perfect....and that same word is used in other passages and is translated as mature...
Definition:
Teleios is defined this way:

(a) complete in all its parts,
(b) full grown, of full age,
(c) especially of the completeness of Christian character.

What is the Greek word for perfect in the Bible?

Going even further, Greek philosophers used the word teleios (which is translated “perfect”) in regards to something being in it’s intended function.

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
— Philippians 1:6 (KJV)
What Jesus us saying is you will be made perfect when He returns and then we will put off the corruptible and put on the incorruptible.
Anytime there is a Greek word translated into different versions of English it needs to be studied thoroughly to get the right interpretation.

TheologySalvationSanctification

When Jesus says, "Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect," does that mean we can attain perfection, and should we?

R.C. Sproul


There are a couple of things we need to understand about this statement. In the first place, the word that is translated “perfect” literally means “be complete.” So often, the New Testament and the Old Testament will describe people as being upright and righteous—not in the sense that they have achieved total moral perfection, but rather that they have reached a singular level of maturity in their growth in terms of spiritual integrity.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nope. As I said, it is an underlying foundation of the rejection of obeying the 10 Commandments literally. Therefore exposing that as your position reveals your inability (refusal) to accept the concept of obeying the Commandments.

Not at all. It isn't an underlying foundation of my argument at all. My argument is based on 1 John 1, as well as the purpose of the Law as explained by Paul to be a means of exposing the need to deal with human sin.

As for your claim that I refuse to accept the concept of obeying the Commandments, you're boggling my mind. I just said I agree that we, as Christians, should all obey the 10 Commandments in the sense that they represent NT concepts of Moral Law.

We are not, however, under the Law of Moses, and as such are not technically under the 10 Commandments either, including its requirement to obey Sabbath Law. If you're trying to promote Sabbath Law, then you're a legalist. Paul said we are justified not by the Law of Moses, but rather, by what it represented, namely, Christ's work of atoning for our sins.

And what Jesus meant was to do just as He was doing - obeying the 10 Commandments literally. That is what is expected of us despite all the nonsense about Jew/non-Jew and under law and OT this and that. All hog wash. Jesus, Himself, made clear that He expected it of us and so does John.
John 15:10
1 John 2:6

The Jew/non-Jew issue, which is related to the under Law/not under Law issue is critically important in Paul's writings. Since the NT Bible made the issue critically important, who are you to try to marginalize the issue?

Jesus said he had 2 aspects to his Rule, one OT and one NT. He said he had a New Commandment, which implied that there was an Old Commandment. The Old Commandment was the Law, which Jesus saw as passing away at his death. And so, he established, while still under the Law, a New Commandment to perpetuate God's Moral Law beyond the grave.

When Jesus required the New Commandment of his Disciples while they were still under the Law of Moses, he required of them the Old Commandment of the Law of Moses, as well. You can see that here...

Mat 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

As you can see, Jesus required both conformity to his word, which extends beyond the Law, as well as to the Law of Moses while that remained in effect. None of that has any bearing on what he meant by "be perfect."

The central issue for me consisted of the 2 facts I mentioned earlier.
1) We are to focus on God's word, which is perfect, which can give us "perfect standing."
2) We are never to claim to be sinless while in these mortal bodies. We are to "overcome sin," and never to try to completely expunge sin from our bodies and spirits. That comes at the resurrection.

Your insistence on bringing up OSAS is clearly an obsession of yours, since many either pro or con that position hold to the same position I do. You're clearly argumentative.

It's no surprise that you are not going to follow the natural flow of the conversation because you are dodging certain elements brought forth, so there is no need for me to continue. Those who are capable of learning and understanding what I am saying have plenty to go on at this point.

You seem to be a trouble-maker, inasmuch as you bring up OSAS into a conversation to accuse me of things I never said. And you insist on arguing it. Paul recommended avoiding trouble makers like you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The word perfect is

The Greek word teleios was translated as perfect....and that same word is used in other passages and is translated as mature...
Definition:
Teleios is defined this way:

(a) complete in all its parts,
(b) full grown, of full age,
(c) especially of the completeness of Christian character.

What is the Greek word for perfect in the Bible?

Going even further, Greek philosophers used the word teleios (which is translated “perfect”) in regards to something being in it’s intended function.

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
— Philippians 1:6 (KJV)
What Jesus us saying is you will be made perfect when He returns and then we will put off the corruptible and put on the incorruptible.
Anytime there is a Greek word translated into different versions of English it needs to be studied thoroughly to get the right interpretation.

TheologySalvationSanctification

When Jesus says, "Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect," does that mean we can attain perfection, and should we?

R.C. Sproul


There are a couple of things we need to understand about this statement. In the first place, the word that is translated “perfect” literally means “be complete.” So often, the New Testament and the Old Testament will describe people as being upright and righteous—not in the sense that they have achieved total moral perfection, but rather that they have reached a singular level of maturity in their growth in terms of spiritual integrity.

I very much agree with you! Jesus is referring to a kind of maturity that takes seriously all of what God's word means, as opposed to trying to get around the gist of what God's word meant. The Pharisees, for example, tried to work around the straight forward meaning of the Law to explain it away, or rationalize some perverted interpretation of it.

To "be perfect" is to take God's word seriously, and to literally *do* what is being asked of a person. Or, it is to "be mature," as you indicated.

It may even refer to adopting the system whole cloth, to enter into a covenant relationship. For example, for a person to treat a marital relationship properly, a person should be completely faithful to his or her spouse, not cheating on him or her.

This would not have to imply that a person never thinks a lustful or adulterous thought. But to be "perfect" implies that a person chooses to never cheat, and always attempts to overcome tempting, lustful thoughts.

To be "perfect," therefore, indicates our putting on the right attitude, as opposed to any effort to be sinless and perfect in that sense. To choose to "be perfect" is to choose to do the right thing, not just occasionally, but all the time.

Mat 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Bob Estey]

I think there is a semantics difficulty in the things we're saying. We're both agreed that Jesus wants us to be perfect by living in his righteousness. And we're both agreed that we have a Sin Nature? If so, the question becomes, How can one live in the perfection of Christ while still having a Sin Nature? What is the evidence of the Sin Nature while we are in obedience to Christ?

The fact is, we can do right in Christ, even as we feel a compulsion to turn to the right or to the left, towards our own desires or to temptations from without. This is just a fact of life. If we have the Sin Nature, as we both agree we do, then every moment of time we have that sin compulsion, and even the smallest amount of selfishness, even as we obey Christ and do right.

So the proof that you sin everyday isn't a matter of proposing that you commit some high crime every day. It is the evidence of selfishness in your life *at all times,* even as you choose to follow Christ ahead of your Sin Instincts, or Sin tendencies.

I'm not sure we see eye to eye regarding the sin nature. I think that when we sin, we create a desire to sin more - it's sort of an addiction. To make the addiction go away, we need to resist the temptation to sin. I think the desire to sin will fade away in time.

 

[Bob Estey]

The word perfect is

The Greek word teleios was translated as perfect....and that same word is used in other passages and is translated as mature...
Definition:
Teleios is defined this way:

(a) complete in all its parts,
(b) full grown, of full age,
(c) especially of the completeness of Christian character.

What is the Greek word for perfect in the Bible?

Going even further, Greek philosophers used the word teleios (which is translated “perfect”) in regards to something being in it’s intended function.

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
— Philippians 1:6 (KJV)
What Jesus us saying is you will be made perfect when He returns and then we will put off the corruptible and put on the incorruptible.
Anytime there is a Greek word translated into different versions of English it needs to be studied thoroughly to get the right interpretation.

TheologySalvationSanctification

When Jesus says, "Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect," does that mean we can attain perfection, and should we?

R.C. Sproul


There are a couple of things we need to understand about this statement. In the first place, the word that is translated “perfect” literally means “be complete.” So often, the New Testament and the Old Testament will describe people as being upright and righteous—not in the sense that they have achieved total moral perfection, but rather that they have reached a singular level of maturity in their growth in terms of spiritual integrity.

My Bible quotes Jesus as saying we need to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. It seems easiest to me just to obey the commandments. I don't always succeed, but whenever I fail, I realize quickly I don't like a life of sin.

 

[Heart2Soul]

My Bible quotes Jesus as saying we need to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. It seems easiest to me just to obey the commandments. I don't always succeed, but whenever I fail, I realize quickly I don't like a life of sin.

Yes in some places the Greek word is translated as perfect and others it is translated as mature or complete.
Jesus would never say something impossible for us to achieve what only He could do.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm not sure we see eye to eye regarding the sin nature. I think that when we sin, we create a desire to sin more - it's sort of an addiction. To make the addiction go away, we need to resist the temptation to sin. I think the desire to sin will fade away in time.

Yea, we definitely see things a little differently, but not prohibitively so. I don't see you as argumentative as Gen, but I have to be honest about it.

Where do we agree? I agree that conscious choice to indulge in sin is addictive and dangerous. For example, a little indulgence in porn can lead to Ted Bundy, a murderous rapist. He started in porn, by his own admission.

So yes, we agree--sin is dangerous and possibly addicting. But the key here is--are we *choosing* to indulge in it, or it this simply a product of our sin nature?

As I said, I believe we are born in sin, and have the sin inclination from birth and whenever we awake from sleep. It is not a conscious choice until we see the inclination and choose to indulge it.

Nevertheless, just having this sin nature causes us to slip into small degrees of sin, inviting jealousy, envy, rage, lust, and a whole range of small sins that can become greater sins if we don't nip them in the bud.

The temptations to sin can be ameliorated to a high degree in some circumstances. For example, if you indulge yourself in light porn, you are likely to infect your mind with greater temptations to sin. If you indulge yourself in hostility and criticalness towards others, you are likely to be tempted to harbor a secret rage until it comes out in greater ways.

We can reduce these temptations simply by reducing our exposure to them. We can stop reading certain materials, or watching certain TV shoes, or fellowshipping with certain people. If they are "bad news," and not good for our Christian attitude, then we need to reduce these sources of temptation. In that way, our minds can have less temptation, but never zero temptation.

For example, I years ago used to enjoy horror flicks, but began to have severe demonic nightmares. I had to stop watching the most gruesome movies, and this seriously reduced the nightmares to the point I almost never have them. I can't remember the last one I had!

But the Sin Nature is not erasable from our minds, because it is a nature we were born with, due to what our forebears did. Humanity was cast into a new mold of autonomy when Adam and Eve sinned. We were born, knowing good and evil, with the evil itself already ingested.

So our duty today is to reduce the temptations, and to overcome them whenever they attack us. In this sense we are to "be perfect," ie fight every evil inclination.

In other words, to "be perfect" is an exhortation to pursue a perfect standard of behavior. It is not, however, an effort to expunge sin from our nature, nor an effort to be without a sin nature.

 

[Randy Kluth]

My Bible quotes Jesus as saying we need to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. It seems easiest to me just to obey the commandments. I don't always succeed, but whenever I fail, I realize quickly I don't like a life of sin.

Your appear to misunderstand what Jesus is saying, although I agree we should literally follow what Jesus says. Remember, he was saying this to his Disciples while they were still under the Law. And nobody should claim, if they are Christians, that anybody can be sinless under the Law!

So again, brother, what Jesus is saying is to adopt a standard of perfection--not be sinless. He is saying that we should *be* people who aim for a perfect standard, as opposed to trying to get around God's Moral Law. To "be perfect" is to be a person who aims for perfection--not being a person who *is* perfect!

Do you understand? Jesus exhortation you're misconstruing as a call by Jesus for us to *be sinless.* But the same words can be used for calling a person to *aim for perfection,* as opposed to being a person who tries to get around the requirements of God's Moral Law.

Actually, I think you've been trying to say the same thing without realizing it?

 

[GEN2REV]

The word perfect is

The Greek word teleios was translated as perfect....and that same word is used in other passages and is translated as mature...
Definition:
Teleios is defined this way:

(a) complete in all its parts,
(b) full grown, of full age,
(c) especially of the completeness of Christian character.

What is the Greek word for perfect in the Bible?

Going even further, Greek philosophers used the word teleios (which is translated “perfect”) in regards to something being in it’s intended function.

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
— Philippians 1:6 (KJV)
What Jesus us saying is you will be made perfect when He returns and then we will put off the corruptible and put on the incorruptible.
Anytime there is a Greek word translated into different versions of English it needs to be studied thoroughly to get the right interpretation.

TheologySalvationSanctification

When Jesus says, "Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect," does that mean we can attain perfection, and should we?

R.C. Sproul


There are a couple of things we need to understand about this statement. In the first place, the word that is translated “perfect” literally means “be complete.” So often, the New Testament and the Old Testament will describe people as being upright and righteous—not in the sense that they have achieved total moral perfection, but rather that they have reached a singular level of maturity in their growth in terms of spiritual integrity.

Would it really make all that much difference, though?

Even if we removed the word entirely, we would still have an undebatable command from Jesus to emulate God Almighty; His holiness and separateness from all things evil or corrupt. No deceit, no rebellion from the ways God set forth as His Ways.

"Be as your Father in heaven is."

The 10 Commandments are God's template for how to be like Him in thought, word and deed.

 

[GEN2REV]

You seem to be a trouble-maker, inasmuch as you bring up OSAS into a conversation to accuse me of things I never said. And you insist on arguing it. Paul recommended avoiding trouble makers like you.

No, I'm just speaking the Truth that you don't want spoken right now because it exposes your true intentions. It derails your argument entirely.

And, besides the fact that you are making patently unbiblical claims about Jesus "seeing the 10 Commandments passing away at His death", you are just another hypocrite.

Here's why and how:

You repeatedly claim that the 10 Commandments should not be obeyed literally, however you choose to say that in this or the next post, that only their moral implication should be obeyed, while you yourself obey NINE of the Ten on a regular basis, and expect all real Christians to do the same.

So, basically, nothing that you have to present here holds a single drop of water.

You admit you are OSAS, but don't want to talk about that right now (despite its obvious relevance to the topic of obeying Commandments), while claiming that obedience to the Law literally accomplishes nothing because we are only supposed to obey the moral aspect while simultaneously being a keeper of nine of the ten Commandments.

You're a train wreck, but trying to pass yourself off as an authority on proper Christian doctrine.

Something's gotta give.

Are you honestly mistaken or have you stopped being honest?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, I'm just speaking the Truth that you don't want spoken right now because it exposes your true intentions. It derails your argument entirely.

No, brother, I have not been derailed on matters of OSAS, since you brought it up--not me. As I said, my arguments did not hinge on that belief, whatever position one holds to.

And, besides the fact that you are making patently unbiblical claims about Jesus "seeing the 10 Commandments passing away at His death", you are just another hypocrite.

Name-calling is not going to win any arguments. I said you are "argumentative," and a "trouble-maker" only because that's what you're doing. If you wish to stop it at any time, we can continue arguing respectfully? At this point, I'm not trying to help you in any way--just trying to help those who may happen to read this conversation. I have a stake in it.

The implication of Jesus' death for sin was that the Law could not remove the stain of sin. Therefore, it became meaningless on the cross because that legal system had failed to provide eternal redemption, and had never been intended by God to provide that.

The only conclusion one could draw, and the only conclusion drawn by the authors of the NT, is that Jesus died with the full knowledge that the system of Law would pass away with his death.

That doesn't make me a "hypocrite." Rather, it makes me a believer in Jesus' death for *all sin,* and that includes sins committed under the Law by the Jewish People. It was designed to show that for all mankind, the only thing that could bring final redemption to us all was by Christ's death, and not by any system of religious observance, depending on the record of fallen mankind.

Here's why and how:

You repeatedly claim that the 10 Commandments should not be obeyed literally, however you choose to say that in this or the next post, that only their moral implication should be obeyed, while you yourself obey NINE of the Ten on a regular basis, and expect all real Christians to do the same.

Well yes, that's what I believe. I believe God's Moral Law is eternal, having been established as such in the creation of Man when God said, "be created in my image and likeness." That instantly created for Man a moral obligation to follow God in His likeness and image.

This Moral Law, as I call it, preceded the Law of Moses, and continues after the Law of Moses stopped being of any worth. The Law stopped being of worth at any time that Israel failed under that Covenant. They were blessed only if they obeyed.

And if the whole nation failed to obey the Law, and completely fell into apostasy, then the Law would no longer have value in bringing blessing to the nation. Even if they paid lip service to religious devotion under the Law, and even if a few continued to faithfully obey the Law, apostasy by the nation led to a collapse of the system of Law.

They would lose their temple system, their priesthood, and their sacrifices, which were designed to keep them in good standing with God. They would lose their land, and seemingly their inheritance of Abraham's promises.

But we know that even with failure under the Law, Israel's standing with God could be restored. And full observance of the Law was restored in a time before Christ had come. Today, with Christ already having come, there is no need for Israel to return to the Law of Moses. But they are still obligated to follow the image of God, who is Christ.

So, basically, nothing that you have to present here holds a single drop of water.

This is a whole different subject, the subject of under the Law/not under the Law. I've given you my take on it. Believing we are under Sabbath Law is not NT doctrine. The burden is on you to disprove Paul's claim that we are in the New Testament--not the Old Testament!

You admit you are OSAS, but don't want to talk about that right now (despite its obvious relevance to the topic of obeying Commandments), while claiming that obedience to the Law literally accomplishes nothing because we are only supposed to obey the moral aspect while simultaneously being a keeper of nine of the ten Commandments.

Again, this is not an argument I raised, nor did I even say in this line of argument that I'm an OSAS, or that it matters in this argument. I hesitate to do so, not because I have an ounce of fear in doing so. I'm only avoiding it because it diverts the conversation away from the subject for some, when we could be perfectly capable of discussing it without digressing into something else.

But again, you're not interested. I'm just sharing this for any others who may be interested in Christian conversation.

 

[GEN2REV]

That instantly created for Man a moral obligation to follow God in His likeness and image.

This doesn't make a lick of sense and doesn't carry over to 1 John 2:6 in the least. Can you tell us how we are to walk as Jesus walked in His likeness and image???

I'm not being disrespectful in the least. Hypocrite is a general term for somebody who preaches something that they don't practice. You are speaking out against the keeping of the 10 Commandments literally, while keeping nine of them yourself. Literally.

Do you murder?
Do you rob?
Do you commit adultery?
Do you worship demons?
Etc.

Since the assumed answer is NO, you are being a hypocrite because you observe nine of the 10 Commandments yourself.

And stop saying you didn't present an argument. It makes no difference who presents an argument if it is relevant to the debate. It certainly doesn't become irrelevant just because YOU didn't bring it up.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This doesn't make a lick of sense and doesn't carry over to 1 John 2:6 in the least. Can you tell us how we are to walk as Jesus walked in His likeness and image???

To be honest, you sound like a legalist or a cultist, because those kinds of questions are their kinds of questions! I hope that's not where you are? The Apostle John said we are to walk as Jesus walked, not in the least suggesting that Gentile converts to Christianity should follow the Law of Moses!

Being like Christ is a spiritual gift. It is received when the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and we respond in repentance, requesting absolution from Him. There are principles involved, but they transcend the Law of Moses, since the Law is now passé.

To be "like Jesus," therefore, is a matter of being like God in the way God meant when He said He created us in His image and likeness. This means we have the same heart that God does, to follow His word.

Divine morality is expressed throughout the Law of Moses. If we strip away the things sinful Man had to do under the Law, temporarily, until Christ came, then you could see what God's Moral Law is and always has been.

It is loving God and loving your neighbor. It is being loving, as opposed to living autonomously, separate from God, and trying to be "loving" without Him.

I'm not being disrespectful in the least. Hypocrite is a general term for somebody who preaches something that they don't practice. You are speaking out against the keeping of the 10 Commandments literally, while keeping nine of them yourself. Literally.

As I said, I'm not keeping *any of the 10 Commandments* technically. Jesus fulfilled them for me, and then I choose to live through him. I obey the principles that I see reflected in His Spirit and in the gift of righteousness he has given to me.

The Sabbath Law has no bearing on non-Jews outside the land of Israel, nor on anybody in the NT era. And it was just a temporary observance by temporarily redeemed Israel until Christ brought them final redemption.

Sabbath observance has no further religious value in the NT era. It was only an expression of deference to God's holiness and sinlessness one day per week. As Christians, our redemptive standing allows us to stand with Christ in his own expression of God's holiness.

 

[GEN2REV]

To be honest, you sound like a legalist or a cultist, because those kinds of questions are their kinds of questions! I hope that's not where you are?

You guys gotta come up with some new material.

The Apostle John said we are to walk as Jesus walked, not in the least suggesting that Gentile converts to Christianity should follow the Law of Moses!

The 10 Commandments are not the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was placed on the outside of the Ark. The Law of God (10 Commands) was placed inside the Ark.

Study-up in the thread The 10 Commandments are FOREVER. Then you can better guide Christians on how we should conduct ourselves with respect to God and His Commandments.

... the Law of Moses, ... the Law is now passé.

Yes, it is - as it was a law of ordinances, washings and sacrifices, and Jesus brought that law to completion with His perfect sinless sacrifice. The Law of God is not passe. And never will be.

All of Jesus' disciples conducted themselves exactly as He did in His life upon the earth. From obeying all of the 10 Commandments to observing the Sabbath immediately after His death. None of what you're claiming aligns with any of that, easily proven, Biblical fact.

It is loving God and loving your neighbor.

And exactly how are we to love God and our neighbor? Did you think this was an oversight on God's part not to inform us exactly how He expects to be loved, and expects us to love our neighbor? Did you imagine He gave us carte blanche on just making it up as we go along, or that, as you say, He just wants us to be loving?

And how do we all do that the same exact way? Being loving means something different from one person to the next. The fact is He makes perfectly clear how He expects to be loved in the first 4 Commandments; while making clear our instructions for loving our fellow man with the final 6.

I'm not keeping *any of the 10 Commandments* technically.

Horse manure. You obey all but the Sabbath, literally and technically. You're being dishonest now and outright lies destroy your credibility even further.

 

[Bob Estey]

Yes in some places the Greek word is translated as perfect and others it is translated as mature or complete.
Jesus would never say something impossible for us to achieve what only He could do.

I've learned that sin brings trouble into my life, so I try not to sin.