Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Bible Highlighter]

um, no he was not. This is a sadly misrepresentation of pauls words.

He spoke of the struggle he and all of us (if we are honest with ourselves) struggle with.

He was set free from the penalty of sin and death (law)

but it does not mean he no longer struggles with his flesh..

I pray you do not think you no longer struggle..

Then what do you make of the verses in context that I brought up?
No thoughts on those verses?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You don't what a tzit-tzit is?

#1000+ - praise_yeshua
So you're not really wearing blue in the fringe of your garments? Why did you lie? Its seems like everyone wants to pretend they're better than someone else. .

Now we are getting somewhere......

Num 15:37 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:

I know what the Scriptures teach.

Judaism perverted the law God gave to them through Moses. Case in point, your use of "tzit-tzit"....

Do you use "tzit-tzit" with "Tallit"?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1. I am justified forever (eternal life, seal of there spirit, perfected forever)
2. I am being transformed (sanctified) as Gods work is ongoing, but will be completed, I am being sanctified by him who perfected me forever
3. I will be glorified.

Your mixing 1 and 2 and claiming final justification will nto happen unless WE complete number 2.

Thats exactly the type of legalism paul faught.

Eternal life is a person named Jesus Christ.
For Christ alone has immortality.

“…who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality…” (1 Timothy 6:15-16).

He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

How can we have an assurance that we know the Lord Jesus and thus have life (eternal life)?

1 John 2:3 basically says that we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find we are keeping His commandments.
1 John 2:4 basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.

What truth is not in them?
Jesus.
For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).
So if you are for the view that we “struggle with sin” every waking moment of our lives and we are carnal sold under sin according to Romans 7:14-24, then you are not for keeping God’s commandments that would align with 1 John 2:3-4.

 

[Taken]

. If you loved God...

Men show God their LOVE for Him, by laying down their LIFE FOR Him.

...twisting of Scripture used to justify disobedience.

And your demonstration of twisting what others say to your words to justify your accusations.

" Why would they need an instruction to continue what they had always done?

Jesus came to seek the Lost ring a bell?

Observing the days of other gods is "pollution of idols."

Every day is a day the Lord has made.
Any day one man esteems higher unto the Lord is acceptable to the Lord.

Christians gathered on the first day of the week (Which is a Sunday and not Saturday).

Men Believing in God, and men Believing in Jesus, and men Believing in Christ, and men Converted IN Christ....have been gathering together for centuries on any day of the week...in Churches, in Homes, in Halls, in Schools, at luncheons, at parks, etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Right, and the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command today. If you loved God, obeying him would be the desire of your heart. You might want to show your gratitude to God for sending his Son to die for you. 1 John 5:3.

Does God make a direct connection with "loving him" and "obeying him?"
Exodus 20:6, Deuteronomy 5:10, Deuteronomy 7:9, Deuteronomy 11:1, Deuteronomy 11:13, Deuteronomy 11:22, Deuteronomy 19:9, Deuteronomy 30:16. Joshua 22:5, Nehemiah 1:5, John 14:15, John 14:21, John 14:31, John 15:10, 1 John 5:2-3, 2 John 1:6, John 8:38.

Yeah, it looks that way.

This is obvious to anyone who reads Colossians 2:14-17. What is obvious is that you read one statement out of context, and therefore completely inverted the meaning of it. This is a wonderful example of the outrageous twisting of Scripture used to justify disobedience. Starting in verse 4, Paul is warning against the heathens and the philosophers intimidating the believers.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

"Don't let these heathens judge you because you eat kosher, are not a drunk, observe the feasts of YHVH, observe HIS lunar calendar AND his Sabbaths. These are all prophetic shadows of the Messiah."

The renamed pagan holidays ARE NOT shadows of the Messiah. So, this verse means THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you have been taught. Jeremiah 16:19

We are not to let others judge us in regards to whether or not we keep the Sabbaths or holy days, or dietary laws, etcetera. There are no commands given to us by Jesus and His followers to keep the Sabbath.
Keeping the Sabbath was what they always did. Why would they need an instruction to continue what they had always done?

There are no breaking of the Sabbath listed as a sin among the other lists of sins mentioned by the followers of Jesus Christ. The Sabbath was a given. It is what separated God's people form everyone else. Observing the days of other gods is "pollution of idols." That is what the Law instructs us to avoid.

Christians gathered on the first day of the week (Which is a Sunday and not Saturday). No doubt this was to commemorate their discovery of His resurrection. Show me the one incident where you think that happened, and I will show you 6 more that dispute it.

I am not going to endlessly argue with you in your keeping of the Old Law.

Titus 3:9
“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”

For a quick handy reference for any truth seeker: There is no Sabbath command in the New Testament, and there are no Sabbath breaking sin listed among other kinds of sins by the apostle Paul and others. Colossians 2:16 is clear in what it says. We are not to let others judge us on whether or not we keep the Sabbath. In fact, there are Ebionite Christians who reject the words of Paul because they know full well what he is saying. Then there are tons of verses that say that the Old Law is no more, as well. Any student of God’s Word will discover this in time for themselves by intense study of God’s Word by the leading of the Spirit.

 

[Happy Trails]

I am part of the abrahamic covenant - In you shall all the nations be blessed. Where there is no jew, gentile male female etc etc.

The sabbath was given to Israel.

There are no Gentiles in the new covenant.

You are either in the House of Israel or the House of Judah.

Those are the two people groups that are listed as the members of the new covenant.

I hear people say things like, "there is no commandment for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath."

There is also NO commandment to let the Gentiles be part of the new covenant.

 

[Happy Trails]

Seems you being from OK, has confused you into thinking yourself qualified to think and speak for others.

* Reality check...you are not qualified to think or speak for me.

How wonderfully elitist of you to comment about my location as a qualification. You must be from some really special place, where everyone you know is much more important than the people you look down on.

I said, “You feel the Law never applied to you and you see nothing good in it.”

You said:
Christ DID NOT redeem “US” Gentiles from the curse of the law.
The Curse of the Mosaic Law, never applied to Gentiles.

Christ DID redeem “ISRAEL” from the curse of “THEIR” law...
AND God DID through Christ “Offer” FORGIVENESS...
AND.....SALVATION NOW, once and forever....


The Bible says:
Deuteronomy 31:12
The strangers that lived among Israel were told to obey the Law.

More:
Exodus 12:48-49
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exodus 23:12
Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

Those who were NOT Israel were held to the same behavior. The behavior of the people groups outside of the camp of Israel was to honor pagan gods. YHVH wanted none of that among his people. The people that live among YHVH's people should not do things that respect other gods.

 

[Happy Trails]

Now we are getting somewhere......

Num 15:37 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:

I know what the Scriptures teach.

Judaism perverted the law God gave to them through Moses. Case in point, your use of "tzit-tzit"....

Do you use "tzit-tzit" with "Tallit"?

Explain how Judaism perverted the Law regarding blue ribbands.

 

[praise_yeshua]

“Still” implies you have evidence of your claim...that you render with a charge...of false.
Why fail to verify your claim?
Quote me regarding your claim.

All of your posts make the argument that you do not feel any obligation to obey the Torah. You feel that the Law never applied to you and that you see nothing good in it.

Your entire position is founded on antinomianism.

That would be justifying disobedience.[/QUOTE]

Like I've told you before. You do not keep the Torah. You keep your religions view of the Torah. Huge difference.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Explain how Judaism perverted the Law regarding blue ribbands.

Did you read the verses I posted?

Your traditions do not meet the requirements of those Scriptures. You know they don't.

 

[Titus]

No, the doctrine of Sola Fide is that ~ as Scripture says ~ we receive salvation ~ are justified by God ~ apart from and regardless of works or any merit thereof. But good works ~ and obedience ~ are the natural result of, and therefore validation regarding the gift of salvation and faith. If there are no good works, then there can be no faith, because true saving faith would inevitably and invariably produce and result in good works. And this is what James is saying in chapter 2 of his epistle. Much like there can be no thunder without lightning, there can be no good works or real obedience in faith without faith, and therefore it's an inert, ineffectual ~ dead ~ faith and certainly not the living faith given by God. But inevitably, when there is lightning, there will be thunder (however slight). Likewise, again, if there is this living faith borne in us by God, good works and obedience will inevitably follow, without fail, because of the work of God in us.


Regarding faith, John Calvin never argued that we are justified by faith, but that we are justified through faith. And as I said above, obedience inevitably follows. As Ezekiel says, God gives us a new heart, and a new spirit He puts within us. He removes the heart of stone from our flesh and gives us a heart of flesh. And He puts His Spirit within us, and causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules (36:26-27).

Grace and peace to you.

Many that follow the doctrine of sola fide teach faith is not a work.

The Bible teaches faith is a work, a work of God, John 6:28-29.
Therefore faith only and no works salvation is proven false.

It is impossible to be saved without works.

No, the doctrine of Sola Fide is that ~ as Scripture says ~ we receive salvation

Calvinist teach salvation is BEFORE faith in Christ. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ,
Romans 10:17. Faith only comes by hearing the gospel not by miraculous direct operation of the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism teaches faith is not something man does.
It is only something God does to us, miraculously. This is not Jesus' gospel.
If we have not the ability to believe, then God is at fault for every person who does not believe.
Calvinism makes God guilty for all of the unbelievers.

are justified by God ~ apart from and regardless of works or any merit thereof

from and regardless of works or any merit thereof. But good works ~ and obedience ~ are the natural result of, and therefore validation regarding the gift of salvation

You have contradicted your doctrine of Sola fide.


Calvinism teaches as Pinseeker just did.
That, salvation is apart from works,

The contradiction is, Calvanist's teach faith itself is a work, John 6:28-29.
This is more double talk.
Faith is a work according to Scripture. John 6:28-29.
Therefore calvinism's teaching that faith is a work proves sola fide false.

But good works ~ and obedience ~ are the natural result of, and therefore validation regarding the gift of salvation and faith

This is another contradiction in Pinseekers doctrine.

Since works validates true faith.
Faith without validation is faith without any works.

This teaching that evidence of true faith is works disproves itself, that faith alone is not true saving faith.

James 2:20
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
-22
Do you see that faith was working together with his works and by works faith was made perfect?

If saved without works as Pinseeker teaches, then we are saved by a dead, imperfect faith.

There is no such thing as salvation without works,
Faith itself is a work, John 6:28-29.
We are saved by the works of God,

Revelation 2:19
-I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

“Ongoing sanctification”?

This is not biblical.

We ARE (presently) sanctified! We are not being sanctified:

“ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11)

Otherwise, Christ has not been formed in you yet:

“My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you” (Galatians 4:19)

lol

Yes, we are positionally sanctified. Also called justified. Also called being in christ.

But at the same time we are being sanctified.

Its all right here in Hebrews

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

I am perfected forever. While at the same time, I am being sanctified.

Paul had to call out the corinthian church as babes unable to drink the meat of the word having to give them milk instead..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You struggle with sin because you are obeying the flesh and being disobedient to the Spirit:

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16)

Yep. As does every other person I have met.

You do it also, you just deny it.

You can claim you have no sin all you want. I will never believe it..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then what do you make of the verses in context that I brought up?
No thoughts on those verses?

I gave you mu thoughts

Are you ever going to tell me why Paul and Jesus lied?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

That rendering is from a corrupt Bible translation (ESV?). Here’s what this verse says in the better translated Bible:

“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14) KJV

Wow, more proof that modern Bibles align with false doctrines!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Eternal life is a person named Jesus Christ.
For Christ alone has immortality.

“…who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality…” (1 Timothy 6:15-16).

He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

How can we have an assurance that we know the Lord Jesus and thus have life (eternal life)?

1 John 2:3 basically says that we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find we are keeping His commandments.
1 John 2:4 basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.

What truth is not in them?
Jesus.
For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).
So if you are for the view that we “struggle with sin” every waking moment of our lives and we are carnal sold under sin according to Romans 7:14-24, then you are not for keeping God’s commandments that would align with 1 John 2:3-4.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:2
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

1 John 2:25
And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You can claim you have no sin all you want. I will never believe it..

“This is an hard saying; who can hear it?” (John 6:60)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are no Gentiles in the new covenant.

You are either in the House of Israel or the House of Judah.

Those are the two people groups that are listed as the members of the new covenant.

I hear people say things like, "there is no commandment for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath."

There is also NO commandment to let the Gentiles be part of the new covenant.

There are no jews in the new covenant

Romans 9:24
even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 3:29
Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[ScottA]

OSAS is not true for the simple fact that the Bible teaches that one can fall away. Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

You apparently do not fully understand the scriptures.

When one is saved (receives salvation), they only do so when they have come to the end of themselves--that is: when they die. What you are not accounting for, which God has documented in the scriptures, is that can and does happen to some while they are still alive in their sinful body that is passing away. This is a mystery that most do not understand. A person in this state who seems to continue in sin, is not sinning as they once sinned, but simply continues to pass away; allowed by God while they serve Him, and yet while they still remain under the final reign of Satan--not because they are weak or falling away, but because they are as Christ, who was also subjected to the evils of this world from that time of receiving the Holy Spirit until physical death--not because their own strength fails them, but because His strength sustains them.

Let me make this simple:

The scripture that you have not accounted for, is that "it is no longer they who live, but Christ who lives in them." Galatians 2:20 And those things spoken against them, are therefore spoken against Christ. No one who actually takes this truth to heart would ever make the arguments witnessed here--unless they themselves reject Christ, as themselves falling away.

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That rendering is from a corrupt Bible translation (ESV?). Here’s what this verse says in the better translated Bible:

“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14) KJV

Wow, more proof that modern Bibles align with false doctrines!

actually it is from the NKJV

the word perfected is perfect, active indicative, a completed action

the word sanctified is present passive, it is in the present time (ongoing) action of God acting on us to sanctify us. Unlike perfected, which is a completed act.

Your english bible has failed you because it misinterpreted the greek