Once Saved, Always Saved?

[ScottA]

Unless you believe OSAS is a life of sinless perfection, or in overcoming sin that leads unto death, it is a form of justifying sin.
Most I talk with do not believe this though. They think that 1 John 1:8 is a justification that they will always sin this side of heaven when the Bible does not teach that the saints are enslaved to their sinful nature and yet they are still saved. This is the heart of the issue we are dealing with here. Most take OSAS as meaning they can abide in some kind of sin and yet they are still saved. Others will keep throwing up that this is a straw man but it’s not. Many will say that backslidden Christians are saved. Many will say that you cannot lose salvation by sin.

This is a mystery, not unlike that of marriage, which was from the beginning, but not fully understood until the words of the prophets came to fruition in Christ, and after Paul explained it as the mystery it was.

This mystery of salvation and would-be sin, I have explained to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I already thoroughly explained this in post #1133.

What did Paul say in Romans 5:1? Therefore having been justified by faith (plus what? plus nothing) faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) You fail to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) We are not saved by both faith and works.

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead (hence faith only) -- produces no evidential works. In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

An empty profession of faith that produces no works at all/remains void of works, demonstrates that it's dead. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believein/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. We are justified by a living faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This faith that is alive in Christ results in producing good works, yet the good works follow salvation and do not precede it. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Believers are created in Christ Jesus unto good works and not the other way around.

Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and works "follow" saving faith in Christ. Dead faith produces no works. James is simply calling out those who merely claim to have faith, but have no works to validate their claim.

Ya gotta love how people just focus on a few verses. And reject the whole of what is being said.

 

[ScottA]

Also, I would rather be overly cautious with my soul and not cavalier with it thinking God will protect me if I sin.
Matthew 5:28-30 does not sound like Once Saved Always Saved. Neither does Galatians 5:19-21 sound like OSAS. If these verses were talking only to unbelievers, then why didn’t Paul clarify that point?

That is because you have not understood.

 

[Titus]

The Bible teaches Faith is A GIFT from God.
YOU quoted.......”a work OF God”....
Why are you implying “a work OF God” Is a mans works?
Sure enough, A man CAN NOT be saved, “WITHOUT “a work OF God”.
God absolutely DOES the WORKS that Saves a man....
...WORKS OF GOD...
Forgives, circumcises the heart, restores the soul, quickens the spirit, plants Gods Seed, Covers the man with His light, washes the man,
Sanctifies the man, Justifies the man.....
..WHY elevate man to supposedly doing Works that are Gods Works?

Not gulity

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is a mystery, not unlike that of marriage, which was from the beginning, but not fully understood until the words of the prophets came to fruition in Christ, and after Paul explained it as the mystery it was.

This mystery of salvation and would-be sin, I have explained to you.

So you cannot back up what your saying? Then how do you know it is true?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is because you have not understood.

To justify sin? That’s what OSAS teaches.
OSAS teaches that you don’t lose salvation by your sin.
Hence, you can sin and still be saved.
There are different degrees of OSAS. Some justify small amounts of sin, and others justify a lot.
So unless you are proposing Sinless Perfection or overcoming sins that lead unto death in order for OSAS to be true, then it is a justification for immorality and darkness.

So the ball is back in your court.

 

[ScottA]

I caught the live is Christ to die is gain reference in God’s Word but it was taken out of context to the rest of what you said.
Please provide all verse references to back up what you are saying. Don’t do it to help me, do it to help another. For are you here to hold all the cards and not let anyone know the truth in God’s Word?

No, that is not how things work. You are to know and hear His voice. If you do not, it is on you.

As for context, No again. An example would be the prophecies of Christ in the Psalms, not at all in the context of David's own reasons for stating them. God alone decides when a biblical principle or precedence is in context or not.

 

[Ezra]

Unless you believe OSAS is a life of sinless perfection, or in overcoming sin that leads unto death, it is a form of justifying sin.
Most I talk with do not believe this though. They think that 1 John 1:8 is a justification that they will always sin this side of heaven when the Bible does not teach that the saints are enslaved to their sinful nature and yet they are still saved. This is the heart of the issue we are dealing with here. Most take OSAS as meaning they can abide in some kind of sin and yet they are still saved. Others will keep throwing up that this is a straw man but it’s not. Many will say that backslidden Christians are saved. Many will say that you cannot lose salvation by sin.

you give me a headache every time i try to make sense of your post JUSTIFACTION is defined as being declared righteous / not guilty /just as if we had never sinned we are justified by grace by faith and by the Blood of Christ. the sinless perfection comes through sanctification/ which is 3 steps 1st step positional----saved placed into the Body of Christ 2nd step processive we become a work in progress /we grow in the grace and knowledge of HIM .3rd ultimate/finial we made it to heaven at that point we are %100 sinless . please read your bible do some study and lss of your OPOINNONS . you simply have not a clue what scripturas teach

 

[ScottA]

So you cannot back up what your saying? Then how do you know it is true?

"Back up?" ... I have already told you that what I told you was all scripture--which I quoted from the start. But you have not heard.

 

[Ezra]

To justify sin? That’s what OSAS teaches.
OSAS teaches that you don’t lose salvation by your sin.
Hence, you can sin and still be saved.
There are different degrees of OSAS. Some justify small amounts of sin, and others justify a lot.
So unless you are proposing Sinless Perfection or overcoming sins that lead unto death in order for OSAS to be true, then it is a justification for immorality and darkness.

So the ball is back in your court.

what Bible are you using ok no more headache is back trying to reason with your carnal thread......

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, that is not how things work. You are to know and hear His voice. If you do not, it is on you.

As for context, No again. An example would be the prophecies of Christ in the Psalms, not at all in the context of David's own reasons for stating them. God alone decides when a biblical principle or precedence is in context or not.

Actually were told to preach the Word.
All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
So why are you not doing so? The ball is back in your court, my mystery friend.

 

[Ezra]

"Back up?" ... I have already told you that what I told you was all scripture. But you have not heard.

save your time its like a beating a dead horse

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Back up?" ... I have already told you that what I told you was all scripture. But you have not heard.

I could Google them, but it’s more loving and beneficial for you to give verse references. It would be helpful. Help a brother out. Are not believers here to serve? Or are believers to be card holders of the truth that maybe the lower dogs might get some scraps if they are lucky?

 

[ScottA]

Actually were told to preach the Word.
All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
So why are you not doing so? The ball is back in your court, my mystery friend.

This I did, even quoting--but you did not hear it.

But "preaching the Word" is only part. These are those times of which we are lead into all truth by the Holy Spirit--those things which the apostles could not yet bear.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ya gotta love how people just focus on a few verses. And reject the whole of what is being said.

But I didn’t do that. I agree that it’s talking about the wicked or the weeds. They are gathered out of HIS KINGDOM (Christ’s Kingdom) as the Scriptures say in a nominal sense by the fact that they may profess Christ and do things for Him, but yet their heart is far from Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This I did, even quoting--but you did not hear it.

But "preaching the Word" is only part. These are those times of which we are lead into all truth by the Holy Spirit--those things which the apostles could not yet bear.

I do usually catch a lot of references in Scripture. But when your thoughts are mingled in there, it’s kind of hard to decipher the Word vs. your own thoughts. That’s why I desired for you to help a brother out and give verse citations. That way we can discuss what the verse is saying vs. you holding all the cards. Do you not want to interact with others? This is what it sounds like. You know that most will not pick through trying to find your verse references (Which I could do but it takes time), and thus it protects your belief in OSAS (of which is not true).

 

[ScottA]

I could Google them, but it’s more loving and beneficial for you to give verse references. It would be helpful. Help a brother out. Are not believers here to serve? Or are believers to be card holders of the truth that maybe the lower dogs might get some scraps if they are lucky?

Indeed, that is lovely.

But it also says that what is being spoken is possibly only quoted as head knowledge--which some do who have no knowledge. I prefer to quote from what is written upon the heart to those who are able to receive it by what is written on their own heart, or pick it up by what they have heard enough to know the Source...which is actually the biblical model.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Such arguments are only misunderstandings--on their part, but also on yours.

This is indeed a difficult matter to justify against a great deal of scripture, or even against one's conscience or Christian logic.

You are saying that OSAS is against one’s conscience and logic?
So God wants you to turn off your moral compass and your brain to believe in OSAS?
The Lord our God is a God of order and not chaos.
For the Scriptures say that God is not the author of confusion.

But it is a mystery not unlike God allowing Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery--and the explanation is the same: God indeed allows such things because His "strength is made perfect in weakness." In the case of Joseph's brothers, what was meant for evil, God meant for good. This is the biblical precedence.

Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery was to test the faithfulness of Joseph, and to try to turn around a bad situation for a greater good involving his brothers. This is no way proves OSAS that justifies the idea that a person does not lose salvation when they sin. Yes, God’s strength is made perfect in our times of suffering for the Lord. For when we are weak in suffering, Christ is strong in us. No doubt about it. But I don’t see how that relates to OSAS in how it justifies the idea that a person can sin and still be saved on some level.

In the case of Christians since the coming of the Holy Spirit, the precedence is the same--but the accusations against it are not at all biblical,

So you are saying that the accusations against OSAS are not at all biblical?
If so, I disagree. I have refuted OSAS several times using the Bible in this thread.

One point I brought up are the many verses that teach that a believer can fall away from the faith.

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,


Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)


In fact, Paul (the famous grace teacher) is against Eternal Security. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

as it is not even they who live, but Christ who lives in them.

So then, the mystery of this unique phenomenon only occurring during this church age--is not at all what it appears. But rather, it is the body of Christ in the role which Paul expressed as "for me, to live is Christ." In other words, those who's sins Christ died for, join in His suffering after the fact--after salvation, and yet their endurance "until the end" was fulfilled when they laid down their life by giving it over to Christ who then lives on in them. Which they do ordained by God to serve as if beyond the grave--many of whom fail as the world sees failure, just as Christ also attained victory by failure in death. Who's sins are then paid in full after the fact, for the sake of Christ, who chose not to take them when they laid down their life.

All of which means these accusations are actually against Christ...for which there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But OSAS is not about laying down your life for Christ. OSAS is all about how you don’t lose salvation no matter what. This breeds laziness and not wanting to live for the Lord.

 

[ScottA]

I do usually catch a lot of references in Scripture. But when you thoughts are mingled in there, it’s kind of hard to decipher the Word vs. your own thoughts. That’s why I desired for you to help a brother out and give verse citations. That way we can discuss what the verse is saying vs. you holding all the cards. Do you not want to interact with others? This is what it sounds like. You know that most will not pick through trying to find your verse references (Which I could do but it takes time), and thus it protects your belief in OSAS (of which is not true).

Fair enough.

But let's understand one another. Most on this thread are speaking up in defense of what they either know or believe to be true...and if we disagree, then one side is correct and correcting while the other is attacking the truth with conjecture. Either way, right or wrong, both are speaking forcefully.

So, yes, I can certainly stop and explain with chapter and verse...but it may not happen if the mud continues to fly. I mean, thus far, I have been matter-a-fact but nice, and would certainly welcome someone saying that they "don't understand, could you please elaborate or explain?"

More than happy to give it a try. But again, understand, I have already nicely explained to several people here in the posts above, the tenets of a mystery that has not been fully understood for 2,000 years--and thus far, it has been rejected in spite of quoting the scriptures. Which is the way of people who only want to hear what agrees with what they have heard before and only how it was previously understood.

And then, the whole thing about correction--no body likes that. Unfortunately.

 

[Titus]

What did Paul say in Romans 5:1? Therefore having been justified by faith (plus what? plus nothing) faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone

The misunderstanding Dathemailman, is how saving faith is being defined.
You wrongly define Biblical faith as seperate from works.

The Bible defines faith as an action. Never mental assent. Never without obedience.

Paul is teaching a working faith in Romans 5:1,
-Therefore having been justified by faith......

Romans 5:1 cannot be teaching faith without works justifies.
James teaches faith must have works in order to be justified.

Paul and James both taught an obedient faith ie a working faith is what justifies man.

They both use Abraham's faith as the Biblical faith that God accepts.
We must have the same kind of faith Abraham has in order for God to justify us.

James also teaches how we are justified.
It is not by faith without works.
It is a faith with works,
James 2:24,
-You see then that a man is justified by works, and not faith alone.

Paul and James both teach Abraham was justified the same way.
By a faith that obeys God.

You fail to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) We are not saved by both faith and works.

No Sir, I have not failed to understand the message James is teaching.
You are partly right,
James is teaching evidence of true faith will obey Gods commandments.

But you are mistaken when you teach James was not teaching on initial salvation.
James is teaching both.

Here James teaches that faith alone does not save us, ie initial salvation.
James 2:14,
-what does it profit my brethren , if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
-can faith alone save him?

James is discussing the subject of initial salvation in verse 14. "Can faith without works save us"?

Now listen to James teach that true saving faith can be shown by evidence. That evidence is our obedient works,
James 2:18,
-but someone will say, You have faith alone and I have works, Show me your faith without any works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

James' teaching is true saving faith is never alone.
The faith that Paul and James teaches justified Abraham is a faith that works, obeys God.

Paul never taught faith without works justifies man.

Paul taught there is only one kind of faith that is profitable for the person who obtains it.
Paul believes that the only faith that does any good is a faith that works by love,

Galatians 5:6,
-For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision, profits anything, but faith working through love.

Paul knows the only faith that does man any good must have works.

James and Paul teach the same faith that saves us.

Abraham was not justified without obedient works to God.

Genesis 15:6,
-And he believed the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Abraham was not accounted righteous by a faith with no works.

Listen to how Abraham's faith was a working faith.
This is why God accounted Abraham's faith to him as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8,
-by faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance.
-And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Now would God have approved of Abraham's faith if he had only believed but did not obey Gods commandments?
No,
It was faith that caused Abraham to do Gods will.
That faith and works is why God blessed Abraham.

Abraham never would have received any blessing from God if he only had faith alone.

Conclusion Romans 5:1 is teaching faith that obeys God, justifies and saves.
Just as James is teaching in James 2:14-26.