Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Bible Highlighter]

the mystery of this unique phenomenon only occurring during this church age--is not at all what it appears.

When we look at the word “mystery” referred to in the New Testament, none of those verse references is dealing with OSAS because OSAS does not exist. There are a good number of verses by the apostle Paul when he refers to the word mystery.
So the burden of proof is on you to bring up which exact reference in the New Testament you are referring to.
This is why I asked for verse references. Remember, to be great in the Kingdom means we are to serve others as Christians.

But rather, it is the body of Christ in the role which Paul expressed as "for me, to live is Christ." In other words, those who's sins Christ died for, join in His suffering after the fact--after salvation, and yet their endurance "until the end" was fulfilled when they laid down their life by giving it over to Christ who then lives on in them. Which they do ordained by God to serve as if beyond the grave--many of whom fail as the world sees failure, just as Christ also attained victory by failure in death.

The problem is that you taken verse references here and sprinkled it in with your own thoughts.
To live is Christ is to let Christ shine through your life in living for Him. It’s about picking up your cross, denying yourself, and following Jesus.
This concept is totally absent in OSAS because you don’t have to do that in OSAS. According to a consistent OSAS theology: You are once saved always saved and nothing you can do will change that. So living for Christ is merely optional and not a necessity. There is no need to endure to the end to be saved if OSAS is true.

Also, Christ’s appearance that He failed in the eyes of unbelievers is not the same as OSAS who think they can justify sin and evil with the thinking they are saved. That’s a misconnect if that is what you are implying.

Who's sins are then paid in full after the fact, for the sake of Christ, who chose not to take them when they laid down their life.

So you believe that in order for OSAS to be true, they must lay down their life?
That doesn’t sound like OSAS but it sounds like a condition.

All of which means these accusations are actually against Christ...for which there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I know of the verse references that refer to weeping and gnashing of teeth but it is your own words that say that the accusations against OSAS are actually against Christ. So the ball is back in your court.

 

[ScottA]

You are saying that OSAS is against one’s conscience and logic?
So God wants you to turn off your moral compass and your brain to believe in OSAS?
The Lord our God is a God of order and not chaos.
For the Scriptures say that God is not the author of confusion.

I am going to take these one at a time:

Yes, of course, sin for anyone who is God's...is not going to be taken well.

But no, God does not want anyone to turn off their moral compass. But rather to learn the greater truth of His mysterious ways, by all that is written of Him, i.e., He allowed sin since the beginning, He brought about victory through failure on a cross--life by death, His strength is made perfect in weakness, etc., etc...Jesus even claimed to be God while walking around in the body of a man, and Paul claimed to be Christ.

To the contrary, by sticking to their moral and scriptural compass and knowledge--Israel crucified Christ.

Sorry, no chapter and verse--but I hope you get the point.

As for chaos and confusion...nooo, that is wrong. The scriptures actually say God confused all language, creates both good and brings about wickedness, and yet He is rather a God of order. Which He is.

Need scriptures?

 

[Titus]

Of man, Titus. They teach that faith is not a work of man. And it's not; scripture affirms that it's not.

Wrong, I have spoken to alot of Baptist that teach faith is not a work period.

Danthemailman for example does not believe John 6:28-29 is teaching literal. The working of faith according to Danthemailman is a figurative language spoken by Jesus.

I do not agree. Faith is a work.
This disproves faith onlyism.

Faith itself is a work, therefore there is no salvation without works.
Even though faith is a work of God, it is commanded that We believe,
1John 3:23-24.
Therefore when we obey the commandment to believe In Jesus.
We are working the works of God.
Paul calls these works, "works of righteousness",
Acts 10:35

 

[ScottA]

Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery was to test the faithfulness of Joseph, and to try to turn around a bad situation for a greater good involving his brothers. This is no way proves OSAS that justifies the idea that a person does not lose salvation when they sin. Yes, God’s strength is made perfect in our times of suffering for the Lord. For when we are weak in suffering, Christ is strong in us. No doubt about it. But I don’t see how that relates to OSAS in how it justifies the idea that a person can sin and still be saved on some level.

Well, certainly the whole ordeal did test Joseph's faithfulness. But that is just the smaller, local, historic, story, which is not the eternal value and the statement it makes throughout all time about the way God operates in a way that cannot be described as human logic--but completely the opposite. Are you with me here?? 'Cause God does not pick winners--that would be logical. But, no, He picks losers, and makes winners...who may even do so by loosing--just as Jesus did.

So, if you can wrap you head around the sting approach of God--would-be sin by the carcass of those who have given those carcasses to Christ to wrap up the times of the gentiles--is me saying exactly what is true...but what most do not want to hear. "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Matthew 24:28 (which no one ever understood either)

But, not to worry, you are not alone. Israel never saw the truth either, even when He walked among them.

 

[ScottA]

So you are saying that the accusations against OSAS are not at all biblical?
If so, I disagree. I have refuted OSAS several times using the Bible in this thread.

One point I brought up are the many verses that teach that a believer can fall away from the faith.

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,


Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)


In fact, Paul (the famous grace teacher) is against Eternal Security. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

We can take them one at a time if you would like to...but since you lump them together, so will I:

Each of those--all of those, were when? (speaking of context)

They were written in response to that evil generation. Which Paul even had to clarify, instructing Timothy about the future which would be coming out of that time, saying that those words needed to be "rightly divided"--because they were on the cusp of change from putting that evil generation in their place with words of fear of losing what they had potentially gained, with those things also preached to those who had no part in that evil generation. Which things were and are good counsel even for those who were not a part, because hearing the gospel is not the same thing as receiving it and laying down your life. Some did not and do not receive it for sometime, and it is during that time that those words also serve them as well, that they too should know the consequences of less than holy faith.

But then comes the mystery of these times which has not been fully understood--the mystery of the carcasses. Matthew 24:28

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am going to take these one at a time:

Yes, of course, sin for anyone who is God's...is not going to be taken well.

Right, like Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Galatians 5:19-21, and Revelation 21:8. Is that what you had in mind?

But no, God does not want anyone to turn off their moral compass.

But that is what OSAS does. It says you can sin and still be saved on some level. You don’t lose salvation when you sin. So how you live is not important to entering the Kingdom. I here it all the time by OSASers.

But rather to learn the greater truth of His mysterious ways, by all that is written of Him, i.e., He allowed sin since the beginning, He brought about victory through failure on a cross--life by death, His strength is made perfect in weakness, etc., etc...Jesus even claimed to be God while walking around in the body of a man,

Jesus claimed to be God because He is God. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity.

and Paul claimed to be Christ.

Uh… no he didn’t.

To the contrary, by sticking to their moral and scriptural compass and knowledge--Israel crucified Christ.

Most Christians know this fact. Not sure how that helps your case for OSAS, though. OSAS justifies sin.

As for chaos and confusion...nooo, that is wrong. The scriptures actually say God confused all language, creates both good and brings about wickedness, and yet He is rather a God of order. Which He is.

Need scriptures?

As for 1 Corinthians 14:33 vs. the Tower of Babel:

I think this article says it best.

The answer to this question deals with the idea of context. What is the context of Paul's statement and therefore its truth; and what is the context of the Tower of Babel and therefore its truth.

Paul states, "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33). Briefly, I note that Paul is discussing some of the spiritual gifts in the Corinthian Church. In addition, Paul states that God is not the God of disorder in the "congregations of the saints." So, God desires peace and order in the Church. If there is confusion in the Church, it is not of the 'normal' workings and desire of God.

In Genesis 11, God is not dealing with the "congregation of the saints." Moreover, God is not dealing with "spiritual gifts," but rather an attempt to disobey His command to fill the earth (Gen. 9:1). Instead of obeying the covenant command to fill the earth, the babblers, outwardly defied God saying, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth" (Gen. 11:4). So, "the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth" (Gen. 11:8-9). So, this judgment from God was to reveal righteousness, punish sin, and as a secondary cause to assist his creation to fulfill his command to fill the earth.

Thus, there is no contradiction. Each set of verses has a different context.​

Source:
Statement of Faith
(Note: While I agree with the article, I do not agree with the website or author in that they are Reformed or for Calvinism).

In other words, God is not the author of confusion in the church of the saints.
This would apply to even us involving one’s understanding of His Word. His saints will of course understand.

As for your statement that God brings about wickedness:

Oh, boy. Please do not tell me you just said that.
What happened to that moral compass discussion we were having before?

 

[Grailhunter]

WRONG WRONG WRONG to be sanctified sanctify is set apart to become holy which is a work in progress .it is not different

Sanctification

Merriam Webster Dictionary
1 : to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use : consecrate. 2 : to free from sin : purify. 3a : to impart or impute sacredness, inviolability, or respect to. b : to give moral or social sanction to.

What does Sanctification mean in the Bible.

Sanctification or in its verb form, sanctify, literally means "to set apart for special use or purpose", that is, to make holy or sacred, as in the Greek…Αγιάζω…Pronounced…agiázo. Therefore, sanctification refers to the state or process of being set apart, i.e. "made holy", as a vessel, full of the Holy Spirit.

Sanctification is an ongoing process, dependent on God's continuing action in the believer, and consisting of the believer's continuous struggle against sin. The Christian experience and application, knowing that without Christ's enabling we cannot do good works, but also that He is ready to strengthen us for all we have to do (Phil. 4:13), we "abide" in Christ, asking for His help constantly— and we receive it (Col. 1:11; 1 Tim. 1:12; 2 Tim. 1:7; 2:1).

The word sanctify means to set apart (it has the same root as the words saint and holy) For Christians, sanctification has three progressions; First, the believer has been set apart by his position in the family of God. This occurs at Baptism. This is usually called positional sanctification. It means being set apart as a member of the family of God. It is true of every believer regardless of his or her spiritual condition. 1st Corinthians 6:1 And remember the carnal condition of these believers. This positional sanctification is condition set by the death of Christ for all believers. Hebrews 10:10. The saved status.

Then there is the experiential condition of sanctification. Because we have been set apart in our walk with Christ and continue to workout our salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 we are increasing set apart as we continue and mature as Christians and apply Christ to our lives. 1st Peter 1:16 No one is “more” saved than another but in this position of experiential sanctification is correct to say that some are or sanctified than others. All of the exhortations of the New Testament concerning faith and spiritual growth are pertinent to this progressive and experiential facet of sanctification.

Then full sanctification occurs when we see Christ and become as he is. 1st John 3:1-3 This is our ultimate or future sanctification, which awaits our complete glorification with our resurrected bodies. Ephesians 5:26-27 and Jude 24-25.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, certainly the whole ordeal did test Joseph's faithfulness. But that is just the smaller, local, historic, story, which is not the eternal value and the statement it makes throughout all time about the way God operates in a way that cannot be described as human logic--but completely the opposite. Are you with me here?? 'Cause God does not pick winners--that would be logical. But, no, He picks losers, and makes winners...who may even do so by loosing--just as Jesus did.

Losers would be those who don’t obey God. Jesus obeyed God and His death on the cross was not in anyway losing. It might have been seen that way from the world’s perspective, but that is not what was really happening.

So, if you can wrap you head around the sting approach of God--would-be sin by the carcass of those who have given those carcasses to Christ to wrap up the times of the gentiles--is me saying exactly what is true...but what most do not want to hear. "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Matthew 24:28 (which no one ever understood either)

Okay. Let me see if I got this straight. Your saying that the carcasses is the sinful body of the saints in this verse? I sure hope that is not what you are saying. That would be crazy talk. Just like the false Dual Nature Theology that falsely teaches that one sins in their body but they don’t sin in their spirit. Crazy talk.

But, not to worry, you are not alone. Israel never saw the truth either, even when He walked among them.

Jesus rebuked the Jews for not living holy and or righteous and you want me to believe that God was secretly teaching OSAS that justifies sin? Yeah, I don’t think so.

 

[ScottA]

When we look at the word “mystery” referred to in the New Testament, none of those verse references is dealing with OSAS because OSAS does not exist. There are a good number of verses by the apostle Paul when he refers to the word mystery.
So the burden of proof is on you to bring up which exact reference in the New Testament you are referring to.
This is why I asked for verse references. Remember, to be great in the Kingdom means we are to serve others as Christians.

Is that what men think and teach? Apparently.

It doesn't hold water.

According to men for millennia, marriage was not about men and women alike being the bride of Christ, either.

But I only mention it as a precedence. But don't tell me about a burden of proof--you are out of order, it doesn't work that way.

Meanwhile, I have given plenty of scripture references. In the case of the mystery of marriage, Isaiah only briefly mentioned it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We can take them one at a time if you would like to...but since you lump them together, so will I:

Each of those--all of those, were when? (speaking of context)

They were written in response to that evil generation. Which Paul even had to clarify, instructing Timothy about the future which would be coming out of that time, saying that those words needed to be "rightly divided"--because they were on the cusp of change from putting that evil generation in their place with words of fear of losing what they had potentially gained, with those things also preached to those who had no part in that evil generation. Which things were and are good counsel even for those who were not a part, because hearing the gospel is not the same thing as receiving it and laying down your life. Some did not and do not receive it for sometime, and it is during that time that those words also serve them as well, that they too should know the consequences of less than holy faith.

But then comes the mystery of these times which has not been fully understood--the mystery of the carcasses. Matthew 24:28

This is a generalized explanation that really does not explain each individual verse in context.

As for the carcasses: It is the world that the saints will devour. The marriage supper of the Lamb is not in Heaven, but it is a battle or a war against this world when Christ comes down and destroys it (with His saints following). The eagles (saints) will be gathered to devour (consume their enemies - metaphorically speaking in that they will be conquered).

 

[ScottA]

The problem is that you taken verse references here and sprinkled it in with your own thoughts.
To live is Christ is to let Christ shine through your life in living for Him. It’s about picking up your cross, denying yourself, and following Jesus.
This concept is totally absent in OSAS because you don’t have to do that in OSAS. According to a consistent OSAS theology: You are once saved always saved and nothing you can do will change that. So living for Christ is merely optional and not a necessity. There is no need to endure to the end to be saved if OSAS is true.

Also, Christ’s appearance that He failed in the eyes of unbelievers is not the same as OSAS who think they can justify sin and evil with the thinking they are saved. That’s a misconnect if that is what you are implying.

No...not my own thoughts.

As for your understanding of the scriptures...even the Pharisees understood the scriptures, or so they thought.

Again, if Christ can pick out phrases from the law and the prophets to show Himself the Son of God, He can also insert phrases now as He chooses. And this was to be.

Anyway...you are under the wrong impression about salvation being forever: One who is saved, does not life "for" Christ as you describe it--but He is Christ, meaning no long they who live, but Christ who lives. Galatians 2:20

As for enduring to the end--Christ is the End. When it is He who lives and not the person--they have died.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is that what men think and teach? Apparently.

Uh, no. That’s actually Jesus.

Matthew 23:11
“But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.”

According to men for millennia, marriage was not about men and women alike being the bride of Christ, either.

So you think that the bride of Christ is not in reference to both male and female believers in Jesus Christ?
If so, prove your case with the Bible.

But I only mention it as a precedence. But don't tell me about a burden of proof--you are out of order, it doesn't work that way.

Sure it does.

2 Timothy 4:2
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.”

Meanwhile, I have given plenty of scripture references. In the case of the mystery of marriage, Isaiah only briefly mentioned it.

But how does that help your case for OSAS? OSAS justifies sin. So it’s not biblical.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Merriam Webster

Learn from the Bible what “sanctification” is. There’s no “three steps of sanctification” expressly taught in the Bible alone.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No...not my own thoughts.

As for your understanding of the scriptures...even the Pharisees understood the scriptures, or so they thought.

Again, if Christ can pick out phrases from the law and the prophets to show Himself the Son of God, He can also insert phrases now as He chooses. And this was to be.

Anyway...you are under the wrong impression about salvation being forever: One who is saved, does not life "for" Christ as you describe it--but He is Christ, meaning no long they who live, but Christ who lives. Galatians 2:20

As for enduring to the end--Christ is the End. When it is He who lives and not the person--they have died.

I believe the Substitutionary Atonement, but it only applies if we abide by the terms of the contract.
For example: While it is true that Christ is the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood (Romans 3:25), it is also equally true that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).
Walking in the light = Loving your brother according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. So you have to not only believe in the blood of Jesus, but you also have to love your brother in order for the blood of Jesus to continue to be applied to your life as you live out your faith. It’s not a one and your done kind of thing as OSAS falsely teaches.

Your version of the exchange makes it appear like Christ does not see our sin when we do sin. That’s not the kind of exchange that has happened here. That would be nonsense.

 

[Grailhunter]

Learn from the Bible what “sanctification” is. There’s no “three steps of sanctification” expressly taught in the Bible alone.

Most of that came with scriptures
I just threw in the Webster's for another perspective.
You learn from the Bible

 

[Bible Highlighter]

you give me a headache every time i try to make sense of your post JUSTIFACTION is defined as being declared righteous / not guilty /just as if we had never sinned we are justified by grace by faith and by the Blood of Christ. the sinless perfection comes through sanctification/ which is 3 steps 1st step positional----saved placed into the Body of Christ 2nd step processive we become a work in progress /we grow in the grace and knowledge of HIM .3rd ultimate/finial we made it to heaven at that point we are %100 sinless . please read your bible do some study and lss of your OPOINNONS . you simply have not a clue what scripturas teach

It’s simple. God would have to agree with your sin in order for you to think you can abide in any kind of sin with the thinking you are saved. OSAS is saying that you don’t lose salvation even if you sin. That sounds like the devil in the garden of Eden when he convinced Eve to sin (or break God’s command) with the thinking she would not die. Most OSASers I have talked with do not think they can overcome sin in this life. So there is your OSAS justification of doing evil or sin because God’s Word says follow after holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). God cannot agree with evil or sin because He is holy and righteous, and good.

You guys are not fooling anyone who truly desires to have a pure heart, and to do what is good in the eyes of God.

Side Note: I believe that not all sin is the same. John talks about a sin that is not unto death in 1 John 5:16-17. Do you believe him?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Fair enough.

But let's understand one another. Most on this thread are speaking up in defense of what they either know or believe to be true...and if we disagree, then one side is correct and correcting while the other is attacking the truth with conjecture. Either way, right or wrong, both are speaking forcefully.

So, yes, I can certainly stop and explain with chapter and verse...but it may not happen if the mud continues to fly. I mean, thus far, I have been matter-a-fact but nice, and would certainly welcome someone saying that they "don't understand, could you please elaborate or explain?"

More than happy to give it a try. But again, understand, I have already nicely explained to several people here in the posts above, the tenets of a mystery that has not been fully understood for 2,000 years--and thus far, it has been rejected in spite of quoting the scriptures. Which is the way of people who only want to hear what agrees with what they have heard before and only how it was previously understood.

And then, the whole thing about correction--no body likes that. Unfortunately.

Jesus said it is written many times to show that He was referring to Scripture. Jesus is said to be our example. The Bible is our guide for all matters of faith and practice. If you are not providing actual verse number references, then you are not helping others to see your position on the Bible. Okay, maybe I should take that back. Keep doing what your doing. I think that’s great. Don’t share verse citations with others because that will not help to convince them of your unbiblical view of OSAS in the Bible. For I don’t want you to convince any person of OSAS. Thank you for not being convincing of your position on OSAS. Just keep saying it is a mystery. Just keep holding all the cards.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6) and we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:18, 21, 24) You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *This remains your achilles heel and also exposes you as teaching salvation by works* which explains a lot!

Nowhere did I say that works is for initial salvation of which you imply by your words, I quote:

“…to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works -James 2:14-18),
and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God.”
Quote by: mailmandan.​

I believe there are two aspects of salvation taught in the Bible.

Aspect of Salvation #1.
We are initially saved by God’s grace without works through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).
(This is when we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and we throw ourselves down upon His mercy and forgiveness and we believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Aspect of Salvation #2.
We enter the Sanctification Process of the Hoy Spirit. For 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. Sanctification of the Spirit involves putting away sin, doing good works, keeping oneself unspotted from this world, etcetera. In other words, one is living holy by the power of God working in them.​

But yes. Sanctification is a part of the faith just as being saved by God’s grace is a part of the faith. You whole New Testament is a part of the faith. So if God tells you to live holy in His Word, that’s a part of the faith. Faith is like a two sided coin. It starts off as a belief alone, but it does not remain that way. Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism is false. Temporal Belief Alone Salvation is true because it exists in our Initial Salvation. For our faith or belief in being saved by God’s grace (without works) is followed by the Sanctification Process which does involve works, living holy, etcetera by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I already thoroughly explained this to you and 'faith alone' here is referring to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains 'alone' - barren of works (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. Genuine believers understand this. I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #1133.

Once again you demonstrate that you don't have ears to hear which explains a lot! As I already explained to you in post #1133, in James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. That is what he is plainly saying and you don't like it because you teach salvation by works.

Again, you are unable to see this. If works are required to show or authenticate a true faith that saves, even if the works themselves did not save in of themselves alone, the works would be a requirement for salvation because you would need to have them in order to authenticate a genuine faith that saves. So even in your model you have described, it means you believe that works do save. If no works save of any kind then no works should be required to authenticate a genuine faith that saves.

Anyways, I believe that works is a way of showing a person’s faith according to James. Paul calls this the work of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11).

The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.
Source:
Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.”

Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have it's service.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

We are not justified (accounted as righteous) by works at all (Romans 4:2-6) but we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works (James 2:18, 21, 24)

This is what I call splitting hairs. James plainly says you are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). You want to be justified by faith alone but the Bible does not say that. You change the meaning of what James meant on justification because he said that he will show you his faith by his works. This merely demonstrates the symbiotic nature between faith and works. Eventually in time, one will not exist without the other. James says faith without works is dead. Meaning, you cannot be saved by a dead faith (or a faith that does not eventually produce works). So works of faith is a salvation issue unless you believe you can be saved by a dead faith (without eventual works). By what you stated so far, you believe a genuine faith has works to authenticate a saving faith. Therefore works is a part of the salvation equation.

Yet according to you, we are initially saved by grace through faith, not works, but ultimately we are saved by works. That is 'type 2 works salvation' in a nutshell.

We are INITIALLY and FOUNDATIONALLY saved by God’s grace through faith.
How? Well, not only are you saved by God’s grace and mercy when you first come to the Lord Jesus as the Savior, and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but you are saved foundationally by His grace without works, too. For if a believer happens to stumble unintentionally into sin on rare occasion, they confess of their sin to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1). This is all God’s mercy and grace without works saving us if we mess up on rare occasion. We don’t go out and do a good work to redeem a sin we may have committed on rare occasion. So God’s grace. It’s initial and foundational. Without it, no person could ever do good works because their past life of sin would condemn them.

Now you sound like the workers in the vineyard who worked all day for a denarius and grumbled against workers who were hired later and worked for only one hour yet also received a denarius and were made equal to them. (Matthew 20:8–12) You seem to think that you deserve salvation based on hard work.

I don’t think that parable applies to your point involving me. I believe there are saints who will accept Jesus as their Savior on their deathbed without doing any works. I believe the thief of the cross was saved without works. Babies who die in this life are also saved by Christ’s sacrifice even without faith or works. God’s grace knows no bounds (in line with His goodness). But God’s grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In this parable, the talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability. (Matthew 25:15) The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (verse 27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground. (verse 25) The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:26-30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved.

Your missing one of the major points of the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25, friend. One major point was to show that one needs to be fruitful (have works) to be saved (Which is obviously only after one is intiially saved by God’s grace without works - Ephesians 2:8-9). You may call my plain reading of this parable as “works salvation” and yet that is what this parable is teaching. Your imaginative story about how the unprofitable servant was not converted is merely made up, as well. Granted, while I do not deny that we must all be born again spiritually by both water and the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5), there is no indication that this unprofitable servant was not born again.

In the parable of the prodigal son (in Luke 15), we learn that when the son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that he was DEAD and now he is ALIVE AGAIN. His father said that he was lost and now he is found. This is speaking in spiritual terms. The prodigal son was dead spiritually while he was prodigal and in sin, and when he came back home to his father seeking forgiveness, he became alive AGAIN spiritually. This truth is also told to us in James 5:19-20, as well. In other words, the prodigal son proves that one can be previously converted or alive spiritually, and then die spiritually, and then later seek forgiveness with God again, and become Alive AGAIN spiritually. So your claim that the unprofitable servant in Matthew 25 was unprofitable because he was unconverted (or not born again) is just an assumption on your part. The unprofitable servant was not being blamed because he did not choose to seek forgiveness with his master so as to be converted, but the reason why he was cast into outer darkness was because he simply was an unprofitable servant. Thus, this parable is showing that you need works at some point in your life as a believer in order to be saved. If you believe otherwise, then your position is…

“No works save and therefore works are not required at all (because works are not salvific).”

Yes, I know you said that works will always show a genuine faith, but this is a contradiction for you to say this because you say works do not save. If works do not save (period), then they are not needed to authenticate a saving faith. If works are needed to authenticate a saving faith then works is a part of the salvation equation. In other words, what you believe is a contradiction and you are unable to see that currently. Your belief here is not consistent (Just as OSAS is not consistent). For if you are Once Saved Always Saved then NOTHING you ever do should change one from being saved even if you sinned a thousand times a day.

If man made history is correct, it appears Luther believed this.

For it appears Luther may have said:

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day”
​

['Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. - Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404].

So this false theology has been perpetuated through history by even men like Luther (if his above words are actually what he said and he meant them all the way unto his death).

If it makes you feel any better, the works believers do is not ultimately ours own alone. It is Christ in you, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) (Philippians 2:13), the Father, and the Holy Spirit (i.e. the triune GOD who is one God) who does the work through us. For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). So I cannot take the credit and or boast in myself. I cannot look in the mirror in a public place and scream for others to come see how good I look. That’s not how it works. Jesus deserves all the glory. For it’s why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. Yes, we must cooperate of our own free will with God to do the work, but it is ultimately the Lord who deserves the glory for that work. This is why Jesus said there is none good but God. Only God can do the GOOD through you. Hence, there is no boasting in oneself, but there is only boasting in the Lord and His goodness.

The children of Israel were called "servants," but they were not all saved.

Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, (the Israelites) but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

Isaiah 43:10 - “You (Israel vs. 1) are My witnesses,” says the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen..

I believe the Israelites started off doing things correctly like putting the blood on the doorposts (which is a picture of being saved by God’s grace), but when it came time to their test of Sanctification, they did not all pass the test. Only Joshua and Caleb entered the Promise land. It was the FEW who were saved, and not many. Jesus mentioned how only a FEW will be saved. Yet, OSAS caters and appeals to the many and not the few because it makes room for a person to think they can sin on some level and be saved (because one does not lose salvation if they sin). Meaning they can backslide and be saved, or they will not lose salvation if they sin every now and then. For you have admitted to me that believers must sin according to 1 John 1:8. But it was by Israel’s unbelief and sin that they did not enter the Promise Land.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

If every day is set apart, then no day is set apart.

.....and that’s the way it “ should” be.....
Worship our Savior every hour of everyday.....not just for one hour on Sunday...