Error and Contradictions in the Bible

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FHII

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There has been a rash of charges lately that the Bible has contradictions. I’d like to address any of them and invite others who believe that the Bible doesn’t have contradictions to join me. I’d also like to invite those who believe the Bible has contradictions to openly present them. Not in a challenging manner; if you are looking to prove your point, you are going to come into any explanation already with doubt. If you already have the opinion that the Bible has error and contradictions, and you don’t want to believe otherwise, then go on your own way. No hard feelings, but I’m not going to able to help you, neither is anyone else who may offer a response, and neither is the Bible going to be able to help you. I don’t even think the Holy Spirit (which is the spirit of Truth) can help you, but I may be wrong.
But at least give us a chance. We may not be able to answer every question…. I certainly can’t. I don’t have answers to all of the alledged Bible contradictions. But I got some. So I encourage those who believe there is error or contradictions to seek answers (Hello Prentis, Robbie, Fire 7) and those who know there’s a Bible answer and it doesn’t to contribute (Hi, Duckybill, Biblescribe, and others).
So let me begin with Acts 5 vs. Romans 13. Should we obey men or God? At first glance, people have seen these verses as contradictory. Taking a closer look, they aren’t actually contradictory. At third glance, its clear that they are saying the same thing. Let me present the text that is in question:
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. (KJV)
Romans 13:1 let every sould be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God. the powers that be are ordained of God. (KJV)
Where things go wrong is assuming that Romans 13 is talking about governments. It isn’t. It’s talking about Church authority, not government authority. The Holy Spirit told me this not through private revelation, but through the scriptures. Because as you read on through Rom 13 you come across an identifying thing… It’s not talking about kings, presidents, congresses or earthly rulers. It’s talking about ministers of God. That is your Apostle, Preacher, Pastor, Evangelist, Teacher or whatever you want to call him.
People will reject that because they hate the idea of Church authority. But there is a Church authority. It doesn’t mean the pastor is any holier than the sheep, but it does mean there is a leadership.
If you go through Romans 13 you will see that twice this person is identified as a minister of God. It does not say a king or president of the earth. People are often thrown off track by talk of a sword and other things. However that sword is the Word. That is the sword a pastor wields.
Hebrews 13:7 backs that up. Government officials are not watching for your soul. They are appointed by God, but not for his ministry. That’s how the Holy Spirit shows me the Truth about this so called contradiction… By backing up scripture with scripture.
Now, the minister of God doesn’t speak on his own behalf. He speaks for the Lord, and does the Lord’s work. Thus when you obey him, you are obeying God. I know full well there are many false preachers and false ministers out there. I’m not talking about them. Romans was written by Paul. Is there anyone here that denies that Paul was Christ’s ambassador, spokesman, and Apostle (one called)? I am fully persuaded that everything Paul said was given and ordained by Christ.
Is that true today? I believe that some are. Well, a few and a precious few. But my point is that Romans 13 is saying submit to a man of God (and thus you are submitting to God, as the man of God is the mouthpiece of God) and not gov’t officials. Now you can find verses in the Bible that state obey Magistrates and gov’t officials. However, Romans 13 ain’t it. Furthermore, those verses that do say obey gov’ts don’t suggest a contradiction. We obey gov’t so we don’t cause an uproar and bring reproach to God. But when a choice is made, we obey God first. As much as we can, we live by the law of the land.
Now, if you believe the Bible has contradictions and error, chances are you certainly aren’t going to agree with me on Romans 13. However, I’m not giving my interpretation…. Look at the verses that follow it. It identifies this person as a minister of God. That’s not an interpretation! That’s what it says.
I don’t even know if people who believe the Bible is the final authority, and without contradiction, will agree with me on that. But that is what the scripture says. It never was a contradiction to begin with and there is no better interpretation (and I suggest it isn’t an interpretation, but word for word what it says the higher powers are) than what I have said, by my own opinion.
Folks, search the scriptures. There has always been a leader of the Church or at least a few leaders. The only time is when man did what was right in his own eyes. That is when God divorced Israel and didn’t come again until Christ…. That period was about 400 years. That’s when the iron and clay empire of Rome took over.
So, to conclude…. Bring your contradictions with a willingness to learn. If you want to believe that the Bible contains errors and contradictions, please stay away. You won’t like what you hear….
 

BibleScribe

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Hi FHII,

I really don't have a "contradiction" question, but in today's radio broadcast Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel offered that the 153 fish represented the old "fisherman" nature of the disciples. (Ref. John 21:11)

I would intuitively disagree, being that anyone's old nature is generic in whatever failings we may have had. Thus the Ten Commandments cover those broad categories. As such, could you offer any insight as to the True significance of that number in this verse, -- which I believe to be prophetic?


Thanks,
BibleScribe


PS You lost me in your sentence structure which references "Duckybill", me, and "others". Was this an attempt for the eye to say to the hand, we have no need of thee? (Ref. 1 Cor. 12:21) :wacko:
 

Duckybill

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I would like to say that those who charge the Bible as being contradictory owe all of us an explanation. How do you know about Jesus if not from the Bible?
 

Robbie

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You're saying not to post anything to prove a point yet you started this whole thread to prove your point... hahahahahahah... so typical...
 

FHII

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Hi FHII,

I really don't have a "contradiction" question, but in today's radio broadcast Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel offered that the 153 fish represented the old "fisherman" nature of the disciples. (Ref. John 21:11)

I would intuitively disagree, being that anyone's old nature is generic in whatever failings we may have had. Thus the Ten Commandments cover those broad categories. As such, could you offer any insight as to the True significance of that number in this verse, -- which I believe to be prophetic?


Thanks,
BibleScribe


PS You lost me in your sentence structure which references "Duckybill", me, and "others". Was this an attempt for the eye to say to the hand, we have no need of thee? (Ref. 1 Cor. 12:21) :wacko:
I really don't have an answer about the 153 fish. I've never considered or heard much about the significance of the number. I do believe it has some significance, but I don't know what it is. Furthermore, I can't comment on Pastor Chuck Smith's teaching of the subject.... I haven't heard it.

I'm sure if you do a google search you'll find all kinds of answers with wacky math and such searching for an answer. Chances are there is a very simplistic answer for it in the Bible, which doesn't deal with you deviding this number into that one, adding up the didgets and whatever they may do.

As for me mentioning you and duckybill... I was simply saying that folks like you believe the Bible, and if you have answers to any of these so called contradictions, please join in!

You're saying not to post anything to prove a point yet you started this whole thread to prove your point... hahahahahahah... so typical...

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I said if you have a willingness to learn and want explanations for what appears to be a contradiction, please post it. I don't know if I can give you an answer or if anyone else can. But if you don't understand something, at least give someone here a chance... I also said if you have it set in your heart and want to believe that the Bible does have contradictions, then nothing we say is going to matter. If that's the case, don't waste your time nor anyone else's.
 

BibleScribe

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Hey FHII

Thanks for the note back. I hope that all those who seek the face of GOD should find the fullness of fellowship as provided by 2 Timothy 4:2. For such is the edification of the saints. :)


And regarding the 153 fish, I would agree that mathematical gymnastics have never proven their merit, but GOD has provided that specific number for a specific reason, -- and it ain't what my truly favorite radio preacher assigned this morning during the drive to work. :)


With Abundant Blessings,
BibleScribe
 

BibleScribe

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OK, I've got one from the old-men coffee on Saturday mornings:


Matthew 3:17 (ESV)

[sup]17[/sup]and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."


Mark 1:11 (ESV)

[sup]11[/sup]And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."


Luke 3:22 (ESV)

[sup]22[/sup]and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."



The ~contradiction~ is whether GOD was talking to the audience or to Jesus.

And of course, while I can defend this ~contradiction~, I present it before this Forum audience for their purview.


BibleScribe
 

THE Gypsy

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OK, I've got one from the old-men coffee on Saturday mornings:


Matthew 3:17 (ESV)

[sup]17[/sup]and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."


Mark 1:11 (ESV)

[sup]11[/sup]And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."


Luke 3:22 (ESV)

[sup]22[/sup]and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."



The ~contradiction~ is whether GOD was talking to the audience or to Jesus.

And of course, while I can defend this ~contradiction~, I present it before this Forum audience for their purview.


BibleScribe



IMO...That's not a "contradiction" it's a "recollection". If 4 people witness an accident, I guarantee you're going to get 4 different stories. They may well all agree "There was an accident", however, their "recollection" of the details are going to vary, and in the end, it doesn't change the fact that there was indeed an accident.
 
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Robbie

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No... you said not to post anything in a challenging manner... haha... sounds like something you'd hear from a man who sees themselves as the teacher... "Don't challenge me" haha... and that if we were trying to prove a point we were going to doubt any explanation... give me a break guy... the whole purpose of this thread was because you want to challenge people and prove a point because you have doubts about what others believe... yet you tell others to come into your thread without challenges or to prove a point because that will cause doubts in them... double standards much?

It's just you trying to set yourself up as the teacher and others as the student... and for me no thanks... I don't need you to teach me... I have Christ...

Fellowship is about equality not hierarchy... as the only teacher is Christ... and we're all His students... that is unless we've been deceived into becoming the students of man...

I agree with you gypsy... I don't see any of those things as contradictions worth mentioning... just people remembering things different... like there's the thing with Peter denying the Lord before the rooster crows... one person remembers it this way... another person remembers it that way... does it matter? No... the principle is what matters... and that is the same... that Peter had an ego about how he would follow Jesus to his death... Christ told Peter what was going to happen and how he was going to deny Him... and then it did happen... and even though Peter had denied the Lord the Lord's grace restored him...
 

BibleScribe

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...
It's just you trying to set yourself up as the teacher and others as the student... and for me no thanks... I don't need you to teach me... I have Christ...

Actually the gifts to the church include teachers.

Ephesians 4:11 (ESV)

[sup]11[/sup]And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,

As such you are at risk for 1 Cor. 12:21.


... just people remembering things different...


Once again I would strongly disagree. I would propose that Scripture doesn't need someone sweeping up behind it, making excuses for ~contradictions~.. It is absolutely PERFECT as Written. -- So maybe the church DOES need a "teacher". :)


BibleScribe
 

Robbie

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I don't really care what it says in Corinthians... Corinthians isn't my foundation... Christ is... and He said not to call anyone Teacher but Him... and Christ is my Foundation and Teacher...

And what are you disagreeing with me about? If it wasn't remembered differently why in Mark does it say that Jesus said it would be "before the rooster crowed twice" and in the other three it says before the rooster crows? Did it happen more than once? Is Mark intentionally misquoting Jesus? are the other three wrong? or is it simply remembered different?
 

BibleScribe

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I don't really care what it says in Corinthians...


Your statement is not a good omen. It's usually what people say when they are in rebellion against GOD, -- more typically expressed as ~"I only believe the words in red."~

Scripture is provided as GOD's Word to the Church, and if you don't like all of it, then I would propose you like none of it.


BibleScribe
 

Prentis

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I wish to say two things. I know I was one of those you guys thought of when you started this thread :lol:

In love, my brothers, I want to explain and clarify where I stand...

I do not believe there is error in the Bible (not to say all translations are perfect, if any as a matter of fact). I believe the the Bible is God's word in the sense that it is what God has spoken. I think it's a great tool to instruct in righteousness, and a great tool for the spirit to teach us or confirm something to us.

As for contradictions. This is hard to explain. Firstly, I will not argue over it as I think it is not important compared to the point above and most of all the point below that I will write. I see in the Bible contradictions, ie "Judge NO man", yet "a spiritual man judges all things". I do not believe these are errors. But I believe that they are contradictory and online harmonized in the Spirit. I understand it like this: when the light is green, you drive, and when the light is red you stop. That's the spirit. The Bible simply tells you both rules "when it's red stop, and when it's green drive". But if you just read the part that says 'stop' or just the part that says 'drive', you might not do it right. If you say 'no, it's all in harmony', I would say 'in the spirit, yes'. Again, I dont want to argue over this. I have seen it to be of no edification to the brethren, I find, and so I dont see the point. :)

Now the more important point. The Bible is not God itself, only one of his tools. He works by his Spirit and wishes to transform us into his image. It was true of the Pharisees that they "searched the scriptures, and in them they thought they found life", but when the living son of God came down, they rejected him. Which is why we need the Spirit. We are to be led of the Spirit and walking by the Spirit.

The Lord bless you all! :)
 

BibleScribe

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Hi Prentis,

Using your analogy, I would propose that if stop lights were intelligent, they'd be green all the time. And if two vehicles happen to approach the intersection at the same time, then and only then -- one would receive a red light.

And so I would argue that Matthew, Mark, and Luke are all three green lights. We merely must grasp how this works. And I have absolutely no problem with that explanation.


But if someone wants to use man's logic, then clearly Daniel 1:21 ~must be extended~ to three years (which never applied), to reconcile Daniel 10:1. And THIS IS UNSCRIPTURAL. -- For only a fool would dare to ~correct~ GOD's Word.


BibleScribe
 

Robbie

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haha... The only way I can be in rebellion against God is if I'm in rebellion against Jesus... and I'm in agreement with Jesus... He is my only teacher... I only call Him teacher... it's what He said to believe... yet you accuse me of being in rebellion against God because I believe Him...

So tell me biblescribe... since you accused me of being in rebellion against God...

Do you call anyone else your teacher? Because if you do you are in rebellion against Christ...

You want to judge... there's your judgment...

And what about the rest? Why do you strongly disagree with me again biblescribe expert guy? haha
 

Rach1370

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I wish to say two things. I know I was one of those you guys thought of when you started this thread :lol:

In love, my brothers, I want to explain and clarify where I stand...

I do not believe there is error in the Bible (not to say all translations are perfect, if any as a matter of fact). I believe the the Bible is God's word in the sense that it is what God has spoken. I think it's a great tool to instruct in righteousness, and a great tool for the spirit to teach us or confirm something to us.

As for contradictions. This is hard to explain. Firstly, I will not argue over it as I think it is not important compared to the point above and most of all the point below that I will write. I see in the Bible contradictions, ie "Judge NO man", yet "a spiritual man judges all things". I do not believe these are errors. But I believe that they are contradictory and online harmonized in the Spirit. I understand it like this: when the light is green, you drive, and when the light is red you stop. That's the spirit. The Bible simply tells you both rules "when it's red stop, and when it's green drive". But if you just read the part that says 'stop' or just the part that says 'drive', you might not do it right. If you say 'no, it's all in harmony', I would say 'in the spirit, yes'. Again, I dont want to argue over this. I have seen it to be of no edification to the brethren, I find, and so I dont see the point. :)

Now the more important point. The Bible is not God itself, only one of his tools. He works by his Spirit and wishes to transform us into his image. It was true of the Pharisees that they "searched the scriptures, and in them they thought they found life", but when the living son of God came down, they rejected him. Which is why we need the Spirit. We are to be led of the Spirit and walking by the Spirit.

The Lord bless you all! :)

This is a great explanation Prentis! It certainly helps seeing where you are coming from, thanks! I really don't think there are 'contradictions' within scripture, but yes, there are passages that take a greater understanding to work through them. I truly believe, however, that once we do, that God uses them to reveal something important and wonderful to us. I really like your 'red light, green light' analogy, that it's the Spirit's work that brings those 'rules' to life within us.
Here's something I've been pondering over, that I think is similar. We are told in scripture that Satan is the great accuser. And yet we are also told that the Holy Spirit convicts us. So how do we figure out who is pointing a finger at us?? My thought is that being convicted by the Spirit should bring a sort of joy with it. You know, 'thank you God, for loving me enough to point out this thing I need to work on'. But that isn't spelt out in a big way in the bible...it's something that we rely on the HS to reveal to us.
The bible is a precious book of guidelines and road maps for us and I love it, but truly, without the Holy Spirit within us, it won't do us any good.
Nice chatting with you Prentis!
 

Duckybill

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I do not believe there is error in the Bible (not to say all translations are perfect, if any as a matter of fact). I believe the the Bible is God's word in the sense that it is what God has spoken.
You wrote: "The Bible is full of contradictions."
 

FHII

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OK, I've got one from the old-men coffee on Saturday mornings:


Matthew 3:17 (ESV)

[sup]17[/sup]and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."


Mark 1:11 (ESV)

[sup]11[/sup]And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."


Luke 3:22 (ESV)

[sup]22[/sup]and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."



The ~contradiction~ is whether GOD was talking to the audience or to Jesus.

And of course, while I can defend this ~contradiction~, I present it before this Forum audience for their purview.


BibleScribe
It appears to me that God was talking to the audience. He was announcing Jesus' ministry was now begun. I say this because if the Lord only meant it for Jesus, He (the Father) wasn't telling him something Jesus didn't already know. Recall that when Jesus was around 12, Mary and Joseph went looking for him, and they found him in the temple. Jesus replied to their questions "I was in my Father's house." (paraphrasing). Also, John the Baptist commented that he had need to be Baptized of Jesus. Jesus on the other hand, shook it off, and said, "Suffer it for now..." In other words, "I know... But just go with it..." These things indicate to me that Jesus already knew who he was, and didn't need to be informed of such. The world did, though, and especially John. He knew at that point his job was done.
 

Groundzero

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It's just you trying to set yourself up as the teacher and others as the student... and for me no thanks... I don't need you to teach me... I have Christ...

Robbie, if you don't need anyone else but Jesus, fine, but at least give us some peace! All you do is rattle away about the same subject time and time again. Unless you can contribute something to the current topic, please keep it to a minimum!

haha... The only way I can be in rebellion against God is if I'm in rebellion against Jesus... and I'm in agreement with Jesus... He is my only teacher... I only call Him teacher... it's what He said to believe... yet you accuse me of being in rebellion against God because I believe Him...

So tell me biblescribe... since you accused me of being in rebellion against God...

Do you call anyone else your teacher? Because if you do you are in rebellion against Christ...

You want to judge... there's your judgment...

And what about the rest? Why do you strongly disagree with me again biblescribe expert guy? haha

Alright Robbie. So you have absolutely NO role models?! No one who you look up to?! Get real! What about Paul saying, "Follow me as I follow Christ?" (1Co_11:1). Oh, I understand. We don't have to worry about the Bible, since Jesus is all that matters! Stick to the OP, or start your own topic on the issue!
 

FHII

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No... you said not to post anything in a challenging manner... haha... sounds like something you'd hear from a man who sees themselves as the teacher... "Don't challenge me" haha... and that if we were trying to prove a point we were going to doubt any explanation... give me a break guy... the whole purpose of this thread was because you want to challenge people and prove a point because you have doubts about what others believe... yet you tell others to come into your thread without challenges or to prove a point because that will cause doubts in them... double standards much?

It's just you trying to set yourself up as the teacher and others as the student... and for me no thanks... I don't need you to teach me... I have Christ...

Fellowship is about equality not hierarchy... as the only teacher is Christ... and we're all His students... that is unless we've been deceived into becoming the students of man...

I agree with you gypsy... I don't see any of those things as contradictions worth mentioning... just people remembering things different... like there's the thing with Peter denying the Lord before the rooster crows... one person remembers it this way... another person remembers it that way... does it matter? No... the principle is what matters... and that is the same... that Peter had an ego about how he would follow Jesus to his death... Christ told Peter what was going to happen and how he was going to deny Him... and then it did happen... and even though Peter had denied the Lord the Lord's grace restored him...

Robbie, there's a big difference in what I said and what you say I said. Let's look back:

"There has been a rash of charges lately that the Bible has contradictions. I’d like to address any of them and invite others who believe that the Bible doesn’t have contradictions to join me. I’d also like to invite those who believe the Bible has contradictions to openly present them. Not in a challenging manner; if you are looking to prove your point, you are going to come into any explanation already with doubt. If you already have the opinion that the Bible has error and contradictions, and you don’t want to believe otherwise, then go on your own way. No hard feelings, but I’m not going to able to help you."

I didn't merely say, don't post anything in a challenging manner. I did say to openly present them, but not in a challenging manner. I go on to explain that if you are just looking to prove your point, and thus the Bible wrong, you are going to believe what you already believe anyway. So don't waste your time or mine. I did not say that with an attitude of "I'm a teacher believe what I say and don't challenge me." It was done reaching out with an invitation to others who believe the Bible doesn't have contradictions to discuss them with you if you want a possible explanation.

So, if you actually did present something that you believe is contradictory, would you consider our explanation if we could give one? I'm not asking you if you would believe it, I am asking you if you would consider it. Frankly, I don't think you have it in you to even ask. I say, bring your doubt if you'd like, bring your contradictions. But at least listen and consider the answers if I or we have any. My belief is your mind is set, and you are happy not having the Bible stop you.

You say, "You are trying to replace Jesus with a book." It appears to me that you are trying to replace his testimony with your own. But the invitation is still open if you have a willing heart.