Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Bible Highlighter]

Is your salvation supposedly so holey that the perfect work of Christ at the Cross is supposedly never good enough and sufficient for you?

If you are to properly apply the sacrifice to your life, you need to apply 1 John 1:7 instead of just believing in the atoning sacrifice according to Romans 3:25.

1 John 1:7 says “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

According to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11, walking in the light = loving your brother.
In other words, you need to love your brother (walk in the light) also in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse you from all sin.

 

[Truman]

Believe whatever you want...I really don't care
The Lord has set me free from man's religious snares.
If you want to believe that when you are obeying the Lord, you are saved, but when you are not, you aren't, knock yourself out.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Prove that I said that.

You asked how many sins did Jesus redeem when He went to the cross. You are suggesting that Jesus died for all sins. I asked this question because many falsely think that Jesus paid for all our future sins because they are still yet in the future from his perspective. But if that is the case, then all would be saved (i.e. Universalism). But we know that is a false doctrine.

Your kind loves to add and subtract to the written Scripture or what others have written.

Asking a question about what you believe is not adding to what you said. It's merely a question. But it was a question asked to show you the false road in your line of thinking. As for my kind adding or subtracting from Scripture. You would need to have evidence of me doing this. So just saying so does not mean anything.

FYI, Jesus died only for those whom the Father gave to Him in eternity past before the foundation of the world. [John 6:37].

Ah, so you believe in the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement. If so then why did Peter say that there were false teachers who denied the Lord who bought them in 2 Peter 2:1?

To love my brother yes.

Loving your brother is in our actions and not just by our affections alone. So this means you have to act and or live by a moral code of conduct as a part of salvation. This is what 1 John 1:7 is saying (Which runs contrary to your previous statement).

Romans 10 is another issue. It seems you have no knowledge of what it means. So sad! Hosea 4:6.

To God Be The Glory

That's not really convincing me of your position. What's the point of quoting these portions of Scripture for my benefit or others?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Believe whatever you want...I really don't care
The Lord has set me free from man's religious snares.
If you want to believe that when you are obeying the Lord, you are saved, but when you are not, you aren't, knock yourself out.

Is the Bible your sole guide for all matters of faith and practice?
Or is it your experience and or what you feel?

 

[Truman]

What bothers me is when a stranger comes along and starts with, "You must do this" or "You must do that." Like they're the only one who knows anything. There's no humility. How about, "This is what I believe," and then listen to what someone else has to say. Later.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Great Romans 8 passage there, @Truman...

The two words you will not find in Romans 8:37-39 is “you” or “your sin.” In this passage it is referring to external forces and not ourselves or our own wrong choices. Jesus says certain sins can condemn us (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, etcetera).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What bothers me is when a stranger comes along and starts with, "You must do this" or "You must do that." Like they're the only one who knows anything. There's no humility. How about, "This is what I believe," and then listen to what someone else has to say. Later.

The Bible is Scripture. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16). So if a person tells you something that is true in the Bible for you to do (like say loving your neighbor or God), then it is true and good. As a spiritual guide: Christians follow the Bible, and not their own opinions or thoughts alone.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I think the issue is... do people want a Holy Bible (a divine book), or a holey bible (a book full of holes)?
I say this because folks tend to focus a laser beam on what appears to be OSAS verses and yet they seem to twist, dodge, duck, ignore any verses that would refute OSAS. For when we present verses that refute OSAS, it's like they are not hearing the Bible as a whole. They have a holey bible that is full of holes and they keep only the parts that they like in it.

Do you not realize that the adherents to OSAS think about YOU the same way that You think of US ?”

 

[Truman]

I'm not OSAS. I'm not a Calvinist. I barely even know what that means. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ. I read my bible, have for decades, I've got good grounding through a ministry the Lord led me to 22 years ago. I partially relate to many denominations and groups. The Lord recently showed me my Hebrew roots.
I've been baptized with the Holy Spirit and I speak in tongues. I don't call myself anything but a disciple of Christ. I haven't been part of a congregation for years, not by choice. Due to my health, I am housebound and these online forums are my fellowship.
If I was respected, I'd consider what others have to say. But I'm not, so I can't. I don't cherry pick scripture and I don't go around making snap judgements about the faith of others. I try to respect others and not push what I believe on them, trying to prove myself right in the process.
I've found involvement in these groups abusive. Unfortunately, this has had a negative effect on me. What about this?
"…2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3and with diligence to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;…"
- Ephesians 4:2-4

 

[mailmandan]

That sad you would stoop so low to make false accusations Danthemailman.

It's sad that I would stoop so low to make false accusations? Pot calling the kettle black.

Now that you have attacked my character and are purposely hurting my reputation.

Oh the irony.

You need to give evidence of your accusations.

Already have.

Where have I slandered you?

You are teaching we are saved by a faith that is dead

You need to stop making up definitions for the word justification. You are inserting your ideas into the text.

Danthemailman, is possibly unaware that he is teaching, calvinism.

You teach two kinds of faith alone:
1. First faith is alone without obedience. This faith alone cannot save.
2. This also is faith alone. But this faith also without obedience does save. Because supposedly it trusts God.

The second definition of faith you give is also dead. Because it has no obedience (works).
Since your second definition is dead because it is absent of obedience.
It cannot have trust as you mistakenly claim it has.

I know the gospel it is obvious it requires obedience.

You know a "different" gospel that requires obedience/works as a 'supplement' to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ in order to help Christ save us. Here is a quote below from someone who also attends the church of Christ.

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

The act of obedience that the gospel requires is that we choose to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 10:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) The gospel is hid to those who are lost and don't believe the gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

1John 3:23-24.

1 John 3:23 - This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who "keeps" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Those who are born of God "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments.

Also Mark 16:15-16.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Jesus commands obedience to the gospel Sir.

Jesus did not teach salvation by works. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. *Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

2Thessalonians 1:8,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Seeking to obtain salvation by works is not obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ, but is obeying a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9) Once again, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16) When will you believe?

 

[mailmandan]

I agree, there is no faith only salvation.

There is no faith only salvation (per James) - empty profession of faith/dead faith that 'remains alone' - barren of works. That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, is alive in Christ, created in Christ Jesus for good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

So why are you in a religion that teaches salvation by faith and no works to Gods commandments to be saved?

We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) so why are you in a religion that teaches salvation by faith and works? Do you prefer to boast in your works? Are you seeking glory and honor for yourself?

Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

 

[mailmandan]

If you are to properly apply the sacrifice to your life, you need to apply 1 John 1:7 instead of just believing in the atoning sacrifice according to Romans 3:25.

1 John 1:7 says “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

According to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11, walking in the light = loving your brother.
In other words, you need to love your brother (walk in the light) also in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse you from all sin.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. Verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected to children of the devil.

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:21,
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Was Abraham's faith accounted to him for righteousness before or after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? (Genesis 15:6) Was Abraham accounted as righteous by faith or by works? (Romans 4:2-3)

Danthemailman's interpretation of James 2:24 is disproved by James 2:21.

Not at all and your interpretation of James 2:24 is disproved by Romans 4:2-3.

The reason is, No man was present when Abraham was going to sacrifice his Son Isaac on the altar to God.
Abraham was doing obedient works.
Only God and His angels were present.
So, only God justified Abraham by His works.
No man was there to observe Abraham's work of faith.
This is why Dan's explanation of justification by works is in error.

It doesn't matter if men were present or not to witness Abraham offering up his Son Isaac on the altar to God. God and His angels were present to see and men today can read about Abraham in the Bible to see that he was accounted as righteous by his faith (Romans 4:2-3) and shown to be righteous by his works. (James 2:21) No error on my part. Why do you continue to fight against the truth? Is it that important for you to believe that you will be saved by works so you can boast? This is a pride issue.

James 2:18, does not equate with justification by obedience in James 2:21 and James 2:24.

We are shown to be righteous, but not accounted as righteous by works. Period.

James taught no one is justified by faith only.

And for the umpteenth time, faith only (per James) = "empty profession of faith/dead faith that 'remains alone' - barren of works." That is not genuine faith but a "bare profession of faith."

*Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, is alive in Christ, created in Christ Jesus for good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) The natural man just cannot understand.

We only receive Gods justification by faith that obeys Gods commandments.

So is it 50% faith and 50% obeying God's commandments that causes us to be justified/accounted as righteous/saved? Believers keep God's commandments BECAUSE they have been justified by faith and not in order to become justified by faith. You place the cart before the horse and continue to teach salvation by faith AND WORKS in contraction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

 

[mailmandan]

If I am correct in Dan’s understanding, he believes James 2:18 is a definition for “works justification” which he believes is different than the kind of “justification” that is related to faith (a belief alone) (i.e. belief alone justification).

But this kind of interpretation does not work because the same word “justification” is used for both faith and works in James 2:24.

My interpretation works just fine because we are not justified (accounted as righteous) by works. *Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (So here we see that Abraham was not justified "accounted as righteous" by works) 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. We are justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains 'alone' - barren of works. (James 2:14)

*You just admitted that you believe "justified by works" in James 2:24 means "accounted as righteous" (in contradiction with Romans 4:2-3) so you just admitted that you teach salvation by works and I knew it all along. You are busted.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

See my response to your poor choice of passages to defend your misinterpretation of James 2:24.

James 2:24,
-You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Question, who is doing the justifying Danthemailman?

God or man?

Question:
When is man justified?
Before obedience to Jesus ie faith only.
Or
After faith and works of obedience to Jesus?

Read James 2:20

excuse me sir

Was abraham justified in Gen 15 when he was declared righteous by God. or did God wait until Gen 22 when he offered his son?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes you are correct,
James most certainly teaches that godly living,
Does in fact show others our righteous living by our works.

But James 2:24 is teaching HOW we are justified.
James most certainly teaches we are justified by our works not by faith only.

Danthemailman, perverts this passage to fit his false doctrine of salvation by no works just belief.

Danthemailman's, work around this passage is to claim,
This is not literal. But figurative speech by James,

In a figurative way James is supposedly teaching,
That by our works men see our faith and justify us as righteous.

He tries to tie James 2:18 to James 2:24 as an outward sign of our faith to others.

He is only partly right.
Right with James 2:18.
Wrong with,
James 2:24.
As I taught him, only God is the justifier of men.
That is the true teaching of James in verses,
James 2:21 and James 2:24.

No. It is not teaching that

It is teaching that people who CLAIM to have faith. But have no changed life. were not justified. Because they had no living faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

To all:

When encountered with the many verses that refute OSAS, the OSAS Proponent will throw aside these many verses as referring to unbelievers and not believers (out of context) in order to protect their preferred pet doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

Here is a good article for any truth seeker.

Scriptures that prove OSAS is not the truth at all.

It will explain the false misunderstandings or claims of OSAS proponents misuse of Scripture when they are faced with verses that refute OSAS.
I would encourage any believer fighting against OSAS to read this article. The grammar is not always the best, but they provide some great explanations that defend the truth of God’s Word in what it plainly says. It explains away many of the OSAS Proponents false misunderstandings on verses that they believe is in reference to unbelievers.

Excuse me sir.

You have not refuted eternal life is given to all who believe. You have not refuted that we are sealed with the HS UNTIL the day of redemption. YOu have not refuted that we will never die. nor that Jesus will never forsake us.

All you have done is spout a bunch of passages out of context to support your works based self righteous gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

Excuse me sir.

You have not refuted eternal life is given to all who believe. You have not refuted that we are sealed with the HS UNTIL the day of redemption. YOu have not refuted that we will never die. nor that Jesus will never forsake us.

All you have done is spout a bunch of passages out of context to support your works based self righteous gospel.

You nailed it!

 

[Happy Trails]

Well, I am not striving against the Law, friend. A brief one quick rebuttal is not striving or endlessly arguing against their position on keeping the Old Law (or the 613 Laws of Moses).

Striving means this:

Strive or striving means to make great efforts. It means to struggle or fight vigorously.

Source:
STRIVE English Definition and Meaning | Lexico.com

I did not make any great efforts or struggle and fight vigorously against their position involving the Law.

Your signature is the definition of striving against the Law. The basis of your theology is "against the Law."

The reality is "loving God is keeping his Commandments." 1 John 5:3

That is how God defines loving him.

But, you define it however you want.

 

[Titus]

excuse me sir

Was abraham justified in Gen 15 when he was declared righteous by God. or did God wait until Gen 22 when he offered his son?

Good question.
According to James Abraham was not justified by faith alone.
Which Dan, completely missed what James is teaching on Abraham.
Listen to James tell you when Abraham was justified.
Was it by faith alone?
Or
When he believed and did obedient works by obeying God?
James 2:21,
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

-22 Seest thou how belief wrought with his works was faith made perfect?

Next verse answers your question,
-23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.

-24 You see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone.

Danthemailman unfortunately does not see what James is trying to teach him.

James in verse 23 quotes Genesis 15:6!
It is so obvious that those who allow the scriptures to speak for themselves see James taught Abraham was not righteous and justified until he had a faith that obeyed God by doing works of obedience.

Genesis 15:6,
-and he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

As I have desperately tried to teach you and Dan,
"I really like Dan btw.
I think he is a good man who is trying to follow the Bible.
He has just been confused about the true gospel thanks to catholism".

That James is teaching Abraham had an obedient faith. Never faith with no obedience.

Before Genesis 15:6, Abraham had already put his faith in action by obeying God,
Look,
Genesis 12:1,
-Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country and from thy kindred, and from thy father's
house, unto a land that I will shew thee.

Did Abraham's faith have no obedience before Genesis 15:6? No!

Genesis 12:4
- So Abraham departed, as the Lord had spoken him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Abraham always had an obedient works faith friend! That is the faith that God accounted Abraham as righteous! Not a dead disobedient faith with no works, James 2:20.

Hebrews 11:8-9,
By faith Abraham when he was called to go out into a place which he should after recieve for an inheritance, obeyed God and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
-9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise.

Friend, Biblical saving faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ, is an obedient faith, It has works!
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys!

James 2:17,
-Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead being alone.

I have asked Danthemailman to show me where James teaches faith alone is not dead.
He cannot. James only teaches faith without works is dead.
Danthemailman has to insert into the scriptures his false interpretation of faith alone being the saving faith James is supposedly teaching.
This is error.