Paul taught that revelation 20:4 is a present reality

[ewq1938]

Except that you corrected nothing.

I did correct you. You said, "are judged (Greek word means condemned)". And that wasn't true. It can mean to condemn but it can mean the opposite as well like a judgment of reward.

 

[ewq1938]

LOL. Nothing is more ludicrous than trying to claim that a SYMBOLIC sword can be used to literally, physically kill people.

Which means you do not believe what God says in Revelation 19. This does not come as a surprise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did correct you. You said, "are judged (Greek word means condemned)". And that wasn't true. It can mean to condemn but it can mean the opposite as well like a judgment of reward.

I wasn't really intending to say that the word can only ever mean condemned. I didn't say that, actually. But, I conclude that it does mean that in Revelation 11:18 because the dead who are judged are contrasted with God's servants who are rewarded.

But, regardless of all that, it says the seventh trumpet signals that it is the time for the dead to be judged. And the dead are shown being judged in Revelation 20:11-15 which obviously occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season. There's no way around that. The same Greek word translated as "judged" in Revelation 11:18 is the one translated as "judged" in Revelation 20 verses 12 and 13, also.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which means you do not believe what God says in Revelation 19. This does not come as a surprise.

This is typical of you. You have nothing to refute what I say, so you resort to false accusations. I ABSOLUTELY DO believe what God says in Revelation 19. Don't ever tell me that I don't believe what He says in His Word. I simply interpret it differently than you. We agree that Jesus will destroy His enemies when He returns. We just disagree on how He will do it (and disagree on how many of His enemies He will destroy at that time).

You ludicrously believe that He will somehow use a non-literal, SYMBOLIC sword to slay His enemies while I refer to other, literal scripture to see how He will destroy His enemies and those say He will do it with fire. And you noticeably have not explained how it is possible for Him to literally, physically kill His enemies with a SYMBOLIC sword despite me asking you to do that several times now. Do you just not have any answer to the question? Is that why you aren't answering it?

 

[ewq1938]

I wasn't really intending to say that the word can only ever mean condemned. I didn't say that, actually. But, I conclude that it does mean that in Revelation 11:18 because the dead who are judged are contrasted with God's servants who are rewarded.

It's not a contrast. It is the saved dead that are judged and rewarded. The unsaved are judged and punished at a later time.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.


Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.

 

[ewq1938]

This is typical of you. You have nothing to refute what I say, so you resort to false accusations. I ABSOLUTELY DO believe what God says in Revelation 19. Don't ever tell me that I don't believe what He says in His Word. I simply interpret it differently than you.

You don't believe there is a sword there so you "interpret" the sword out of the passage so you can turn it into fire.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you trying to say that what is described in Revelation 20:11-15, which is the same event as described in Daniel 7:9-11, has been happening since the beginning?

What happens in Revelation 20 is the GWT outside of creation and time. What is talked about in Daniel is the same throne, just at Daniel's time in creation. At the Cross and ascension, the OT redeemed joined that throng Daniel recorded. At the Second Coming, those on earth alive will join that multitude. The NT church has been joining as an ongoing phenomenon since the Cross. Daniel did not see the throne outside of creation, and there is no proof of the exact time Daniel saw the throne in a vision. You always point out Revelation is too figurative and symbolic. Daniel is even more so. Are you really trying to use Daniel to prove some point?

If you claim they are the same event, they are not.

In Daniel 7 there is still time. In Revelation 20, there is no time at all.

 

[Truth7t7]

In Daniel 7 there is still time. In Revelation 20, there is no time at all.

Daniel 7:10 & Revelation 20:12 below is the same event in the final judgement, same books are opened

Daniel 7:10KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation 20:11-12KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not a contrast. It is the saved dead that are judged and rewarded. The unsaved are judged and punished at a later time.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.

That is referring to the CURRENT authority that believers (both dead and alive) have as priests in His kingdom, which is referred to in Revelation 1:5-6.

Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You have to be kidding me here. Did you somehow miss that the saved and unsaved are gathered for judgment at the same time which will be when Christ returns, as is indicated in the verses you didn't bother quoting (Matthew 25:31-33)? It doesn't matter that the saved and unsaved are separated into two groups. They are still judged at the same general time right after Christ returns. You are once again blatantly twisting scripture to fit your doctrine.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

There is no indication whatsoever in Matthew 25:31-46 that the wicked are judged 1,000+ years after the righteous. If that was the case then it wouldn't talk about them being gathered for judgment at the same time, but it does.

Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.

You're not even thinking here. Your extreme bias is blinding you. How is it even possible for the saved and unsaved to be gathered for judgment AT THE SAME TIME, as Matthew 25:31-46 indicates, but then judged 1,000+ years apart? That is complete nonsense.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.

Are you somehow missing that Peter indicated that the time had already come back then? Is there any verses in scripture that you won't twist to fit your view? Since Peter was talking about something that was already happening then, that means he was not talking in terms of judgment day which will occur when Christ returns in the future.

 

[Timtofly]

No, that can't be right. It very specifically says that the seventh trumpet signals that it's the time of the dead being judged. Revelation 20:11-15 describes the dead being judged and that occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season.

The dead in Revelation 11 is symbolic of those walking around on earth.

"Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth."

Revelation 20 is the judgment after the dead have been in Death for 1,000 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't believe there is a sword there so you "interpret" the sword out of the passage so you can turn it into fire.

It's not a real, literal sword. It's a symbolic sword. Didn't you acknowledge that yourself? Explain how a non-literal, non-physical sword can kill people. It can't. That's what a literal, physical sword does. But, it's not talking about a literal, physical sword. What is so hard to understand about this?

 

[Timtofly]

You will clearly twist any scripture you need to in order to make it fit your doctrine.

So twisting the symbolism of a sword into meaning fire from heaven is OK, as long as one claims to be Amil?

Does this mean that in Revelation 20, Jesus leaves the camp of the saints with a sword in His mouth, as your interpretation is interchangeable? Jesus is sitting on the throne of His Glory at this point, in the camp of the saints.

Except that you corrected nothing. It says the dead will be judged at the last trumpet and the dead are shown as being judged after the thousand years and Satan's little season. You are trying any way you can to get around that, but it can't be done. And you noticeably are ignoring the fact that the dead who are judged are contrasted with the servants who are rewarded.

Most of the time, the Greek word krinō means condemned when used in scripture. Just look it up for yourself and see. Here are some examples where the the Greek word krinō is used (everywhere where I bolded the English word):

Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 12:47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Acts 13:27 The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath.

Do you have a habit of judging those already in the grave? Or do you judge those you claim are not spiritually discerned?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The dead in Revelation 11 is symbolic of those walking around on earth.

"Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth."

Revelation 20 is the judgment after the dead have been in Death for 1,000 years.

LOL. Such nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So twisting the symbolism of a sword into meaning fire from heaven is OK, as long as one claims to be Amil?

Do you not understand that what symbols represent in reality doesn't have to resemble the symbols? For example, Satan is described as a dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Does that describe his literal appearance at all? Of course not. So, a symbolic sword does not have to be understood in the same way as a literal sword.

Does this mean that in Revelation 20, Jesus leaves the camp of the saints with a sword in His mouth, as your interpretation is interchangeable? Jesus is sitting on the throne of His Glory at this point, in the camp of the saints.

You're asking an Amil a question that could only apply to a Premil. You're not even thinking here. Why would you ask me a question relating to a belief that I don't even have (of Jesus being on His throne on the earth)?

Do you have a habit of judging those already in the grave? Or do you judge those you claim are not spiritually discerned?

I don't judge anyone in terms of determining their eternal destiny. That's Jesus's job.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

 

[Timtofly]

Daniel 7:10 & Revelation 20:12 below is the same event in the final judgement, same books are opened

Daniel 7:10KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation 20:11-12KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The books are opened right now, this very minute. How do you think your works and all the works of those living today are being written down if the books are closed? The books have been opened since Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden. Adam's entry was the first recorded. As pointed out the books have always been opened, and being recorded to. The GWT has always been the throne God has been sitting on since the beginning of creation. God does not just show up at the very end sitting on a throne with books opened. That has been the same reality since creation.

You all seem to accept we are currently sitting in heavenly places judging all things. Judgment is ongoing and constant. There were thrones set in judgment already in verse 4.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

Don't Amil place this back at the Cross or first century? Could you not apply Daniel 7 to that event you claim already happened an indefinite 1,000 years ago? If there was judgment set back then, how can you honestly claim a single judgment?

For one, you as a soul in Adam's dead flesh are not supposed to judge any one. So if you sit in judgment at all, it will be in your permanent incorruptible body, after you pass from death into life. If you claim that Paul declares we do judge now, the church is doing that in Paradise now, and since the Cross. No souls are waiting to judge at one final last judgment. It has already been happening since the Cross.

Second the 24 elders, if they are literally in heaven, were there after they lived on earth. If 12 of them were in Abraham's bosom, are they still there, or are you going to allow them to actually be in Paradise in God's presence since the Cross? So literally judgment was set around the GWT since the Cross. My point was Daniel did not mention specifics, which may or may not have yet happened, so jumping to conclusions about the timing is not a strong argument.

Daniel had visions of kingdoms up until the Romans. Why does any modern day eschatology try to force Daniel as viewing modern day governments? You all should realize that Daniel had a 500 year range. It has been 2500 years since then. Revelation is not even about all that has happened in the last 1900 years. Revelation only covers the events of the Second Coming, the future Millennium, and the NHNE. Revelation is not about the first century, not even Revelation 20:4. That resurrection and judgment has not happened yet, no matter how many times an Amil posts or literally claims their erroneous jumping to conclusions.

Yes, when Abraham's bosom was emptied and those souls entered Paradise, judgment was set and thrones set up. Paul declares the church is now sitting in Judgment. The 24 elders have been around the throne for at least 1900 years. The books have always been opened.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The books are opened right now, this very minute. How do you think your works and all the works of those living today are being written down if the books are closed? The books have been opened since Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden. Adam's entry was the first recorded. As pointed out the books have always been opened, and being recorded to. The GWT has always been the throne God has been sitting on since the beginning of creation. God does not just show up at the very end sitting on a throne with books opened. That has been the same reality since creation.

So, you think the timing of both Daniel 7:9-10 and Revelation 20:11-15 goes back to Adam and Eve then? If not, then what you're saying here makes no sense at all because what you're saying would imply that Revelation 20:11-15, which refers to the books being opened and people then being judged, does not happen after the thousand years and Satan's little season as Revelation 20 indicates, but instead already started happening from the beginning of mankind.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you not understand that what symbols represent in reality doesn't have to resemble the symbols? For example, Satan is described as a dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Does that describe his literal appearance at all? Of course not. So, a symbolic sword does not have to be understood in the same way as a literal sword.

You're asking an Amil a question that could only apply to a Premil. You're not even thinking here. Why would you ask me a question relating to a belief that I don't even have (of Jesus being on His throne on the earth)?

I don't judge anyone in terms of determining their eternal destiny. That's Jesus's job.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Then you admit that you will never sit in judgment over the dead nor the living?

Can you not discern between those physically alive when they stand in judgment and those physically dead who stand in judgment?

Can you discern between figurative fire and literal fire? Can you discern between a literal sword and a figurative sword?

Exchanging a figurative sword with literal fire, is not an interpretation. It is forcing one's bias onto the Word of God. It does not even make sense in context.

Stating Jesus comes out of the camp of the saints is not based on Amil or pre-mil it is based on context. You make stuff up regardless of context, and then avoid a proper refutation, based on your hurt feelings, you are being misunderstood. If those in the camp of the saints are ruling and reigning with Christ, then context demands Christ is there with them. This is not about the start and finish. This is about context that Christ is there with them. This is about why you are swapping literal fire, or is that figurative fire for a sword or the concept behind why there is even a sword at all.

In Revelation 14 is that a literal sickle or symbolic? Do you think that is fire also to be consistent with you swapping out figurative concepts or literal events and demanding fire be used instead?

Should fire be involved in the 6th Seal? Were these dead people resurrected?

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"

Are these dead people being resurrected?

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Are these dead people being resurrected?

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged"

How can these 3 examples even be the same exact event? In Revelation 11, John was quoting Psalms 2. Are you able to even toss out what parts of Psalm 2 are being addressed, and which are not? Why would not Psalm 2 itself be describing the 7th Trumpet? Was John just borrowing the words, or pointing out Psalm 2 was being fulfilled? I am not even the one pointing out that Revelation quotes hundreds of OT Scripture, that would be Amil. Then you laugh and call God's Word nonsense?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then you admit that you will never sit in judgment over the dead nor the living?

Not in terms of determining their eternal destiny, as I said. That is what Jesus will do. Do you disagree or do you think the eternal destiny of people will be up to you to decide?

Can you not discern between those physically alive when they stand in judgment and those physically dead who stand in judgment?

What is there to discern? Whether someone was dead and has been resurrected or if they are still alive when Jesus returns doesn't matter. Everyone will be judged at that time as evidenced by passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

Can you discern between figurative fire and literal fire?

I sure can. Can you?

Can you discern between a literal sword and a figurative sword?

I sure can. Can you? Is the sword that comes out of Christ's mouth literal or figurative?

Exchanging a figurative sword with literal fire, is not an interpretation. It is forcing one's bias onto the Word of God. It does not even make sense in context.

What does this even mean? You speak complete nonsense sometimes. You might as well be speaking a different language than English here since that would make just as much sense as whatever it is you're saying.

If the sword is figurative then it's clearly not talking about the literal way that people will be killed at Christ's return and is instead describing it figuratively. The figurative description is not required to resemble the reality, as I pointed out before when I gave the example of Satan being figuratively described as a dragon with seven heads and ten horns.

Stating Jesus comes out of the camp of the saints is not based on Amil or pre-mil it is based on context.

What context? There is no context which places Jesus on earth among the camp of the saints in Revelation 20:7-9.

You make stuff up regardless of context, and then avoid a proper refutation, based on your hurt feelings, you are being misunderstood.

LOL. Your incoherent ramblings do nothing to support your cause. They do give me a laugh, though, so thanks for that.

If those in the camp of the saints are ruling and reigning with Christ, then context demands Christ is there with them.

Where does it say those in the camp of the saints are ruling and reigning on earth with Christ? It doesn't. John saw the souls of physically dead Christians reigning with Christ in heaven.

This is not about the start and finish. This is about context that Christ is there with them.

This is about you interpreting the text in isolation without taking other scriptures which teach that Christ is reigning NOW into account.

This is about why you are swapping literal fire, or is that figurative fire for a sword or the concept behind why there is even a sword at all.

What are you trying to say here, that you think Christ will have a literal sword coming out of His mouth that He uses to kill people when He returns? LOL. That does appear to be what you're saying. Are you even thinking? That is ludicrous to think that He would have a literal sword coming out of His mouth when He returns.

In Revelation 14 is that a literal sickle or symbolic?

Symbolic. I don't doubt that you think it's literal.

Do you think that is fire also to be consistent with you swapping out figurative concepts or literal events and demanding fire be used instead?

LOL. What?

Should fire be involved in the 6th Seal? Were these dead people resurrected?

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"

Are these dead people being resurrected?

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Are these dead people being resurrected?

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged"

How can these 3 examples even be the same exact event? In Revelation 11, John was quoting Psalms 2. Are you able to even toss out what parts of Psalm 2 are being addressed, and which are not? Why would not Psalm 2 itself be describing the 7th Trumpet? Was John just borrowing the words, or pointing out Psalm 2 was being fulfilled? I am not even the one pointing out that Revelation quotes hundreds of OT Scripture, that would be Amil. Then you laugh and call God's Word nonsense?

This is what you do. You have no ability whatsoever to make a coherent argument, so you resort to making false accusations of me calling God's Word nonsense. No, I would never do that. But, I have and will continue to call your interpretations of God's Word nonsense.

 

[Timtofly]

So, you think the timing of both Daniel 7:9-10 and Revelation 20:11-15 goes back to Adam and Eve then? If not, then what you're saying here makes no sense at all because what you're saying would imply that Revelation 20:11-15, which refers to the books being opened and people then being judged, does not happen after the thousand years and Satan's little season as Revelation 20 indicates, but instead already started happening from the beginning of mankind.

The books have been opened since Adam. Why would judgment not happen after the Cross? You place Revelation 20:4 at that point. Are you only consistent when you want to be, to make a point, or all the time even if it goes against your own ideology? My point was about the books being opened. You and the poster think judgment has to occur only on the fact "books are opened". That is how the comparison was being made, not on judgment. Now you change the point to there was always judgment? Is that your point now, and not one single judgment at the end? Do you think Adam and Eve were judged in these verses:

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Were their lives drastically changed? Did they recieve the judgment of death? Did the earth itself change? Was Christ handed over the kingdom? Is Christ given the kingdom at the GWT? Why do you reject the many judgments over the years? I said I am not going to state at what point in time Daniel is seeing the GWT and books opened. Certainly not going to say Daniel was talking about Adam and Eve. My point was judgment, the GWT, and books opened is an ongoing phenomenon. Satan is constantly showing up at this judgment process accusing the brethren night and day, whether as a dragon, an angel, a beast, a man, or the outfit of the day. Jesus is the advocate pointing out night and day, that Satan has nothing against the redeemed. I am saying the timing is not one single event in time, and the GWT event in Revelation 20 is not even in time at all. Time does not even exist at this point:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The books have been opened since Adam. Why would judgment not happen after the Cross? You place Revelation 20:4 at that point. Are you only consistent when you want to be, to make a point, or all the time even if it goes against your own ideology? My point was about the books being opened. You and the poster think judgment has to occur only on the fact "books are opened". That is how the comparison was being made, not on judgment. Now you change the point to there was always judgment? Is that your point now, and not one single judgment at the end? Do you think Adam and Eve were judged in these verses:

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Were their lives drastically changed? Did they recieve the judgment of death? Did the earth itself change? Was Christ handed over the kingdom? Is Christ given the kingdom at the GWT? Why do you reject the many judgments over the years? I said I am not going to state at what point in time Daniel is seeing the GWT and books opened. Certainly not going to say Daniel was talking about Adam and Eve. My point was judgment, the GWT, and books opened is an ongoing phenomenon. Satan is constantly showing up at this judgment process accusing the brethren night and day, whether as a dragon, an angel, a beast, a man, or the outfit of the day. Jesus is the advocate pointing out night and day, that Satan has nothing against the redeemed. I am saying the timing is not one single event in time, and the GWT event in Revelation 20 is not even in time at all. Time does not even exist at this point:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

I don't know what in the world you're saying here, but it's quite obvious that the books aren't opened until after the thousand years and Satan's little season are over first. So, you can say they're already opened all you want, but that contradicts Revelation 20.