Paul taught that revelation 20:4 is a present reality

[Timtofly]

What are you trying to say here, that you think Christ will have a literal sword coming out of His mouth that He uses to kill people when He returns?

I am saying John is describing different events. You cannot force every time a judgment is pronounced against either living or those in the grave to be the exact same event.

If Revelation 14 happens, then Revelation 19 will not. If Revelation 19 happens, then Revelation 14 will not happen and Revelation 20:4 will happen.

Revelation 20:9 is not the same event as Revelation 6:15-17. Revelation 6:15-17 is not the same as Revelation 11:15.

Revelation 11:15 is when the 7th Trumpet starts. Revelation 14 is one week later when the 7th Trumpet stops. Daniel 9:7 is the 7th Trumpet, a week of days. Daniel 9:27 is if Satan gets 42 months. Revelation 14 is if Satan does not get 42 months. The 7th Trumpet has not sounded yet. No one can say Satan will get 42 months, until it actually happens. 42 months is not Satan being loosed out of the pit. 42 months happens before Satan is even placed in the pit. If Revelation 14 happens, the next chapter is 20. There will be no 15, 16, 17, 18, nor 19. There will be no FP or Armageddon. There will be no horse with a rider with a sword in their mouth. There will be a sickle and all humanity dead with not interruption to the week at all. Daniel 9:27 will never be fulfilled. At the end of the 7th Trumpet, Satan will be bound in the pit. Christ will reign on earth, the camp of saints which is symbolism for Christ's army on earth. An army has a leader. Christ is given rule over all nations, per Psalms 2, Daniel 9:24, Matthew 25:31, Revelation 11:15, and Revelation 20:6.

Then Revelation 20:7:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

And only then can fire come down from heaven and consume Satan's army.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am saying John is describing different events. You cannot force every time a judgment is pronounced against either living or those in the grave to be the exact same event.

You think the entire book is chronological and don't recognize the parallel sections in it, which is laughable. As long as you continue to believe that what is written in the book all happens chronologically from beginning to end your interpretation of the book will continue to be completely off base.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know what in the world you're saying here, but it's quite obvious that the books aren't opened until after the thousand years and Satan's little season are over first. So, you can say they're already opened all you want, but that contradicts Revelation 20.

Revelation 20 does not rule out the books were always opened. How can they be written in, if they were always closed? Are you saying they were never opened and written to until after time is no more, then all of a sudden all the works of mankind were instantly written down? How does that make any sense?

Heaven and earth no longer exist at this point. Are you saying there were not even any books prior to that point to even be opened? That makes about as much sense as nothing written down until that very moment. You could say there were not even any books at all, until after Satan's little season or that would contradict Revelation 20.

Why is it hard to state there have always been opened books to record man's works starting with Adam?

 

[Timtofly]

You think the entire book is chronological and don't recognize the parallel sections in it, which is laughable. As long as you continue to believe that what is written in the book all happens chronologically from beginning to end your interpretation of the book will continue to be completely off base.

Please point out where John states "this is a parallel event". Why are you using private human opinions to interpret God's Word?

How is my post a comprehensive chronological accounting in some dogmatic chronological order? Why do you keep using a lame excuse instead of actually addressing the points?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please point out where John states "this is a parallel event".

LOL!!! Why does He need to point it out in order for that to be the case? Does the book of Revelation come across to you as a book where everything is spelled out to us?

Please point out where John states "everything I'm writing about in this book will occur in chronological order". Good luck with that.

Why are you using private human opinions to interpret God's Word?

LOL! Where does John indicate that the whole thing is chronological? He doesn't. So, I guess your opinion is a private human opinion, too. LOL.

How is my post a comprehensive chronological accounting in some dogmatic chronological order? Why do you keep using a lame excuse instead of actually addressing the points?

What points have you made that make any sense and are worth addressing? I must have missed them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20 does not rule out the books were always opened. How can they be written in, if they were always closed? Are you saying they were never opened and written to until after time is no more, then all of a sudden all the works of mankind were instantly written down? How does that make any sense?

Heaven and earth no longer exist at this point. Are you saying there were not even any books prior to that point to even be opened? That makes about as much sense as nothing written down until that very moment. You could say there were not even any books at all, until after Satan's little season or that would contradict Revelation 20.

Why is it hard to state there have always been opened books to record man's works starting with Adam?

The judgment written about in Revelation 20:11-15 clearly happens after the thousand years and Satan's little season. Do you agree or not? If not, then there's nothing left to discuss because your view is just too far off base to even have a reasonable discussion about. But, if you agree that it occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season are completed first then what is the reason that it says the books were opened if they were already opened before that?

 

[ewq1938]

It's not a real, literal sword. It's a symbolic sword. Didn't you acknowledge that yourself? Explain how a non-literal, non-physical sword can kill people. It can't.

Then you reject what Revelation 19 describes, a symbolic sword killing people. You say it can't but God says it can. Guess who I am going to listen to?

 

[Truth7t7]

Then you reject what Revelation 19 describes, a symbolic sword killing people. You say it can't but God says it can. Guess who I am going to listen to?

"Sword" represents the written words of God

Ephesians 6:17KJV
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4:12KJV
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[ewq1938]

Where in verse 17 does it say, "written"?

"Sword" represents the written words of God

Ephesians 6:17KJV
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4:12KJV
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Timtofly]

The judgment written about in Revelation 20:11-15 clearly happens after the thousand years and Satan's little season. Do you agree or not? If not, then there's nothing left to discuss because your view is just too far off base to even have a reasonable discussion about. But, if you agree that it occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season are completed first then what is the reason that it says the books were opened if they were already opened before that?

The books are opened to write everything down in throughout time. The judgement itself, is not even in time. It is after the old creation is gone. But only for the dead. This judgement is not for the living, because the living are not stuck between the two realities. If you like parallels so much, Revelation 20:11-15 is a parallel all by itself that does not even exist in time or creation. It happens for the dead, while the living are enjoying the NHNE.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The books are opened to write everything down in throughout time. The judgement itself, is not even in time. It is after the old creation is gone. But only for the dead. This judgement is not for the living, because the living are not stuck between the two realities. If you like parallels so much, Revelation 20:11-15 is a parallel all by itself that does not even exist in time or creation. It happens for the dead, while the living are enjoying the NHNE.

So, you like to often rant against the idea of parallels being in the book of Revelation but here you are saying that Revelation 20:11-15 is a parallel. Seems rather hypocritical.

 

[Timtofly]

So, you like to often rant against the idea of parallels being in the book of Revelation but here you are saying that Revelation 20:11-15 is a parallel. Seems rather hypocritical.

No, I "rant" against false opinionated parallels that change the context to form false theology.

If you admit those standing at the GWT are existing outside of time while a parallel existence in creation is also happening is that really a parallel to you? If not, how is that hypocritical? I only called it parallel for lack of a better term. If you had another term, I would certainly stop using parallel, instead of being dogmatic and obstinate. Your parallels don't even consider the context of what was written. They are contrived and manipulated only to make a point. Using the word recapitulation is probably more honest, but still just a human opinionated interpretation.

 

[ewq1938]

So, you like to often rant against the idea of parallels being in the book of Revelation but here you are saying that Revelation 20:11-15 is a parallel. Seems rather hypocritical.

Revelation 20 is not a parallel. They do exist but not in that chapter.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 20 is not a parallel. They do exist but not in that chapter.

He quoted the verses about the GWT, which clearly states after heaven and earth no longer existed.

Now you can try to place the GWT into the current reality or after the NHNE all you like. I pointed out it was outside of reality altogether, thus parallel to reality.

He thought it ironic that I accepted such parallelism, if it is even parallel. Some people think eternity is just a very long time. Eternity has no time at all. Time is part of creation itself, not some separate entity.

Or some just think the NHNE is just the second dispensation and nothing really changes.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20 is not a parallel. They do exist but not in that chapter.

And, of course, I already know you believe that, so I'm not sure why you thought you needed to tell me this. I was talking to someone who doesn't believe there are any parallels in the book, as you do. Except for the one parallel he sees that suits his unique perspective of the book.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He quoted the verses about the GWT, which clearly states after heaven and earth no longer existed.

Now you can try to place the GWT into the current reality or after the NHNE all you like. I pointed out it was outside of reality altogether, thus parallel to reality.

He thought it ironic that I accepted such parallelism, if it is even parallel. Some people think eternity is just a very long time. Eternity has no time at all. Time is part of creation itself, not some separate entity.

Or some just think the NHNE is just the second dispensation and nothing really changes.

As you almost always do, you missed the point. I don't deny that the GWT occurs outside of our current reality. My point is that it occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season take place first. A vast majority, whether Amil or Premil, agree with me on that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I "rant" against false opinionated parallels that change the context to form false theology.

That's your opinion. But, are you not changing the context of Revelation 20:11-15 by saying it does not occur after the thousand years and Satan's little season are completed first even though it clearly does? Yes, I think so. You change the context to fit your doctrine.

If you admit those standing at the GWT are existing outside of time while a parallel existence in creation is also happening is that really a parallel to you? If not, how is that hypocritical?

For something to happen outside of time in the realm of eternity, time has to end first. So, the thousand years and Satan's little season have to end first before the GWTJ takes place. That's my point. But, are you able to understand my point? Who knows. It shouldn't be hard to understand, but with the convoluted way you look at things, I can't be sure if you will understand my point or not.

 

[Timtofly]

As you almost always do, you missed the point. I don't deny that the GWT occurs outside of our current reality. My point is that it occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season take place first. A vast majority, whether Amil or Premil, agree with me on that.

My point was that since the GWT is outside of reality the NHNE reality starts immediately. It does not wait for the GWT judgment. The new creation will not wait for this judgment that is outside of reality. Those on earth will not even be affected. After Satan is cast into the LOF, the next reality changes around them. They will not even see the GWT event.

Satan's little season was the test. Those who followed Satan were weeded out by them marching as a group to the camp of the saints. Their judgment was the fire that consumed them. All those still alive just simply watched the NE materialize around them. Since they did not follow Satan they did not need to stand in Judgment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My point was that since the GWT is outside of reality the NHNE reality starts immediately. It does not wait for the GWT judgment. The new creation will not wait for this judgment that is outside of reality. Those on earth will not even be affected. After Satan is cast into the LOF, the next reality changes around them. They will not even see the GWT event.

Satan's little season was the test. Those who followed Satan were weeded out by them marching as a group to the camp of the saints. Their judgment was the fire that consumed them. All those still alive just simply watched the NE materialize around them. Since they did not follow Satan they did not need to stand in Judgment.

What you're saying doesn't even make a tiny bit of sense to me. So, it's pointless to even continue this discussion. Let's move on.