Paul taught that revelation 20:4 is a present reality

[Spiritual Israelite]

It proves everything. To say he uses fire there is pure eisegesis.

So, tell me how He will do it then. Don't just tell me how you think He won't do it without also telling me how you think He will do it.

lol, Premillennialism knows there is a judgement and a resurrection at the second coming. We also know there is a second resurrection and judgment after the thousand years so you are apparently not taking that into account.

What is the difference between this:

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And this:

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

And, can you show me where in the following passage that Jesus indicated that people would be resurrected and judged on two completely separate occasions separate by a long period of time?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I'm not seeing where Jesus said two times are coming when all of the dead will be raised. Instead, He said a singular time (one day, one event) is coming when all of the dead would be raised.

 

[ewq1938]

And what is your evidence to back that up? You should know better than to just make claims without backing them up with scripture.

We are talking about Revelation 19 which supports my position since a symbolic sword is used to kill not fire. YOU are the one with no scripture back up.

In 2nd Peter 3:10-13 it talks about the fulfillment of the promise of His second coming and it talks about the heavens and earth being burned up in accordance with that promise. So, with that in mind, how can you say that He doesn't use fire in any sense against His enemies?

There's no enemies there. It's also not the second coming but the New Heaven and new Earth seen in Revelation 21 which is AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ).

And what do you make of the following?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

IN IN IN. Jesus comes in a flash of lightning. He doesn't shoot it out of his mouth!

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

G5395
f??´?
px
flox
From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G4442
p???
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.


In flaming fire is regarding Christ not the unsaved. Flaming means a flash and fire is specifically lightning according to the Strongs. So Christ comes In a flash of lightning to arrive and take vengeance (the sword of his mouth Rev 19) on the unsaved and that shouldn't be surprising because we were told that before:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



This denotes the speed of his return like a flash of lightning. It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved. To think that is to misread the verses.


Just read Rev 19 where the battle is described and you will see ZERO fire or lightning used to kill anyone.

2Th 1:7-8

And to you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels In A FLASH OF LIGHTNING
taking vengeance (with a sword according to Revelation 19) on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[ewq1938]

So, tell me how He will do it then. Don't just tell me how you think He won't do it without also telling me how you think He will do it.

You need to read Revelation 19 before asking these silly questions and STOP inserting things that DON'T appear in the text.

What is the difference between this:

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And this:

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Neither of those take place on the day of the second coming. Nice try but I saw that miles away. You misinterpret when 25:41 happens.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are talking about Revelation 19 which supports my position since a symbolic sword is used to kill not fire. YOU are the one with no scripture back up.

You understand that a SYMBOLIC sword is not literal, right? So, how does the destruction being described symbolically give any indication of how they destruction will occur literally? How do you think He will destroy His enemies literally? He's not going to literally destroy them with a symbolic sword, so how do you think He will do it?

There's no enemies there. It's also not the second coming but the New Heaven and new Earth seen in Revelation 21 which is AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ).

No enemies there? LOL. You need to learn to read scripture in context. The enemies are mentioned a bit earlier in 2nd Peter 3. They would include the scoffers who mock the idea of Jesus coming again.

IN IN IN. Jesus comes in a flash of lightning. He doesn't shoot it out of his mouth!

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

G5395
f??´?
px
flox
From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G4442
p???
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.

In flaming fire is regarding Christ not the unsaved. Flaming means a flash and fire is specifically lightning according to the Strongs. So Christ comes In a flash of lightning to arrive and take vengeance (the sword of his mouth Rev 19) on the unsaved and that shouldn't be surprising because we were told that before:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Are you purposely being deceptive here or was it by accident? Strong's does not say "specifically lightning". Instead, it says this:



It says "specially, lightning", not "specifically lightning". Come on. Look at blueletterbible.org to see how the word is used in scripture. It's always translated as "fire" (sometimes figurative fire and sometimes literal).

Here are just a few examples:

Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire G4442 to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire G4442 and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luke 22:55 And when they had kindled a fire G4442 in the midst of the hall, and were set down together, Peter sat down among them.

Also, the word translated as "lightning" in Matthew 24:27 is not from the Greek "pyr", but rather from the Greek "astrapē" (Strong's G796). So, referencing Matthew 24:27 does nothing to support your claim regarding 2 Thess 1:7-8.

This denotes the speed of his return like a flash of lightning. It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved. To think that is to misread the verses.

That is clearly not the case. You didn't take as much time as you should have to research this.

Just read Rev 19 where the battle is described and you will see ZERO fire or lightning used to kill anyone.

It doesn't say one way or another how they are killed literally. It's only described figuratively in Revelation 19. So, we can't conclude anything from Revelation 19 in terms of how He will kill His enemies literally. Why can't you understand this? We have to get that information elsewhere from literal text like 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You need to read Revelation 19 before asking these silly questions and STOP inserting things that DON'T appear in the text.

I'm not doing that. The fact is that Revelation 19 doesn't tell us how it will be done literally, it only describes it figuratively. So, we have to determine how it will happen literally from other texts. How many times do I have to tell you this before you understand it?

Neither of those take place on the day of the second coming. Nice try but I saw that miles away. You misinterpret when 25:41 happens.

LOL! You are missing the obvious here.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The timing of Matthew 25:41 clearly relates directly to "when the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him", which means this will occur at His second coming. Why, besides doctrinal bias, would you deny this?

 

[Enoch111]

No, that can't be right. It very specifically says that the seventh trumpet signals that it's the time of the dead being judged. Revelation 20:11-15 describes the dead being judged and that occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season.

There is a sequence of events before the unsaved dead a judged. That sequence stretches from Rev 15 to Rev 20. And Rev 11 simply makes an announcement regarding the future. It is only after the Millennium is established that the kingdoms of the world are destroyed to make way for the Kingdom of God. And the Great White Throne judgment occurs only after the Millennium. So if you are unable to connect the dots until the Great White throne judgment, then you will continue to stumble along.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not doing that. The fact is that Revelation 19 doesn't tell us how it will be done literally, it only describes it figuratively. So, we have to determine how it will happen literally from other texts. How many times do I have to tell you this before you understand it?

You don't understand it so you aren't able to identify if someone else can or cannot. A symbolic sword is used. There will be bloody flesh being fed on. That isn't the results of fire. It's blunt trauma but Amillennialism always seeks to change the meaning of a passage so instead of what it presents, Amillennialism uses eisegesis to insert this nonsense about fire being used to kill at Armageddon. That's not how Christ kills people according to the text, which Premillennialism doesn't seek to change.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


In the verses below Paul spoke in current and past tense stating that we even though alive have been already seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now


Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

The expression “heavenly places” here does not refer to their promised heavenly inheritance. They don't get their heavenly reward of immortality and inherit incorruption until they're resurrected at the second presence of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:2-6 talking about their exalted spiritual position resulting from their being “sealed with the promised holy spirit.” Ephesians 1:13,14

 

[Truth7t7]

There is a sequence of events before the unsaved dead a judged. That sequence stretches from Rev 15 to Rev 20. And Rev 11 simply makes an announcement regarding the future. It is only after the Millennium is established that the kingdoms of the world are destroyed to make way for the Kingdom of God. And the Great White Throne judgment occurs only after the Millennium. So if you are unable to connect the dots until the Great White throne judgment, then you will continue to stumble along.

Scripture clearly teaches after the two witnesses are raised to heaven the two woes come quickly resulting in the 7th Trump (The End)

Verse 18 below shows the final judgement taking place at the 7th Trump

Revelation 11:15-18KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

You don't understand it so you aren't able to identify if someone else can or cannot. A symbolic sword is used. There will be bloody flesh being fed on. That isn't the results of fire. It's blunt trauma but Amillennialism always seeks to change the meaning of a passage so instead of what it presents, Amillennialism uses eisegesis to insert this nonsense about fire being used to kill at Armageddon. That's not how Christ kills people according to the text, which Premillennialism doesn't seek to change.

The result of the Lord's fire in judgement

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is a sequence of events before the unsaved dead a judged. That sequence stretches from Rev 15 to Rev 20. And Rev 11 simply makes an announcement regarding the future. It is only after the Millennium is established that the kingdoms of the world are destroyed to make way for the Kingdom of God. And the Great White Throne judgment occurs only after the Millennium. So if you are unable to connect the dots until the Great White throne judgment, then you will continue to stumble along.

Because of your doctrinal bias, you're not accepting what Revelation 11:15-18 tells us will happen at the last trumpet. It very specifically says the dead will be judged at that point. And we know from Revelation 20 that the dead are judged after the thousand years and Satan's little season.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't understand it so you aren't able to identify if someone else can or cannot. A symbolic sword is used. There will be bloody flesh being fed on.

A symbolic sword does not exist in a literal, physical sense. Only a literal, physical sword does. Scripture says that the sword of the Spirit is the word of God (Ephesians 6:17). Is that describing a physical sword that can be used to kill people? Obviously not. And neither is the one described as coming out of Christ's mouth. It's a symbolic sword representing the word of God. He will destroy those who have rejected His Word. The literal way He will destroy them is by fire.

That isn't the results of fire. It's blunt trauma but Amillennialism always seeks to change the meaning of a passage so instead of what it presents, Amillennialism uses eisegesis to insert this nonsense about fire being used to kill at Armageddon. That's not how Christ kills people according to the text, which Premillennialism doesn't seek to change.

It's not a literal sword that He will use. You said yourself it's symbolic. So, why do you continue to acknowledge that the sword is symbolic while at the same time acting as if it's a literal, physical sword?

 

[ewq1938]

A symbolic sword does not exist in a literal, physical sense. Only a literal, physical sword does. Scripture says that the sword of the Spirit is the word of God (Ephesians 6:17). Is that describing a physical sword that can be used to kill people? Obviously not. And neither is the one described as coming out of Christ's mouth.

So now you deny the sword from his mouth can kill anyone. It's truly amazing the nonsense that comes out of the mouths of Amillennialism!


The symbolic sword that comes out of his mouth physically injures the people to death. They aren't drowned or burned or any other type of death like you are trying to change it to so you can force something from your doctrine that doesn't match the text. That should be a huge red flag for anyone reading. Leave the text alone. Do not practice eisegesis.

 

[ewq1938]

Because of your doctrinal bias, you're not accepting what Revelation 11:15-18 tells us will happen at the last trumpet. It very specifically says the dead will be judged at that point.

Yes, the saved dead. Revelation 20 tells us the rest of the dead aren't resurrected until a thousand years later, which is when they will be judged. It also calls them the dead even though they had been resurrected which means they are spiritually dead. There are no spiritual living in the second judgment because they cannot be called dead.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, the saved dead. Revelation 20 tells us the rest of the dead aren't resurrected until a thousand years later, which is when they will be judged. It also calls them the dead even though they had been resurrected which means they are spiritually dead. There are no spiritual living in the second judgment because they cannot be called dead.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

You will clearly twist any scripture you need to in order to make it fit your doctrine. Revelation 11:18 differentiates between the unsaved dead who are judged (Greek word means condemned) and the saved who are rewarded.

Revelation 11:The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing that the dead being judged/condemned are contrasted with God's servants being rewarded.

So, the dead who are said to be judged at the seventh trumpet are not saved as you falsely try to claim, they are unsaved and they are the same dead who are portrayed as being judged (condemned) in Revelation 20:11-15. The saved dead who are resurrected at that time will inherit the new heavens and new earth which is written about immediately after that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So now you deny the sword from his mouth can kill anyone. It's truly amazing the nonsense that comes out of the mouths of Amillennialism!

Tell me exactly how a SYMBOLIC sword can LITERALLY kill people. How can you not see how ludicrous that is? That's like saying that Jesus could literally light the seven candlesticks (symbolically representing seven churches) He was standing by on fire, as written about in Revelation 1:12-13.

The symbolic sword that comes out of his mouth physically injures the people to death.

How exactly does it do that? Please explain that to me. You seem to not want to explain exactly how that is possible. Which isn't surprising since it's impossible for a SYMBOLIC sword to LITERALLY kill people in the same way a LITERAL, PHYSICAL sword can.

They aren't drowned or burned or any other type of death like you are trying to change it to so you can force something from your doctrine that doesn't match the text. That should be a huge red flag for anyone reading. Leave the text alone. Do not practice eisegesis.

When are you planning to explain to me exactly how a non-literal, non-physical, SYMBOLIC sword can literally, physically kill people? How do you expect me to take you seriously without you explaining to me how that is possible?

 

[ewq1938]

Tell me exactly how a SYMBOLIC sword can LITERALLY kill people. How can you not see how ludicrous that is?

No, your silly reactions are ludicrous. A symbolic sword does not mean it cannot affect flesh and blood. It can and will! At least I don't try to argue that a sword is not a sword.

 

[ewq1938]

You will clearly twist any scripture you need to in order to make it fit your doctrine. Revelation 11:18 differentiates between the unsaved dead who are judged (Greek word means condemned) and the saved who are rewarded.

Time to correct you once again. The word there does not only mean to condemn.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

It can means a positive judgment or a negative judgment. The righteous are judged to eternal life, a reward! That happens at the 7th trump. The unrighteous dead are not judged at that time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, your silly reactions are ludicrous. A symbolic sword does not mean it cannot affect flesh and blood. It can and will! At least I don't try to argue that a sword is not a sword.

LOL. Nothing is more ludicrous than trying to claim that a SYMBOLIC sword can be used to literally, physically kill people. Again, this is like thinking that Jesus could literally set the seven symbolic candlesticks He was standing by on fire (Rev 1:12-13). Ludicrous.

So, I ask you once again, how exactly can a SYMBOLIC sword be used to literally, physically kill people? How many times do I have to ask this question before you actually answer it? Your apparent refusal to answer only further reveals the folly of your view of the symbolic sword that only symbolically, but not literally, comes out of Christ's mouth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Time to correct you once again. The word there does not only mean to condemn.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

It can means a positive judgment or a negative judgment. The righteous are judged to eternal life, a reward! That happens at the 7th trump. The unrighteous dead are not judged at that time.

Except that you corrected nothing. It says the dead will be judged at the last trumpet and the dead are shown as being judged after the thousand years and Satan's little season. You are trying any way you can to get around that, but it can't be done. And you noticeably are ignoring the fact that the dead who are judged are contrasted with the servants who are rewarded.

Most of the time, the Greek word krinō means condemned when used in scripture. Just look it up for yourself and see. Here are some examples where the the Greek word krinō is used (everywhere where I bolded the English word):

Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 12:47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Acts 13:27 The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath.