The genre of the speech. And the harmony with the rest of the Bible.
John 17:3-7 KJV
3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7) Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
What about the other statements Jesus made?
Is eternal life knowing God? Did Jesus glorify the Father on the earth? Did Jesus finish His work? Did Jesus manifest the Father's Name? Yes, to all of these.
Much love!
I guess this is your way of asking me why I believe John 17:5 has an important figurative expression used by others of that time and before. We must use and understand scripture IF WE were in their time and culture else we get it all wrong.
And later this expression as many others were misused/misapplied to support the pagan pre-existent doctrine of Yahshua as part of the mother Trinity doctrine.
And of course as you said, yes, to all those trailing questions at the end of your post eventhough they are not directly part of the question and inquiry I posed.
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In
verse 5, Jesus spoke to his Father about his last work yet to be completed, on the cross. He wants his Father to give him glory from his death on the cross by raising him up to immortality and eternal life, and bring others also to this eternal life, and therefore be with his Father, both together in glory, promised and planned for him before the world was made. The creation of Jesus’ spirit and body and his works was part of the plan of God from the beginning; to bring glory to himself and his Son, together, in heaven. For Christ to be the instrument whereby all true believers shall also gain eternal life and immortality.
There are many who view verse 5 from a quite different perspective. The Trinitarians especially share a novel view. These and others rationalize from their own imaginations and not from scripture, that Christ was saying to his Father to give him back a literal glory of being immortal again, or divinity he once possessed with his Father before the world began. It really ‘hangs out there’ as a ‘sore thumb’ with no scriptural thought or plan from God and with complete disregard for its surrounding
context.
It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence of Christ into this verse rather than a figurative existence of him,
only in the mind of God,
the Father of all.
Here are the reasons why their literal view cannot be true - it is figurative.
1. These same people of a verse 5b literal expression belief, also believe that Jesus was actually in heaven before he became a human being, from a glorified state, even as God Almighty himself. And some also believe, he became into a humble human state as in some type of transformation or incarnation. As a god-man dual natured creature! They use other scripture for their support although they choose to mischaracterize these aswell. For example, they use Philippians 2:7 to say that Jesus or even his Father
came down from heaven and incarnated himself into a humble human being. This scripture is only referring to Jesus has having his Father’s spirit and mind indwelt in him. Jesus thus sacrificed and yielded his own human spirit and will, and physical body, over to his Father, nothing more. Nothing is said or meant to mean Jesus or his Father
coming down for heaven and intentionally laying aside his so-called previous immortality or divine nature. Jesus was an example to all of his followers of a human servant for his God and Father.
The Father says he gave Yahshua immortality after his death on the cross and not or never before that time, since his birth (see John 5:26 Jesus never had eternal life before he was born. It was granted (as part of the plan) by the Father in his human life).
The Father had no actual created Son, except in his mind, before his spirit was created and born in Bethlehem. God never said he had a Son in scripture until that time. Yes he did point to his Son in the OT is a few areas under other labels and expressions. The Father gave his Son life in himself or immortality after his resurrection; meaning Jesus was called the Son of God only since his birth as a human being because he never existed before in any type of reality or previous life.
2. Now if Jesus was actually saying, give me my immortality and even my own divine nature back, then why in verse 5 did Jesus not say, “before when I was” or “
came down from heaven,” instead of “before the world was created” as it is in verse 5? These two expressions or figurative idioms would be more accurate and current although it would still not be true since Jesus was not speaking of a previous life of his own. He was referring to the Father’s
plan of a previous ancient time, he planned for his Son and even for his followers and believers of today. This plan did not just include his Son, it included a modern-day true believer aswell.
3. Later in
verse 22 we see that Jesus is desiring his Father to give the same glory, give immortality, even to all true believers as himself in the future. We know this to be true. If Jesus pre-existed in immortality and even with a divine nature apart from his Father, then did all true believers have the same immortality and even divine nature in the past? Or, shall they in the future, share in the same glory as Christ?! As already pointed out, scripture says that Jesus did acquire immortality for the first time, and all believers shall be immortal in the future as Christ. All shall share in the divinity of the God the Father (2 Peter 1:4). None have or own a divine nature except the Father. There is only one divine being and it is God Almighty, the Father of all that believe in his existence and presence within their lives, including Christ, our Lord.
4. In
verse 24 Jesus prays to his Father as if this glory of immortality is given to him for the first time after his death on the cross. His Father loved him from ancient times before Jesus actually went to the cross and received this glory of immortality for the first time. It is clear though that the Father gave Jesus immortality and thus Jesus cannot be God the Father himself, as that would disregard scripture completely.
(Joh 17:24) Father, I desire that they also whom You have given me, be with me
where I am; that they may
behold my glory, which You have given me. For
You loved me from
before the foundation of the world.
3. If we share the glory of immortality with Christ, they why did Paul also write in similar language as John here and say
we were given this glory
before the foundations of the world. Sounds like a match in expression and purpose, a twin to what is said in verse 5 here; that the immortality or glory of Christ was
before the foundations of the world.
(2Ti 1:9) Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was
given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal;
It means that Jesus had to be glorified to immortality first, for the first time, in order to give us his spirit and also become immortal, in the future. There is no other way to read this verse and John 17:5b. They have the same thought.
(Joh 17:22) And the glory
which You have given me,
I have given to them, that they may be one, even as we are one.
John 17:5b is figurative expression marks. Christ knew of the Father's plan for him and he knew he was about to gain glory at the Cross and afterwards for the FIRST time, amen. As a human man though he felt deep emotional and mental anguish, he wept and cried in fear for his life and even asked his Father he really did not want to die. He still persisted though in executing his Father's plan out of faith and love for his Father and his fellow mankind.