For those who think Christ is not God.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is Christ God?

  • God

    Votes: 31 77.5%
  • Lesser than God

    Votes: 7 17.5%
  • A mere Son/Man of God.

    Votes: 2 5.0%

  • Total voters
    40

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
And then I'm sure you can explain your answer as to why YOU think it is rubbish, or maybe you do not need to think as all the nearly other 2.65+billion as you say won't or cannot either. And then how is your statement meaningful to me and not said as a dig or a sly remark ? Well you can now entertain me if you wish and explain to me why this teaching IS NOT rubbish. Can you do this is the real question? I'm all ears and eyes Ron. I have my doubts though because I believe you really do not care about the subject that much as I do.

Your "fruit" if any, is slipping and brother you don't intimidate me one bit.


Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

J.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I suspected and planned for this verse to pop out of my post to @quietthinker QT, and here it is...The words you have bolded there beyond the word 'glory,' are they literal or figurative as a local idiom expression? Can you explain it marks?

Thanks in advance.
Is this a way to ask whether I believe what it says? Yes, I do.

Much love!
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
8,853
9,590
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your "fruit" if any, is slipping and brother you don't intimidate me one bit.


Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

J.
I wonder if you could just refrain from answering or jabbing in my post to Ron, Johann....I did want to hear from him first, Did you have anything worthwhile to contribute or did you forget to add it in? thanks
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
8,853
9,590
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Is this a way to ask whether I believe what it says? Yes, I do.

Much love!
marks, stop being evasive once more. Please answer my question as you keep wanting to duck out of it...you surely must know if this expression, as the second part of this verse is figurative or literal.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
marks, stop being evasive once more. Please answer my question as you keep wanting to duck out of it...you surely must know if this expression, as the second part of this verse is figurative or literal.
Oh, give me a break! Jesus was speaking to His Father of real things, whether or not you believe it.

Stop trying to dance around this.

Oh how I wish people could be bold enough to just say what they think! Provided it's not ungodly, that is.

Anyway, it sure sounds to me like you are prepared to drain the verse of it's meaning by declaring Jesus didn't really mean what He said, and was just using some "flowery speech" because it sounded good. And because you don't believe He could have actually meant what He said. Does that about sum it up?

Much love!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Brakelite

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
8,853
9,590
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh, give me a break! Jesus was speaking to His Father of real things, whether or not you believe it.

Stop trying to dance around this.

Oh how I wish people could be bold enough to just say what they think! Provided it's not ungodly, that is.

Anyway, it sure sounds to me like you are prepared to drain the verse of it's meaning by declaring Jesus didn't really mean what He said, and was just using some "flowery speech" because it sounded good. Does that about sum it up?

Much love!
Ok enough with the emotional outburst marks. I have your answer and thus meaning, that it's a literal expression. Thank you for your answer.

I was going to ask a follow-on question then, as to why you believe it is literal. Although if it takes this much effort just to get an implicit yes or no, then I won't bother asking for it.

You can ask me though if you wish, why it is not a literal expression.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 17:5 KJV
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Did Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was? Or no?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
as to why you believe it is literal.
The genre of the speech. And the harmony with the rest of the Bible.

John 17:3-7 KJV
3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7) Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

What about the other statements Jesus made?

Is eternal life knowing God? Did Jesus glorify the Father on the earth? Did Jesus finish His work? Did Jesus manifest the Father's Name? Yes, to all of these.

Much love!
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
8,853
9,590
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The genre of the speech. And the harmony with the rest of the Bible.

John 17:3-7 KJV
3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7) Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

What about the other statements Jesus made?

Is eternal life knowing God? Did Jesus glorify the Father on the earth? Did Jesus finish His work? Did Jesus manifest the Father's Name? Yes, to all of these.

Much love!
I guess this is your way of asking me why I believe John 17:5 has an important figurative expression used by others of that time and before. We must use and understand scripture IF WE were in their time and culture else we get it all wrong.

And later this expression as many others were misused/misapplied to support the pagan pre-existent doctrine of Yahshua as part of the mother Trinity doctrine.

And of course as you said, yes, to all those trailing questions at the end of your post eventhough they are not directly part of the question and inquiry I posed.

-------------------------------------

In verse 5, Jesus spoke to his Father about his last work yet to be completed, on the cross. He wants his Father to give him glory from his death on the cross by raising him up to immortality and eternal life, and bring others also to this eternal life, and therefore be with his Father, both together in glory, promised and planned for him before the world was made. The creation of Jesus’ spirit and body and his works was part of the plan of God from the beginning; to bring glory to himself and his Son, together, in heaven. For Christ to be the instrument whereby all true believers shall also gain eternal life and immortality.

There are many who view verse 5 from a quite different perspective. The Trinitarians especially share a novel view. These and others rationalize from their own imaginations and not from scripture, that Christ was saying to his Father to give him back a literal glory of being immortal again, or divinity he once possessed with his Father before the world began. It really ‘hangs out there’ as a ‘sore thumb’ with no scriptural thought or plan from God and with complete disregard for its surrounding context.

It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence of Christ into this verse rather than a figurative existence of him, only in the mind of God, the Father of all.

Here are the reasons why their literal view cannot be true - it is figurative.

1. These same people of a verse 5b literal expression belief, also believe that Jesus was actually in heaven before he became a human being, from a glorified state, even as God Almighty himself. And some also believe, he became into a humble human state as in some type of transformation or incarnation. As a god-man dual natured creature! They use other scripture for their support although they choose to mischaracterize these aswell. For example, they use Philippians 2:7 to say that Jesus or even his Father came down from heaven and incarnated himself into a humble human being. This scripture is only referring to Jesus has having his Father’s spirit and mind indwelt in him. Jesus thus sacrificed and yielded his own human spirit and will, and physical body, over to his Father, nothing more. Nothing is said or meant to mean Jesus or his Father coming down for heaven and intentionally laying aside his so-called previous immortality or divine nature. Jesus was an example to all of his followers of a human servant for his God and Father.

The Father says he gave Yahshua immortality after his death on the cross and not or never before that time, since his birth (see John 5:26 Jesus never had eternal life before he was born. It was granted (as part of the plan) by the Father in his human life).

The Father had no actual created Son, except in his mind, before his spirit was created and born in Bethlehem. God never said he had a Son in scripture until that time. Yes he did point to his Son in the OT is a few areas under other labels and expressions. The Father gave his Son life in himself or immortality after his resurrection; meaning Jesus was called the Son of God only since his birth as a human being because he never existed before in any type of reality or previous life.

2. Now if Jesus was actually saying, give me my immortality and even my own divine nature back, then why in verse 5 did Jesus not say, “before when I was” or “came down from heaven,” instead of “before the world was created” as it is in verse 5? These two expressions or figurative idioms would be more accurate and current although it would still not be true since Jesus was not speaking of a previous life of his own. He was referring to the Father’s plan of a previous ancient time, he planned for his Son and even for his followers and believers of today. This plan did not just include his Son, it included a modern-day true believer aswell.

3. Later in verse 22 we see that Jesus is desiring his Father to give the same glory, give immortality, even to all true believers as himself in the future. We know this to be true. If Jesus pre-existed in immortality and even with a divine nature apart from his Father, then did all true believers have the same immortality and even divine nature in the past? Or, shall they in the future, share in the same glory as Christ?! As already pointed out, scripture says that Jesus did acquire immortality for the first time, and all believers shall be immortal in the future as Christ. All shall share in the divinity of the God the Father (2 Peter 1:4). None have or own a divine nature except the Father. There is only one divine being and it is God Almighty, the Father of all that believe in his existence and presence within their lives, including Christ, our Lord.


4. In verse 24 Jesus prays to his Father as if this glory of immortality is given to him for the first time after his death on the cross. His Father loved him from ancient times before Jesus actually went to the cross and received this glory of immortality for the first time. It is clear though that the Father gave Jesus immortality and thus Jesus cannot be God the Father himself, as that would disregard scripture completely.

(Joh 17:24) Father, I desire that they also whom You have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which You have given me. For You loved me from before the foundation of the world.


3. If we share the glory of immortality with Christ, they why did Paul also write in similar language as John here and say we were given this glory before the foundations of the world. Sounds like a match in expression and purpose, a twin to what is said in verse 5 here; that the immortality or glory of Christ was before the foundations of the world.

(2Ti 1:9) Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal;

It means that Jesus had to be glorified to immortality first, for the first time, in order to give us his spirit and also become immortal, in the future. There is no other way to read this verse and John 17:5b. They have the same thought.

(Joh 17:22) And the glory which You have given me, I have given to them, that they may be one, even as we are one.



John 17:5b is figurative expression marks. Christ knew of the Father's plan for him and he knew he was about to gain glory at the Cross and afterwards for the FIRST time, amen. As a human man though he felt deep emotional and mental anguish, he wept and cried in fear for his life and even asked his Father he really did not want to die. He still persisted though in executing his Father's plan out of faith and love for his Father and his fellow mankind.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I guess this is your way of asking me why I believe John 17:5 has an important figurative expression used by others of that time and before. We must use and understand scripture IF WE were in their time and culture else we get it all wrong.
No, that's not correct.

I'm asking if you hold to a consistency within the Scriptures. Jesus said a number of things, that have a number of implications. I'm wondering how you treat His other statements made there.

That's actually my question. I'm sorry you wrote so much on something I wasn't asking you. But it's not my fault you re-worded my words into something different. Do you do that often? ;)

What about the other statements Jesus made?

This was the question I was asking.

Meanwhile, as time allows, I'll endeavor to go through your rather lengthy explanation of why I shouldn't accept His words as-is.
Much love!
 

Pearl

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 9, 2019
11,342
17,179
113
Lancashire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
R.56d913149905da8807f70f867066f861
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 17:5b is figurative expression marks.
APAK, Jesus was speaking from what He knows, and lives, and He knows good and well the glory He shared with His Father before the world was.

I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone, the question no one ever wants to answer!

Were Jesus actually wanting to express to His Father that He desired the Father once again glorify Him with the glory He had with His Father before the world was, how would He have to say it so that you'd believe it?

Much love!
 
Last edited:

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
he wept and cried in fear for his life and even asked his Father he really did not want to die.
No way!

When was Jesus EVER in fear for His life?

Hebrews 9:26 KJV
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV
5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Jesus came for the express purpose of offering His body in sacrifice on our behalf. He came to do the Father's will, and that will is that we be sanctified through the offering of Jesus' body in death.

However, He did not want to suffer the outrageous abuses that were to be heaped upon Him, the stark evidence of His love for us as He endured all of it.

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 17:5 KJV
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Did Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was? Or no?

Much love!
Yes he did, though I don’t believe it’s what you think, and to answer your question. No, Jesus wasn’t and isn’t God.

Now if you’ll kindly answer my question too you?