For those who think Christ is not God.

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Oh? Then what is He? Cannot God beget God?

If you believe God begot God, then I disagree with that. The word begot in regard to it's definition, is about bringing into existence. I agree God brought his Only Begotten Son into existence but to imply or say God was brought into existence that I will not agree with.

 

[Cristo Rei]

22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:21

7 Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
Mark 9:7

These are Gods words.
Could he possibly have meant otherwise?
Not at all.
God meant what He said.
Jesus is His son

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Brakelite said:
I am the Bread of Life: he that cometh to Me shall never hunger; and he that believeth in Me shall never thirst...I am the living Bread which cometh down from heaven; if any man eat of this Bread, he shall live forever...verily verily I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life;and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:35,51,53,54.[/QUOTE\]

I agree that Jesus Christ who is the Only Begotten Son of God is the bread of life that God sent to mankind. God's Only Begotten Son is the seed of promise that God prophesied would be sent at Genesis 3:15.

 

[face2face]

Not at all. Jesus came to do the Father's will.

... and didn't do his own will...correct

 

[face2face]

God condemned SIN IN (locative of sphere) His
Son? F2F?

So would you say Christ "became sin?"
in the sense that hamartia interpenetrated our Lord?
J.

Don't resist...he had your nature...its all over the Gospel and the Epistles.

 

[face2face]

Not at all. Jesus came to do the Father's will.
John 5:30
[30]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Wow, its not often a person argues against you then posts a verse which confirms what you've been saying all along.

Jesus had his own will but chose not to act on it...all goes into what God condemned!

Once again it proves Jesus cannot be God - He cannot be double minded!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Brakelite said:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". John 1:1[/QUOTE\]

The Word is the Only Begotten Son of God. It is the Only Begotten Son of God who became flesh/human. It was the Only Begotten Son of God that God sent to mankind. It was the Only Begotten Son of God who died for mankind. It was the Only Begotten Son of God that God resurrected three days after his death.

 

[face2face]

If you believe God begot God, then I disagree with that. The word begot in regard to it's definition, is about bringing into existence. I agree God brought his Only Begotten Son into existence but to imply or say God was brought into existence that I will not agree with.

And you Barney would be right...Jesus, you, the angels and everything in existence has a beginning except for Yahweh the God and Father of Jesus Christ - Ephesians 1:3

 

[Johann]

No, because Yahweh is without a beginning and an end...in fact, He is the beginning of all things and He is the end of all things. He determines the start and the finish.

Isaiah 44:6-7 “I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me. Who is like me? Let him make his claim!

Not even the Son can make that claim for we all know his beginning and his end.

This is where you err..


I AM

OT Background: Exodus 3:1-20, especially verses 13-18. (cf. Is. 41:4; 43:10-13)
NT fulfillment: John 6:20; 8:24, 28, 58; 18:5.
Synopsis: When God calls Himself the “I Am” in Exodus 3, it’s a pivotal moment in redemptive history. God reveals Himself to His people and comes to redeem them out of exile and lead them into a new life. God’s name discloses who He is and what He is like.

He is the I Am, the eternal, unchanging, self-existent one, infinite and glorious in every way, and above and beyond all created things. He is God.

When Jesus applies the title “I Am” to himself, he claims to be God (John 8:58). Not a helper to God or a great teacher, but the divine, eternal, pre-existent, infinite, perfect Being.

He is Israel’s God. He is greater than Moses because he is the God of Moses. He has life in himself and he can give life to us. The Jews knew taking on this title was making such a claim, which is why they immediately pick up stones to kill him (8:59).

The seven “I Am” statements in John might best be understood as falling under and echoing this initial, ultimate claim of Jesus.

He is God, and he is the God of Israel. All the OT and God’s redemptive acts were pointing to the coming of Jesus as the God-in-flesh, the true and better Israel, and the fulfillment of all the OT types and shadows.

1) I Am the Bread of Life
OT Background: Exodus 16; Deut. 8:3; Ps. 78:23-25
NT Fulfillment: John 6:22-59, especially verses 28-35.
Synopsis: Jesus enters a dialogue with Jews who had followed him because of his miracles—including the recent feeding of the 5,000—and yet they missed the reality behind them (he is the Divine Messiah). More important than solving their physical hunger for food through bread, Jesus offers himself as the Bread of Life to fulfill deeper longings and an eternal need.

There is more to the bread from God than the bread itself (Exodus 16). It’s not an earthly bread but a heavenly bread. It comes from above—from God—and comes down to us only by his grace and goodness. We need more than physical bread and we need it from someone other than ourselves. God will provide what we need most, and we should raise our eyes in faith.

Jesus takes this Old Testament background to bread for God’s people and he claims to be the bread of life. He explains the bread in the wilderness of Exodus was only a temporary provision, and that it points to a true and eternal bread from heaven God would later give. This bread is now before the Jews. The manna pictures Jesus, who is sent from God, comes down from heaven, must be taken by faith, who must be eaten/fully taken in, and who gives life.

2) I Am the Light of the World
OT Background: Exodus 13:17-22 (cf. Ex. 14:19-20); Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6 (both verses are in the four Servant Songs of Isaiah).
NT Fulfillment: John 8:12-30. See also John 1:4-5; 3:19-21; 9:5; 12:35-36).
Synopsis: Light is one of the most prominent themes in John’s Gospel. The world is lost and hopeless in darkness (John 1:4-14). The darkness cannot change its condition. Light must enter and invade. One cannot see or lead others in the darkness, so light is necessary to guide us and walk forward. John picks up light from a rich OT heritage and shows how Jesus is the light.

Based upon the fact that in John 8:12 Jesus ties the idea of being the light with his people following after him in the light, the most likely OT background in mind here is the light of God’s presence leading Israel in the wilderness via the pillar of fire (Exodus 13-14). Just as the Israelites were led by the pillar of fire (light) in the exodus and saved from the Egyptians as they crossed the Red Sea, so also Jesus says those who follow him (light) will have life.

A secondary OT background of the image of light is found in Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6. This light has to do with the salvation of the nations, and it is probably the primary reference in other passages like John 12:35-36, 46.

3) I Am the door or gate & 4) I Am the Good Shepherd
OT Background: Psalms 118:20 (gates = door); Ezekiel 34 and Jeremiah 23 (cf. Isaiah 40:11; Numbers 27:15-18; Micah 5:4)
NT Fulfillment: John 10:1-18
Synopsis: In John 10:1-18, Jesus makes two of the I Am sayings together. He claims he is the both the door through which the sheep enter as well as the Shepherd who knows the sheep and lays down his life for them. The metaphor of the door does not have the rich OT background as shepherding imagery does. But, Jesus is both the only way (door) a person enters into the people of God and the one who gives his life for the life of sheep, whom he knows and protects. He is the one who gathers the sheep and cares for them (shepherd) and he’s also the means by which they enter and are kept safe (door).

We should recall that Jesus is talking to the Pharisees in this conversation. The claims to be a good shepherd and Israel’s true shepherd was (in part) a rebuke against them. As the influential teachers in Israel, they should have led the people to truth. They should have put the people before themselves. They should serve God’s agenda rather than their own. But the Pharisees are like the bad shepherds in Ezekiel 34 and Jeremiah 23, leading them astray through false doctrine, prioritizing themselves over the sheep, and abusing them. Through this metaphor, Jesus at once lumps the Pharisees into the camp of the false prophets and bad shepherds of the OT while claiming to be the true and good shepherd those same OT passages promised (Ezek. 34:11-16, 22-24; Jer. 23:3-4).

Jesus comes not to pile burdens on but to relieve them and carry them himself. Jesus comes not to scatter the sheep but to gather them. Jesus comes not to devour the sheep but to defend them. Jesus comes to seek out, rescue, heal, and feed the sheep. He will do so because he loves the sheep and they belong to him. This is proven and accomplished by him giving up his life for his sheep.

5) I Am the resurrection, and the life
OT Background: Genesis 1-3; Isaiah 53:10
NT Fulfillment: John 11:17-27
Synopsis: Similar to other I Am statements, Jesus doesn’t just talk about what he can do or give, but who He is. He doesn’t just give bread (like Moses) but he is the bread. He doesn’t merely reflect light; he is the light. So also, in John 11, Jesus says I am the resurrection and the life.

The OT background isn’t as clear here as other statements, but most commentators believe Genesis 1-3 is partially in view. God is the Creator and Life-giver, granting life to creation and breathing life into Adam. However, the first Adam chose sin which brought about death for mankind and brokenness for the creation. Jesus comes as the second Adam, righteous and blameless in all his ways, comes to undo what Adam did and reverse the curse (Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15). Where Adam brought about death and decay, Jesus gives life and restoration. He provides not only resurrection and life to individuals who believe in him but for the entire world.

While many of the Jews wanted things from Jesus without having to receive and believe in Jesus, the offer of Jesus is himself. He doesn’t give bread and allow people to reject submission and belief to him, nor does he offer to give life apart from that life being found in him. These are free and gracious gifts, and they come only in and through Jesus. He is the resurrection and the life. He is the 2nd Adam, bringing resurrection and life where the first Adam offered us only death.

6) I Am the way, the truth, and the life
OT Background: Exodus 26:33; Leviticus 16
NT Fulfillment: John 14:6
Synopsis: It’s likely Jesus is here contrasting himself to the many ways in the OT that God prescribed for how the Jews could approach and relate to him. The systems of the sacrifices, temple, the curtain, tabernacle, and other means of worship were temporary “ways” to God. As the NT makes clear, these things in and of themselves did not cleanse or make people acceptable to God, but they were avenue by which God’s people could walk in faith and follow after Him (see Hebrews 8-9).

Jesus contrasts himself to anything before him they thought led them to the Father. He is the only one who provides the way to the Father, but he is also at the same time to the full revelation of the Father (truth). Jesus is telling them there’s nowhere else to look; nowhere you need to look or can look to find the true path to God. Jesus is that one way and that one path. He offers what Israel looked for and needed, and he replaced all prior things set up as temporary means by which man relates to God. All of these pointed to him and accomplished limited things (such as only making people ceremonially clean but not truly clean), and he is now here and able to accomplish salvation and redemption fully.


J.

 

[Brakelite]

Thanks for your response. Love that you used Hebrews 2:18 - its a key chapter in understanding the nature of Christ.

To answer your question, allow me to ask one; when Jesus said "not my will but thine be done" - can you acknowledge Jesus possessed a potential mind which was in opposition to his Father? The Scriptures call it a carnal mind Romans 8:6.

If you were to say "Jesus did not have a carnal mind, then I would ask, what is the alternative will Jesus is referring to in the Garden?" The fact he never acted on that will does not mean he didn't have the propensities to do so...I think that's the whole point - Jesus could sin if he so desired.

If like @Johann who believes it was impossible for Jesus to be tempted (or to sin) then we are back to believing in a puppet show - and of course God's righteousness is no longer declared in a flesh and blood man.

I will be back later with a reply to the remainder of your post.

F2F.

Hebrews 2:18 question - is the source of our temptations the same as Jesus - must be yes otherwise he cannot sucour us.

Jesus was born in the likeness of sinful flesh... As you say, carnal nature with all it's weaknesses. And yes, He could have sinned if He had so chosen. Agreed. But that word propensities, our propensities are evil. His propensities were to enoble, heal, uplift and save humanity. I believe there was not one evil propensity in His body. Yes, He could have sinned, otherwise the temptation in the wilderness is meaningless. That temptation was directed at His weaknesses... Appetite, and at His mission... Self sacrifice. But He had no propensities or habitual practices that Satan could target. The union of the human with the divine proved the possibility that man can live a sinless life, so long as he abides in the Vine. Partaking of the divine nature.

 

[face2face]

Jesus was born in the likeness of sinful flesh... As you say, carnal nature with all it's weaknesses. And yes, He could have sinned if He had so chosen. Agreed. But that word propensities, our propensities are evil. His propensities were to enoble, heal, uplift and save humanity. I believe there was not one evil propensity in His body. Yes, He could have sinned, otherwise the temptation in the wilderness is meaningless. That temptation was directed at His weaknesses... Appetite, and at His mission... Self sacrifice. But He had no propensities or habitual practices that Satan could target. The union of the human with the divine proved the possibility that man can live a sinless life, so long as he abides in the Vine. Partaking of the divine nature.

You raise a great subject! Jesus overcame every sin you have committed! It's what qualifies him as your High Priest.

Hebrews 4:15 - the question for this forum is...do you believe he was tempted "in all points" @Johann states empathically NO! The Apostle Paul states empathically YES!

Was Jesus tempted with the Lust of the Flesh, the Lust of the eyes and the Pride of life?

Yes he did... on every level imaginable.

Jesus didn't have divine nature until he like you will be changed i.e 1 Corinthians 15:53-55 = Jesus putting on immortality! Post resurrection!

 

[Brakelite]

If you believe God begot God, then I disagree with that. The word begot in regard to it's definition, is about bringing into existence. I agree God brought his Only Begotten Son into existence but to imply or say God was brought into existence that I will not agree with.

Why not? Would not the life that the Son received from His Father be the Father's life... Therefore eternal and naturally of the same essence as His Father's? Now, as I said before, I don't discuss the nature of God. So the above is as far as I go. Like begets like. That was God's way from the beginning. We beget like, because we were created in the image of God. I can't explain how the Son was begotten. I simply accept that He was, He was not created, adopted, but begotten in the express image of His unbegotten Father.

 

[face2face]

This is where you err..
I AM

Keep running J. from all those pertinent verses - we have already established in this thread that Jesus could claim equality with God based on his obedience...that's kinda the point!

 

[face2face]

I can't explain how the Son was begotten. I simply accept that He was, He was not created, adopted, but begotten in the express image of His unbegotten Father.

Dont forget Brakelite...Hebrews 2:10-13 (a life of probation!)

Note: of course the fact we are all one does not mean I am God or Jesus - One (unity) in purpose is what is meant.

 

[Brakelite]

Okay, so this is weird. There's a debate here between two sides basically. Those who don't believe Jesus is God/antitrinitarians, and those who do/trinitarians. And here I am getting likes from both sides,! Yet I'm not getting sore from straddling a fence. I don't have a foot in both camps. I firmly believe Jesus is deity... Divine... God in every sense of the word... And the Son of God in the highest sense of the word Son. Can we please do as I was suggesting earlier... Consider that we don't have to believe in the Trinity in order to accept Christ's divinity?

 

[Brakelite]

Dont forget Brakelite...Hebrews 2:10-13 (a life of probation!)

Note: of course the fact we are all one does not mean I am God or Jesus - One (unity) in purpose is what is meant.

And how much more does that reveal the love God has for mankind. That both Father and Son were willing to risk so much by the Son's voluntary humility in becoming fully man and putting Himself on probation in order to redeem us.

 

[Brakelite]

And you Barney would be right...Jesus, you, the angels and everything in existence has a beginning except for Yahweh the God and Father of Jesus Christ - Ephesians 1:3

I look at it this way. The Son a had a beginning in personality, but not in nature. I see it like this... The rock that was taken from the mountain in Daniel 2.. it is of the same eternal nature as the mountain, but once separated became an individual personality. But hey, I could be waayyy way wrong on that. I simply don't think any of us know how things came about.

 

[face2face]

And how much more does that reveal the love God has for mankind. That both Father and Son were willing to risk so much by the Son's voluntary humility in becoming fully man and putting Himself on probation in order to redeem us.

Amen

 

[Johann]

And you Barney would be right...Jesus, you, the angels and everything in existence has a beginning except for Yahweh the God and Father of Jesus Christ - Ephesians 1:3

You err..


Psa_87:1 A Psalm or Song for the sons of Korah. His foundation is in the holy mountains.

Psa_102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.


Isa_28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Isa_44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isa_48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Zec_12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Hebrews 4:15 - the question for this forum is...do you believe he was tempted "in all points" @Johann states empathically NO! The Apostle Paul states empathically YES!

This is a flat out lie F2F!

"sympathize with our weakness" A. T. Robertson gives another possible alternative translation, "suffer with our weakness" (cf. Heb_2:17-18). Jesus never had a sin nature and never yielded to sin, but He was exposed to true temptation because of mankind's sin.

"tempted" The term (peirazô) has the connotation of "to tempt with a view toward destruction" (cf. Heb_2:18; Heb_3:9; Heb_11:37). It is a perfect passive participle, which emphasizes a finished state by means of an outside agent, such as the tempter. This term is a title for Satan ("the one tempting") in Mat_4:3 (also notice Mar_1:13).

"in all things as we are yet without sin" Jesus is both fully God and fully human, and yet He understands us

However, He does not participate in fallen mankind's rebellion and independence from the Father (i.e., the innocent, sinless One, cf. Heb_2:17-18; Heb_7:26; Luk_23:41; Joh_8:46; Joh_14:30; 2Co_5:21; Php_2:7-8; 1Pe_1:19; 1Pe_2:22; 1Pe_3:18; 1Jn_3:5).


Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.
OJB


Strong's #5375: AHLB#1314-E (V)

1314) Xn% (Xn% NS) ac: Lift co: Standard ab: Refuge: The pictograph n is a picture of a seed representing continuance, the x is a picture of a thorn representing the idea of grabbing hold. Combined these mean "continue to grab hold". The tribal flag that is hung from a horizontal pole and lifted up high and seen from a distance.


1. to lift.
2. to bear.
3. (specially) to affirmingly lift up one's hand in solemn declaration (as an oath).

4 He bears our sins, and is pained for us: yet we accounted him to be in trouble, and in suffering, and in affliction. 5 But he was wounded on account of our sins, and was bruised because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; [and] by his bruises we were healed
LXX

4 Surely אָכֵ֤ן ’ā·ḵên He ה֣וּא hū took on נָשָׂ֔א nā·śā our infirmities חֳלָיֵ֙נוּ֙ ḥo·lā·yê·nū and carried סְבָלָ֑ם sə·ḇā·lām our sorrows; וּמַכְאֹבֵ֖ינוּ ū·maḵ·’ō·ḇê·nū yet we וַאֲנַ֣חְנוּ wa·’ă·naḥ·nū considered Him חֲשַׁבְנֻ֔הוּ ḥă·šaḇ·nu·hū stricken נָג֛וּעַ nā·ḡū·a‘ by God, אֱלֹהִ֖ים ’ĕ·lō·hîm struck down מֻכֵּ֥ה muk·kêh and afflicted. וּמְעֻנֶּֽה׃ ū·mə·‘un·neh 5 But He וְהוּא֙ wə·hū was pierced מְחֹלָ֣ל mə·ḥō·lāl for our transgressions, מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ mip·pə·šā·‘ê·nū He was crushed מְדֻכָּ֖א mə·ḏuk·kā for our iniquities; מֵעֲוֺנֹתֵ֑ינוּ mê·‘ă·wō·nō·ṯê·nū the punishment מוּסַ֤ר mū·sar that brought us peace שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ šə·lō·w·mê·nū was upon Him, עָלָ֔יו ‘ā·lāw and by His stripes וּבַחֲבֻרָת֖וֹ ū·ḇa·ḥă·ḇu·rā·ṯōw we are healed.

I really do suggest you look up important words in Hebrew and Greek (my advice to you, take it or leave it)

J.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Brakelite said:
There are statements such as the above, and below, that I like, although in order to fully endorse them I would need to know what precisely you mean by "like those", and "sin prone nature". You see, I agree that Christy had to be fully human in order to die, and in order to know what it is like experientially to resist sin that He might "succor them that are tempted". But to go so far as to claim He had sinful propensities... That is habit formed idiosyncracies that lead to sin... Is a stretch too far.[/QUOTE\]

YHWH God sent his Only Begotten Son in the likeness of the first human Adam. The True God YHWH created the first man Adam sinless. That means the first man Adam wasn't prone to sin or had a sinful nature. God created the first man Adam with the ability to make free moral choices. God sent his Only Begotten Son to mankind as a sinless 100% human who wasn't prone to sin just as the first Adam was. The Only Begotten Son of God when God sent him to mankind had the ability to make free moral choices just as the first Adam did. The last Adam Jesus Christ showed that because God created the first Adam sinless with the ability to make free moral choices the first Adam could have consistently chosen to be obedient to the True God YHWH just as the last Adam Jesus Christ did.