The Israel Problem In Postphonement Theology

[veteran]

What Texian is saying about the ten lost tribes is mostly a LIE.

1 Kings 12 and 2 Chron.10:17 reveal some remnants of the northern ten tribes were already... living in cities in Judea in the south when God first split Israel into two separate kingdoms.

The 2 Chronicles Scripture that Texian quotes about some of the northern tribes going down to Jerusalem later after the split is about Hezekiah's invite to the northern ten tribes to come to Jerusalem to observe the passover (2 Chron.30:1). And we see at 2 Chron.15:17 that the "high places" in northern Israel were still not taken away then, though some of the people of the northern tribes sought to turn back to worship at Jerusalem.

It did not mean the ten tribes of the northern kingdom was joined with the three tribed house of Judah at Jerusalem. Lot of Bible history of events of their continued separation remains after all that.

By the time one gets to 2 Kings 18, and Hezekiah's days in 2 Chronicles, it becomes silent about kings of Israel over the ten tribed northern kingdom. Why? Because they were gone, with the ten tribes removed to the lands of Assyria (2 Kings 17), while Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (with small remnants of ten tribes) still remained in Judea/Jerusalem, only to be taken captive to Babylon around 120 years later.

The Jewish historian Josephus who lived in 100 A.D., said this about that continued separation of two tribes apart from the larger group of ten tribes...

"And when these Jews had understood what piety the king had towards God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased; nay, many of them took their effects with them, and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers." (Josephus, Antiquites of the Jews; Book XI, Ch.5)

In case some did not notice, Josephus lived in 100 A.D., that means AFTER Christ's first coming and crucifixion.


Texian's idea that the ten tribes were joined back with Judah some 400-500 years prior to Christ's first coming is a flat out LIE. NOTHING is written in God's Word of the ten tribes returning to Jerusalem with Judah after the Babylon captivity. The above quote from Josephus is specifically about the days of Ezra the scribe (Esdras) and the return of a small remnant of the house of Judah back to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity. It was recorded in the Book of Ezra just what tribes returned, and even how many...


Ezra 1:2-5
2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
(KJV)

Do you see there ANY of the OTHER TRIBES OF ISRAEL BEING MENTIONED in that return after the 70 years Babylon captivity? NO!


Wait a minute, Ezra gave more detail of who all that was...

Ezra 2:1-70
1 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;
2 Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:
3 The children of Parosh, two thousand an hundred seventy and two.
4 The children of Shephatiah, three hundred seventy and two.
5 The children of Arah, seven hundred seventy and five.
6 The children of Pahath-moab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve.
7 The children of Elam, a thousand two hundred fifty and four.
8 The children of Zattu, nine hundred forty and five.
9 The children of Zaccai, seven hundred and threescore.
10 The children of Bani, six hundred forty and two.
11 The children of Bebai, six hundred twenty and three.
12 The children of Azgad, a thousand two hundred twenty and two.
13 The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.
14 The children of Bigvai, two thousand fifty and six.
15 The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four.
16 The children of Ater of Hezekiah, ninety and eight.
17 The children of Bezai, three hundred twenty and three.
18 The children of Jorah, an hundred and twelve.
19 The children of Hashum, two hundred twenty and three.
20 The children of Gibbar, ninety and five.
21 The children of Bethlehem, an hundred twenty and three.
22 The men of Netophah, fifty and six.
23 The men of Anathoth, an hundred twenty and eight.
24 The children of Azmaveth, forty and two.
25 The children of Kirjath-arim, Chephirah, and Beeroth, seven hundred and forty and three.
26 The children of Ramah and Geba, six hundred twenty and one.
27 The men of Michmas, an hundred twenty and two.
28 The men of Bethel and Ai, two hundred twenty and three.
29 The children of Nebo, fifty and two.
30 The children of Magbish, an hundred fifty and six.
31 The children of the other Elam, a thousand two hundred fifty and four.
32 The children of Harim, three hundred and twenty.
33 The children of Lod, Hadid, and Ono, seven hundred twenty and five.
34 The children of Jericho, three hundred forty and five.
35 The children of Senaah, three thousand and six hundred and thirty.
36 The priests: the children of Jedaiah, of the house of Jeshua, nine hundred seventy and three.
37 The children of Immer, a thousand fifty and two.
38 The children of Pashur, a thousand two hundred forty and seven.
39 The children of Harim, a thousand and seventeen.
40 The Levites: the children of Jeshua and Kadmiel, of the children of Hodaviah, seventy and four.
41 The singers: the children of Asaph, an hundred twenty and eight.
42 The children of the porters: the children of Shallum, the children of Ater, the children of Talmon, the children of Akkub, the children of Hatita, the children of Shobai, in all an hundred thirty and nine.
43 The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the children of Hasupha, the children of Tabbaoth,
44 The children of Keros, the children of Siaha, the children of Padon,
45 The children of Lebanah, the children of Hagabah, the children of Akkub,
46 The children of Hagab, the children of Shalmai, the children of Hanan,
47 The children of Giddel, the children of Gahar, the children of Reaiah,
48 The children of Rezin, the children of Nekoda, the children of Gazzam,
49 The children of Uzza, the children of Paseah, the children of Besai,
50 The children of Asnah, the children of Mehunim, the children of Nephusim,
51 The children of Bakbuk, the children of Hakupha, the children of Harhur,
52 The children of Bazluth, the children of Mehida, the children of Harsha,
53 The children of Barkos, the children of Sisera, the children of Thamah,
54 The children of Neziah, the children of Hatipha.
55 The children of Solomon's servants: the children of Sotai, the children of Sophereth, the children of Peruda,
56 The children of Jaalah, the children of Darkon, the children of Giddel,
57 The children of Shephatiah, the children of Hattil, the children of Pochereth of Zebaim, the children of Ami.
58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
59 And these were they which went up from Telmelah, Telharsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
60 The children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two.
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
64 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore,
65 Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women.
66 Their horses were seven hundred thirty and six; their mules, two hundred forty and five;
67 Their camels, four hundred thirty and five; their asses, six thousand seven hundred and twenty.
68 And some of the chief of the fathers, when they came to the house of the LORD which is at Jerusalem, offered freely for the house of God to set it up in his place:
69 They gave after their ability unto the treasure of the work threescore and one thousand drams of gold, and five thousand pound of silver, and one hundred priests' garments.
70 So the priests, and the Levites, and some of the people, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all Israel in their cities.
(KJV)

42,360 TOTAL

That's ALL that returned to Jerusalem. Now anyone who has read their Bible history well knows that even the house of Judah (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi) made up a WHOLE LOT MORE PEOPLE than that mere 42,360 that returned!!

Even when Solomon's son Rehoboam of Judah joined only 'men' for battle to try and bring the ten northern tribes of Israel back in union to him at Jerusalem, he had prepared 180,000 warriors per 1 Kings 12:21. So what happened??

Not only that, but ALL the peoples above in that list under bold green were FOREIGNERS!!!

That's right, those Nethinims, children of those priests, and servants of Solomon WERE ALL FOREIGNERS of non-Israelite heritage. They could not find their genealogy in Israel as written there!

So SUBTRACT all those peoples under the bold green part of the list, and it reveals the remant of TRUE ISRAELITES of the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi WAS VERY, VERY SMALL INDEED!!! Even a lot LESS than that 42,360 number!

WHAT HAPPENED???

The only tribes of Israel that even went... captive to Babylon were the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, as written there in Ezra 1 & 2. Those three tribes at Judea/Jerusalem were called the "house of Judah" in God's Word, after God split Israel into two separate kingdoms. The ten tribes were NOT EVEN around when Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came upon Jerusalem and took the "house of Judah" captive to Babylon. Then ten tribes had already been taken captive to the lands of Assyria and the Medes prior to Judah's captivity to Babylon. THAT is why the ten tribes did NOT even go captive to Babylon with Judah! They were not in the land anymore.

After the 70 years Babylon captivity, the largest portion of the "house of Judah" chose to REMAIN in Babylon. That's why only this very small remnant in Ezra 1 & 2 of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi returned to Jerusalem, with the LARGEST portion returning with them being foreigners that had crept in among Judah long ago.


In Ezra 8 we even find Ezra having to send back to get Levite priests, for none of them were even in the initial group that returned!

Ezra 8:15-20
15 And I gathered them together to the river that runneth to Ahava; and there abode we in tents three days: and I viewed the people, and the priests, and found there none of the sons of Levi.
16 Then sent I for Eliezer, for Ariel, for Shemaiah, and for Elnathan, and for Jarib, and for Elnathan, and for Nathan, and for Zechariah, and for Meshullam, chief men; also for Joiarib, and for Elnathan, men of understanding.
17 And I sent them with commandment unto Iddo the chief at the place Casiphia, and I told them what they should say unto Iddo, and to his brethren the Nethinims, at the place Casiphia, that they should bring unto us ministers for the house of our God.
18 And by the good hand of our God upon us they brought us a man of understanding, of the sons of Mahli, the son of Levi, the son of Israel; and Sherebiah, with his sons and his brethren, eighteen;
19 And Hashabiah, and with him Jeshaiah of the sons of Merari, his brethren and their sons, twenty;
20 Also of the Nethinims, whom David and the princes had appointed for the service of the Levites, two hundred and twenty Nethinims: all of them were expressed by name.
(KJV)

And with that event of Ezra sending the head Nethinim (given to temple service), to fetch sons of Levi, what does that Nethinim do? He brings MORE of his Nethinim foreigner brethren back with him to Jerusalem!!! (The Nethinims were foreign temple servants, bondservants that worked their way up to do Levitical priest duties in the temple. They began creeping in during David's days, when David made pacts with those of the nations like Hiram to trade for workers. Solomon's servants were foreigners left of the Canaanite nations which Israel was not able to destroy per God's command -1 Kings 9:20-22).


I tell you brethren; Satan's servants here on earth strongly want to HIDE THIS HISTORY! It takes real patience in God's Word to come to understand this, but it is WHY God put those genealogies in His Word, and spread these specifics throughout His Holy Writ. Skipping OT Book study is how Christian brethren miss these kinds of Bible histories, and pointers to how the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel" fell into idol corruptions with foreigners that crept in among them from the Canaanite peoples who sought to turn Israel away from worship of The One True LORD GOD. THOSE are a lot of the reason why the children of Israel had so much trouble with falling away from God in those times! This is why God would say the following in final about those false ones that crept in among His people after Christ's return...


Zech 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

 

[tim_from_pa]

Regarding the OP, I am of the belief that Israel, as anyone else of any nation, will have opportunity at salvation in the Millennium. The church right now are a few called out ones whose purpose is to rule and reign with Christ. I like to think of it as the Abrahamic identification with Christ whose inheritance was that of the Kingly lineage of Judah, and thus being Kings and priests along with him.

The purpose is then to teach the world God's Laws and ways to mankind.

For those who have a hard time accepting literal sacrifices in end of Ezekiel (when Christ's sacrifice was adequate), these sacrifices will be the purpose, i.e. to demonstrate what the whole thing was about under the Kingship of Christ. They never did nor never will save, but rather pointed to the one who was to come.

It's all in the feast days of Jehovah which were types and shadows of things to come, and God's plan for mankind's redemption. There was a Pentecostal harvest in the church. There's a greater harvest coming depicted in the Tabernacles feast, which pictures the Millennium.

 

[lawrance]

Regarding the OP, I am of the belief that Israel, as anyone else of any nation, will have opportunity at salvation in the Millennium. The church right now are a few called out ones whose purpose is to rule and reign with Christ. I like to think of it as the Abrahamic identification with Christ whose inheritance was that of the Kingly lineage of Judah, and thus being Kings and priests along with him.

The purpose is then to teach the world God's Laws and ways to mankind.

For those who have a hard time accepting literal sacrifices in end of Ezekiel (when Christ's sacrifice was adequate), these sacrifices will be the purpose, i.e. to demonstrate what the whole thing was about under the Kingship of Christ. They never did nor never will save, but rather pointed to the one who was to come.

It's all in the feast days of Jehovah which were types and shadows of things to come, and God's plan for mankind's redemption. There was a Pentecostal harvest in the church. There's a greater harvest coming depicted in the Tabernacles feast, which pictures the Millennium.

So Jesus Christ did not come to save his own people 2000 years ago ?
Everyone can have salvation today just by coming to Jesus Christ just like when he came 2000 years ago, end of story.

 

[veteran]

More important is which Israel were the Gentile believers grafted into in Romans 11: 19-20. Since dispensationalism says, in effect, that there is one Israel, not accepting Paul's two Israels of Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26, then a follower of that theology would say Gentiles are grafted into Israel, implying it is the good olive tree. This makes an important part of the Gospel ambiguous.

You're speaking the lie of 'replacement theology', the idea that believing Gentiles replace the Israelite remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:16-18
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
(KJV)

Paul was distinct with the Gentiles being graffed in 'among' the natural branches, not replacing the natural branches (Israel).

Rom 11:24
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(KJV)

God has not done away with those natural branches of Israel, because He even preserved a remnant of them that would believe, while others of them He blinded. Paul covers that very difference in the Rom.11 later verses which replacement theologists like to omit...

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)

The main REASON why God blinded the rest of the seed of Israel was so His Savlation could go to the Gentiles too. And when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, that blindness will be removed upon the rest of the seed of Israel, because like Paul says, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." That means God will no go back on what He promised to the seed of Israel. That's why many of the seed of Israel are still blinded today, because of God's Plan for His Salvation to go to the Gentiles too. That is NOT difficult to understand as written.

Important parts of the Gospel are who was Christ sent to (the lost sheep of the house of Israel), into which Israel were Gentiles grafted into (Romans 11: 20 says unbelievers, and we assume this means those of Israel who were unbelievers, were cut off, leaving the good olive tree the believing Israel), what is the identity of a Gentile believer in Christ (a Gentile believer becomes part of believing Israel, and is of Israel, according to Romans 11: 17), and how does a non-believing Israelite or Gentile become saved (by believing in Christ, believing his Gospel in all aspects and being born again.

The ONLY way anyone, whether of the seed of Israel, or of the Gentiles, will not be saved, is by individual choice to refuse to repent to Christ Jesus and refuse His Salvation. And that still... does NOT detract from God's Promises He said about the seed of Israel coming true. Paul revealing an elect remnant of the seed of Israel per the Romans 11:1-5 verses should have been enough to show you that, but it appears you still want to be hard-headed about that truth.

Why even Apostle Paul (Saul) is a PRIME FACIA EXAMPLE of GOD'S PROMISES TO THE SEED OF ISRAEL ACCORDING TO ELECTION.

Just what was Saul (Paul) doing on the road to Damascus PRIOR to Christ converting him? Saul was serving the unbelieving Jews of Jerusalem, and even had a letter of authority in his pocket to go hunt down Christians! That means Saul well knew HOW to recognize Christians and The Gospel they were preaching, and that he did not believe it! Then Christ Jesus Himself did a little interuption in Saul's life by Divine Intervention! Christ literally removed Saul's doubt and converted him. And then Saul (Paul) would become chosen to take The Gospel he warred against to the Gentiles, and with writing the majority of the Books of The New Testament! If our Lord Jesus did that with Saul, why not with others???

It's because Saul (Paul) was an ISRAELITE chosen elect. NOTHING Saul did to cause that, except being born an Israelite.

Dispensationalism contradicts these important parts of the Gospel by not accepting Paul's two Israels, by not fully understanding the meaning of being grafted into believing Israel, and important, by claiming God now has two peoples, Israel, as one group without any distinction being made between Paul's two Israels, and the "church," which is just a meeting, assembly or congregation of believers, so the theology makes the "church" into a separate body of Christ, different from the Israel Christ came to save, but which he, in that process, transformed into born again Israel..

I'm not a Dispensationalist as you keep suggesting on the sly, but not everything Dispensationalism believes is wrong. The believing Gentiles are graffed in among the natural branches of Israel per Apostle Paul. But when those like yourself take Paul's statement of no difference between Jews and Gentiles and run with it to suggest the 'seed' of Israel no longer has a place in Christ's Salvation, THAT IS a blind attempt to do away with God's Israel as a people! Apostle Paul did not do that when he spoke of Christ's Salvation being for Gentiles also. Nor did he do that in Romans 9 with the spiritual Israel concept, because right after that he gave an example of the seed of Israel according to election of seed about Isaac, Esau, and Jacob.

This is why those on men's doctrines of replacement theology disregard the prophecies in the Old Testament prophets about the twelve tribes of Israel's place in God's future Kingdom. It's from those same false prophets that say stupid things like, "We don't live in The Old Testament anymore", trying to say the Old Testament Books are all past history!

 

[texian]

texian, on 31 August 2011 - 03:11 PM, said:


"More important is which Israel were the Gentile believers grafted into in Romans 11: 19-20. Since dispensationalism says, in effect, that there is one Israel, not accepting Paul's two Israels of Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26, then a follower of that theology would say Gentiles are grafted into Israel, implying it is the good olive tree. This makes an important part of the Gospel ambiguous."

You're speaking the lie of 'replacement theology', the idea that believing Gentiles replace the Israelite remnant according to the election of grace.

You will say anything. Saying that Gentile believers are not grafted into Israel, without making the distinctions Paul made in Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26 is "replacement theology?" Paul did not repeat in Romans 11 what he said in Romans 2 and 9 because there was no need to.

"I'm not a Dispensationalist as you keep suggesting on the sly,"

OK, then why are you defending its doctrines?

What you are now saying contributes nothing to an understanding of Romans 11 and of Paul's doctrine about the two Israels. Lets stop the debate here. I won't respond to your additional comments as long as nothing is being made clear about the meanings of Romans 11 and other texts in Paul.

 

[veteran]

texian, on 31 August 2011 - 03:11 PM, said:


"More important is which Israel were the Gentile believers grafted into in Romans 11: 19-20. Since dispensationalism says, in effect, that there is one Israel, not accepting Paul's two Israels of Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26, then a follower of that theology would say Gentiles are grafted into Israel, implying it is the good olive tree. This makes an important part of the Gospel ambiguous."

You're speaking the lie of 'replacement theology', the idea that believing Gentiles replace the Israelite remnant according to the election of grace.

You will say anything. Saying that Gentile believers are not grafted into Israel, without making the distinctions Paul made in Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26 is "replacement theology?" Paul did not repeat in Romans 11 what he said in Romans 2 and 9 because there was no need to.

"I'm not a Dispensationalist as you keep suggesting on the sly,"

OK, then why are you defending its doctrines?

What you are now saying contributes nothing to an understanding of Romans 11 and of Paul's doctrine about the two Israels. Lets stop the debate here. I won't respond to your additional comments as long as nothing is being made clear about the meanings of Romans 11 and other texts in Paul.

You need to learn how to separate your quotes when quoting other people. Your quotes are all mixed up in the above.

There's different ideas of 'replacement theology' doctrine from men, supposing that believing Gentiles have replaced Israel. And thus they do not care, or want to even mention Israelite Christians as still being flesh Israelites. They even have a problem accepting what Paul taught in Ephesians 2 with the label "commonwealth of Israel" when he referred to Christ's Church.

So, what of that reference by Apostle Paul to Christ's Church as that "commonwealth of Israel" per Ephesians 2? Does that cause a conflict with Paul saying there is no difference between Jew or Gentile with Christ's Salvation? Does that cause YOU a conflict with what you believe about Christ's Church?

 

[tim_from_pa]

So Jesus Christ did not come to save his own people 2000 years ago ?
Everyone can have salvation today just by coming to Jesus Christ just like when he came 2000 years ago, end of story.

Never said anything of the like, and yes, of course people can be saved now. This is an example why there's theological misunderstandings (and debate forums) because someone's quote or message in the bible, such as Paul, is misunderstood. The problem is Paul and the other bible writers are no longer around to correct people and clarify things. At least I'm kicking and breathing yet to tell you that you totally misunderstood me. But if I were to write it down such as scripture, rest assured you and some others would quote "the scripture" as saying that Israel will be saved later and not now, and that people can't be saved now.

Let this be a lesson that no matter how assured we all are in what the bible teaches, we can get things wrong in the bible. The proof is simply what just happened here. I'm glad this happened.

 

[veteran]

There's different ideas of 'replacement theology' doctrine from men, supposing that believing Gentiles have replaced Israel. And thus they do not care, or want to even mention Israelite Christians as still being flesh Israelites. They even have a problem accepting what Paul taught in Ephesians 2 with the label "commonwealth of Israel" when he referred to Christ's Church.

So, what of that reference by Apostle Paul to Christ's Church as that "commonwealth of Israel" per Ephesians 2? Does that cause a conflict with Paul saying there is no difference between Jew or Gentile with Christ's Salvation? Does that cause YOU a conflict with what you believe about Christ's Church?

Still no answer from Texian to my questions above, which is starting to point to why I asked such questions about those who are on the other extreme from Dispensatiionalism.

Hyper-Dispensationalism tries to separate literal Israel from Christ's Church, and on the other extreme, Replacement Theology tries to dissolve the existence of literal Israel in regards to Christ's Church. Both views are extremist un-Biblical doctrines.

The Biblical view, the true view, is that God's promises to the seed of Israel continued with The New Covenant, and that only a 'portion' of the seed of Israel were actually cut off by disbelief because of God blinding them (Rom.11). And further, the remnant seed of Israel according to the election of grace per Rom.11:1-5 include God's promises through Jacob to Ephraim (ten tribes of Israel) that he would become "a multitude of nations", and that his brother Manasseh would also become "great" (Gen.48).

But both Replacement Theology and Dispensationalism look at Jews only as the seed of Israel, completely disregarding the prophecies God gave for the ten tribes of Israel involving Christ's Church and The New Covenant, with that being what believing Gentiles were 'graffed' into. This is why Apostle Paul would apply the "commonwealth of Israel" label to Christ's Church in Ephesians 2 when speaking to believing Gentiles. Per the Biblical view, God's Israel is still the people of Israel, and it is also the congregation of Christ's Church with believing Gentiles graffed in as spiritual Israel. The spiritual Israel concept is only involving the idea of Faith on Christ Jesus, which points to God's concept of Israel even the more, as the name Israel has always meant those who prevail with God, even when that name Israel was first given to Jacob and only about his seed.

Historically this matter can be proven.

God split the kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days, the main reason being because of Solomon allowing Satan's servants of the pagan nations to come in and turn the children of Israel to worship of idols and paganism. That's what happened when Solomon took many wives of the nations. Like God had warned israel before, those foreign peoples would turn Israel's heart away from Him with their pagan idolatry, which is why He commanded Israel to not take wives of those pagan nations.

So as a result God split Israel in two, giving Solomon's son one tribe at Jerusalem, and giving the majority of ten tribes to Joseph's son Jeroboam of Ephraim in the north as the new kingdom of Israel. The tribe of Ephraim became the head over the ten tribes in their own separate kingdom called "Israel" and "house of Israel", while Judah, Benjamin, and eventually Levi would remain with Solomon's son Rehoboam of the house of David at Jerusalem, as the kingdom of "Judah" or "house of Judah" per God's Word.

That was a very, very substantial thing our Heavenly Father did with moving even the name Israel to the ten tribed kingdom under Jeroboam of Ephraim, calling his kingdom the "house of Israel". It was about the original giving to Jacob of the name Israel as a synonym for Christ's Salvation that was to come to them, and to Gentiles they would be scattered amongst.

Because Jeroboam corrupted worship in the northern kingdom of ten tribes, God eventually brought the kings of Assyria upon them and removed them all to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. Only the kingdom of Judah at Jerusalem remained. The king of Assyria then brought foreign peoples from Babylon and established them in the lands where he had removed the ten tribes from, and those foreign peoples became known later as Samaritans, named for the northern area of Samaria where Ephraim as head had once ruled over the northern kingdom of ten tribes.

The ten tribes became lost while in their Assyrian captivity, while the kingdom of Judah at Jerusalem remained and kept their heritage as Israel, and became known as Jews (from the name Judah). It was prophecy, especially as given in the Book of Hosea.

But the ten tribes as the majority of the peoples of old Israel becoming lost to themsevles and to the world as Israel had a major purpose in God's Salvation Plan through His Son, a plan also outlined in the Book of Hosea. God said because of their falling away from Him to Baalism, He would scatter them out of the land to where they would not find their way back to the holy lands of promise, and they would no longer be His people. They were to become Lo Ammi (not My people).

But in time, God promised He would allure them into the wilderness and give them a door of hope (representing The Gospel) and eventually where it was said to them that they were Lo-Ammi (not My people), there it would be said to them, "Ye are the sons of the living God." (Hosea 1:10). In Romans 11, Paul quotes that passage from Hosea to believing Gentiles, pointing to the "commonwealth of Israel" concept once again. So how did this happen per history?

While the ten tribes were captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, they became known by other names the Assyrians used. They began to forget their heritage as Israel, losing the old feast days and Israelite customs like the Hosea prophecy said. Even though that happened, God was doing a marvelous work with them, but it would still be for a time later after they had migrated out of Assyria to new lands along with their Baal idols. The ten tribes were recognized as the Cimmerians and Scythian peoples by scholars like Leroy Waterman through translations from the Assyrian Tablets discovered in the late 1800's. The field of anthropology and secular historians like Herodotus and Strabo have much to say about the Cimmerian and Scythian peoples when they migrated westward into the lands of Asia Minor and Europe.

Those Cimmerians and Scythians (ten tribes of Israel) were the Celts, Gauls, Normans, Angles, Saxons, Nordic and Scandanavian, and Germanic tribes, basically the early peoples who establsihed the nations of Asia Minor and Europe. Apostle Paul's Epistle to the Galatians was specifically to them, known as Gauls. Paul lived among them, being from the country of Cilicia. Problem then was, they themselves and most of the world thought they were Gentiles, especially since they were still... practicing idol worship of Baalism which God had cast them out of His sight for. Only certain small remnants of those ten tribes of Israel kept knowledge of who they were, which is why the Scots in later 1200 A.D. remarked in their Declaration of Abroath about their heredity of Israel.

When it was time for Christ's first coming and crucifixion, with the small remnant of the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem refusing Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah (Christ), it was to those lands specifically of Asia Minor and Europe that Christ's Apostles and disciples took The Gospel to. Then the ten tribes masked as Gentiles began to put away their idols of Baal and miraculously turned to Christ Jesus on national scales, Britain becoming the first nation to do so nationally in the 1st century A.D. (history of the Culdee Church in Britain, even while Rome was still in paganism).

Over time, through western Christian history, some of those among them which God had preserved their heritage as ten tribed Israel began to reveal to others this very history I'm telling you now. That the Scots who wrote the Declaration of Abroath mentioned their historical link to Israel shows how God had preserved even a remnant of Israel among then ten tribes that did not turn away from Him, and knew their heritage as Israel, and thus knew history of their scattering and migations into Europe.

This is why Jewish historians like Josephus (100 A.D.) would write in his days that the ten tribes were still scattered "beyond Euphrates" (in Assyria) in his days, and were too great a people to be numbered. Thus the ten tribes never were some small band of people like a roving Indian tribe. They were a great number of people, enough to establish the western nations of Asia Minor and Europe. I'm talking about the peoples that established the nations in Britain, Italy, Spain, Greece, Germany, France, Scandanavia, the Baltic nations, Asia Minor, New Zealand, Australia, Americas, South Africa, i.e., the peoples to whom The Gospel of Jesus Christ went to right after Christ's crucifixion, and who became the caretakers of that Gospel to the rest of the nations of the world.

Thus, the seed of Israel has much to do with God's Promises of The New Covenant through His Son, and would actually become Christ's Church of today, with Gentiles in those lands who also believed becoming joined with them. Those peoples of the ten tribes of Israel never stopped being God's people of Israel to Him, even though God once gave them a bill of divorce and they lost themselves as to who they were (Jer.3:8).


Judah, or the Jews, have a different history than the ten tribes.

After God had removed the ten tribes of Israel out of the northern lands to Assyria, the "house of Judah" remained at Jerusalem/Judea. They made up only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, with some of the nations among them. After God had removed the ten tribes for doing idol worship, then those Jews began to fall to the same things Israel in the north were guilty of. About 120 years after God had removed the ten tribes out of the land, He then brought Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon upon the house of Judah at Jerusalem. The king of Babylon took the majority of them captive to Babylon, as God had foretold, for a 70 years captivity. That was the days of prophets like Jeremiah and Daniel, Book of Esther, etc.

After that 70 years captivity of Judah in Babylon, only a very small remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi returned to Jerusalem to build the 2nd temple and Jerusalem again (Ezra 2). It was then that the Jewish historian Josephus said those of the house of Judah began to use the name 'Jew' for themselves, and all the foreign peoples also that lived in the land of Judea in that time took that name Jew. The name Jew comes from the tribe of Judah only. The tribes of Benjamin and Levi are also called Jews because those tribes remained with Judah at Jerusalem when God split Israel into two kingdoms in Solomon's days. This is how Apostle Paul could claim to be a Jew, and also a Benjamite from the tribe of Benjamin.

The majority of the Jews in Babylon chose to stay in Babylon after the 70 years, and they are the majority of Jews that were later scattered through the nations, including to areas in Asia Minor and Europe where the ten tribes wound up. God had told them through Jeremiah that if Judah agreed to go captive to Babylon for 70 years, they would be well taken care of, and would build houses and plant vineyards there, and increase their numbers. That happened as written, so the majority of the house of Judah in Babylon chose to stay there after the 70 years; they had gotten comfortable there. Then later, like God told through Ezekiel, those Jews would then later be scattered further through the countries. With the later 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, a lot more of them would be taken captive and scattered through the nations like the ten tribes were. That's what the Jews call the Jewish Diaspora, starting with their captivity to Babylon. THAT scattering had NOTHING to do with the ten tribes who were scattered out of the northern holy land first.

Apostle Paul was a Jew, from the tribe of Benjamin, and his family was from Cilicia, a place in Asia Minor. Paul also was a Roman citizen, showing that he or his family had lived in the Roman empire, as there were groups of scattered Jews that lived in Rome in that time. Yet Apostle Paul was not of the ten tribes of Israel that were scattered to places like Cilicia first. By the time Paul was born, the majority of the ten tribes had lost their known heritage as part of Israel. A modern account of Jews returning to the holy lands in the past centuries would probably reveal most of them as Jews migrating from the very nations where the ten tribes were established, i.e., historic Christian nations. This is why there are many Jewish Messianic communities among the Christian west. That was from the majority of them being scattered from Babylon to the West.

Yet Judah or the Jews (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi) never lost their heritage as Israelites. Most of them kept the traditions of God's feast days set for Israel, and the sabbath days, and the Old Testament Scriptures and the law, etc. And God established many of Judah in the Christian nations in positions involving His law (who hasn't noticed that?).

Once all that history is realized for today, Christ's Church involving the seed of Israel has a whole... lot more involvement than what most Churches care to teach today. The Church's main responsibility is to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ, however, another responsibility is the teaching of Bible history, applying the proper roots of God's Salvation Plan per His Word. Yet many will no longer cover that history, either because they listen to men's traditions and are thus Biblically illiterate, or because of the modern Socialist doctrines of the day which is trying to steal Christ's Church away from God's people.

 

[lawrance]

Interesting Tex. I'm not sure I grasped everything you meant, so correct me if I understand you wrong... Here's the understanding I have of it.

The Israel of God is God's people, Jewish or Gentile, that are in Christ. Israel according to the flesh is the Jews, currently living in a place called Israel. They are actually only Jews though. (Judah, hence why the Bible says (and Romans called it) Judaea).

Being a Jew doesn't make you God's people. Just like being Christian by name doesn't either. Jesus called the Pharisees 'sons of the devil'. The same can be true of us today. God has his people, which are indeed Israel according to the Spirit.

Israel according to the flesh is simply the old testament version of Israel. Though the thing is, with ten lost tribes, there's only the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, united under the name of Judah.

The Israel of God is Jews and Genties (Ephraim, Ezekiel 37) that are united in Christ, the wall of partition being destroyed and the new creation in them makes them one.

Israel according to the flesh ? i would say their is no such thing, but they could be referred to be the tribe of Israel ?
Israel starts with Jacob becoming Israel for a reason ? and that is the only reason why anyone could be an true Israel.
So if it's not in what Jacobs dealing with how he got the name Israel ? it's just people talking rubbish. as this is the main focus point of what Israel is about as with out this understanding you will be deceived.
As Israel is not bounded by race but by the Spirit. and a true Christian is Israel by inheritance of that Spirit now fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
I think the Israel coming back to the home land is "Christian Israel" and it has not been fulfilled yet as when it does we will not take the land but it will be given and all sides of people will be happy it is so. and all will come to Christ willingly.
The 10 commandment still stand as they are the word of God ! but only that in Jesus is their full meaning is revealed.

 

[veteran]

Yep. It's really difficult to get around the Old Testament prophecies of God gathering the children of Israel back to the lands He promised their fathers when Christ returns. Ezekiel 44 is even revealing how the priests of Israel that went astray when Israel went astray will be doing menial temple service for the people during Christ's Millennium reign, and they won't be allowed near Him then. In Ezekiel 47-48 God specifically names all 13 tribes of Israel in their locations back in the land.

We Gentiles who have believed will take part with that in Christ's future Kingdom, but the idea of Gentile 'nations' is still mentioned being manifested in that future time (like in Zech.14). Furthermore, Christ's future Kingdom on earth centered where Jerusalem is, is going to cover the areas from Egypt all the way up into the lands of Assyria, and not just the small area around Jerusalem (Isa.19). There's to be a highway running from Egypt up into Assyria in that time for the saved, with Israel mentioned only as a third part in that layout, with Egypt and Assyria as the other two thirds (end of Isa.19).

God's River of the waters of Life will be established at Jerusalem coming out of His House, and flowing to feed other rivers upon the earth, healing them (Ezekiel 47). That's where the Tree of Life is also mentioned there in Ezek.47 on either side of that River.

Weren't we already given some of this manifestation on earth early in Genesis 2, with the River that flowed out of God's Eden to four other literal rivers upon the earth?

Our Heavenly Father has already told us all things in His Word, if only we would read and heed It.

Men's traditions in many Churches today are designed to get us away from Old Testament Book study, and to dwell mainly in the New Testament Books. But many events yet future to us are still... written in the Old Testament Books of God's prophets, still expecting fulfillment. We are now under The New Covenant in Christ Jesus, and many events recorded in 'detail' in the OT Books are specifically for fulfillment in our future. Nine whole Bible chapters on Christ's future Millennium reign in Ezekiel 40 through 48, and few seem to want to read them.

Israel is specifically God's inheritance (Isa.19), and not particularly ours. We should remember that when some say things that infers the dissolving of Israel as a people and nation.

 

[lawrance]

I believe that Israel is God's inheritance and not particularly anyone's. as the Spirit comes foremost and they are Israel.( they are God's nation and people.) I believe that it's not bounded by a race, because their is no one that is fully 100 % of the original race (tribe) left. god made it so.
So anyone boasting of being of the race is just foolishness to me.

 

[veteran]

I believe that Israel is God's inheritance and not particularly anyone's. as the Spirit comes foremost and they are Israel.( they are God's nation and people.) I believe that it's not bounded by a race, because their is no one that is fully 100 % of the original race (tribe) left. god made it so.
So anyone boasting of being of the race is just foolishness to me.

Good point.

 

[falconduler]

The Israel Problem In Postphonement Theology

Postphonement theology teaches that Christ will postphone the salvation of "all Israel" until the tribulation period. This theology is usually called dispensationalism. But you can also call it separation theology, because it separates the "church" from all of what it calls Israel.

I know of no dispensationalist authority who makes a distinction
between apostate physical Israel of the
Old Covenant and that Remnant of old Israel who were faithful to God.
That is, some may talk about those
of Old Covenant Israel who were faithful, but the dispensationalists
do not make the distinction between the
two Israels of the Old Covenant a fundamental starting doctrine of
their theology.

By Christ's time most of physical Israel followed the religion of the
Pharisees, or oral Talmudic Judaism. The majority of those in physical
Israel followed the religion of the Pharisees. This was the broad way
theology (Matthew 7: 13-15) of that time. Dispensationalism, or what can also
be called postponement theology, is the broad way theology of our time.

Hebrews Chapter Eleven lists
some of the faithful small Remnant of old Israel who lived by faith.
Those listed
in this chapter include Abel, Enouch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Isaac,
Jacob, Moses, Gideon, and even the prostitute Rahab. "These all died in faith,
not having received the promises, but having seen them afar
off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that
they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Hebrews 11: 13 There
were a few Hebrews at the time Christ was born who were faithful, such
as Simeon and Anna discussed in Luke Chapter 2.

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says of classical dispensationalism
that the: "basic primise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God
expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1966,
pp.44-45.

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two
distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan...These considerations
all arise from
a literal method of interpretation." (page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost,
Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965)....

In dispensationalism "Israel" is always one group, all those who claim
physical descent from Abraham.
At the Cross the promise to Abraham that his seed would be in a covenant with
God forever was changed from the physical seed, the literal DNA of
Abraham, to Abraham's
spiritual seed, to those who like Abraham, believed God. As Paul says
in Romans 9: 8 "They which
are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."

Followers of dispensationalism cling to their fundamental belief that
physical Israel, the children of the flesh, remain God's chosen
people. They cling to that belief in physical Israel as the chosen
people, which is called Jewish supremacy, because they think their
identity in Christ is based upon believing physical Israel is the
chosen people. This belief is in great part based on Romans 11: 17
that they as Gentiles of the "church" are grafted into the good olive
tree which, from dispensationalism, they think, is all physical
Israel. Yet Paul is not inconsistent in his doctrines. To be
consistent with Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26, Romans 2: 28-29,
Galatians 3: 28-29 and other New Testament texts, that Israel into
which Gentile Christians are grafted into is Jerusalem which is above,
is free and is the mother of us all, and in Romans 9: 8 the children
of the promise to Abraham as his spiritual seed, rather than his
physical seed who are not born again.

God began Israel in the physical. Entry into the Old Covenant was by
physical blood line,
by being the physical descendants of Abraham, having his DNA.
Circumcision of the male
Israelites was in their flesh, and the temple was a literal physical
building. But II Kings
21: 13 foretells the transformation of physical Israel into one that
is born from above in
Jesus Christ. Then Isaiah 29:16 refers back to the promise that God
would wipe Israel clean and
turn it upside down in II Kings 21, and Isaiah 29: 16 says God's
turning of things upside down
shall be esteemed as the potter's clay, pointing to Jeremiah 18: 1-6.
In the parable of the
potter of Jeremiah 18: 1-6 God is in the role of the potter making
pots on his potter's wheel.
God the potter made a pot which was marred. This is physical Israel.
He then used that same
lump of clay to make out of it another pot, which, in verse 4,"seemed
good to the potter to make it."

The story of physical Israel in the hands of God is seen in the
parable of the fig tree of Luke 13:
5-9. "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise
perish. He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree
planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and
found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold,
these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find
none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also,
till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

The fig tree is physical Israel. "A certain man" is God the Father.
"The dresser" is Jesus Christ. The fig tree
as physical Israel is bearing no spiritual fruit, and so the Father
says to the Son, "cut it down." But the dresser of the vineyard,
who in this parable is Christ, says he will try to save the fig tree.
he will dig about it and dung it. What Christ the dresser
did was to prune back the fig tree representing physical Israel. He
died on the Cross to transform Israel. But what
was transformed was a small Remnant out of the entire population that
was and still is physical Israel. John the Baptist
in Matthew 3: 10 also uses trees as a parable for physical Israel.
John the Baptist says "...every tree which bringeth not
forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire." Here is the
pruning down process which Christ carried out on
physical Israel because they, the vast majority, in broad way
theology, were not bringing forth spiritual fruit.

God through Christ cut back physical Israel to a small Remnant, and
Hebrews 10: 9 is very brief but clear and explicit in saying
"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." We know,
even from verse 16 of that same chapter, that the first
refers to the Old Covenant and the second to the New Covenant. The Old
Covenant was done away with, in order to create
the New Covenant. Yet numerous false prophets have been teaching a
return in some degree and in some way to the Old Covenant, either for
Christians or they honor physical Israel without making the
distinction that Paul made between the two Israels in Romans 9;6-8 and
Galatians 4: 24-26.

In attributing the status of God's chosen people to all physical
Israel, most of whom when Christ walked the earth were in Talmudic
Judaism, the religion of the Pharisees, and not believing I Peter 2: 9
that Christians are the chosen people following the Cross,
dispenationalists have, like Esau in Genesis 25, given up their
birthright.

Their birthright is in Israel, but they have the wrong Israel. Christ
came to save Israel, but that Israel which has an identity in Jesus
Christ, as their spiritual birthright, is Israel reborn in Christ
(John 3: 1-6). Only those born again in Christ are part of saved
Israel.

In having attached themselves to one construct called Israel, and not to
born again Israel, dispensationalists are in danger of being told
"I knew you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of
iniquity." Luke 13: 25-27 He doesn't mean he does not know them
where they live geographically, but he does not know them as his own
where they have positioned themselves in their beliefs, in their
doctrines. They are on the broad way of Matthew 7: 13-14, and not the
narrow way.

you mean postpone. don't you?????