What is impossible for God?

[RedFan]

Christ didn't have to be nailed to cross in order to accomplish the Atonement. The wages of sin is death... Not crucifixion.

Fair enough. Let's just consider Christ's death, by whatever means, as required or not required for forgiveness of our sins. Was it impossible for God to forgive those sins without Christ's death?

In thinking about this, it is interesting to me that Rom. 6:23 speaks of death as the “wages of sin” rather than the “penalty for sin.” I’m probably off base in analogizing to what I know best (the legal system), but crimes are criminal matters, while debts are civil matters. Payment of wages is a civil rather than a criminal matter, a debt to be paid to a creditor. A civil debt can be forgiven post-judgment at the whim of the creditor. If the offense to God were deemed criminal and there is imposed a sentence other than a monetary fine, punishment of the wrongdoer is required. No substitutes are allowed; mom or dad, brother or sister may NOT serve my sentence for me, much less go to the gallows for me. If the debt is deemed civil, however, the creditor can cancel it at will, and the matter is then at an end.

 

[quietthinker]

Fair enough. Let's just consider Christ's death, by whatever means, as required or not required for forgiveness of our sins. Was it impossible for God to forgive those sins without Christ's death?

In thinking about this, it is interesting to me that Rom. 6:23 speaks of death as the “wages of sin” rather than the “penalty for sin.” I’m probably off base in analogizing to what I know best (the legal system), but crimes are criminal matters, while debts are civil matters. Payment of wages is a civil rather than a criminal matter, a debt to be paid to a creditor. A civil debt can be forgiven post-judgment at the whim of the creditor. If the offense to God were deemed criminal and there is imposed a sentence other than a monetary fine, punishment of the wrongdoer is required. No substitutes are allowed; mom or dad, brother or sister may NOT serve my sentence for me, much less go to the gallows for me. If the debt is deemed civil, however, the creditor can cancel it at will, and the matter is then at an end.

Death is a consequence.....the consequence of alienation from God. It is not an imposed penalty.
Eg....a vehicle designed to run with oil in the engine eventually fails if oil is not used. It does not fail because the designers punish it. Failure is a consequence.

 

[BarneyFife]

What is impossible for God?
To force his will on the unwilling.

Balaam

 

[RedFan]

Death is a consequence.....the consequence of alienation from God. It is not an imposed penalty.
Eg....a vehicle designed to run with oil in the engine eventually fails if oil is not used. It does not fail because the designers punish it. Failure is a consequence.

Yet the NT mentions Christ's death as paying for our sins, sometimes as a ransom paid. Who is the "payee," and why couldn't he just have pardoned us without the "death penalty" payment? The OP is about what is or isn't impossible for God, and I'm trying to figure out whether pardoning us without the need for Christ's death was possible or impossible for the supposedly omnipotent, all-loving Supreme Being.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Impeccable means not able to sin. God is Impeccable hence impossible for God to commit a thought or act of sin.

There are two sides to this interesting question. It is important to remember that this is not a question of whether Jesus sinned. Both sides agree, as the Bible clearly says, that Jesus did not sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22). The question is whether Jesus could have sinned. Those who hold to “impeccability” believe that Jesus could not have sinned. Those who hold to “peccability” believe that Jesus could have sinned, but did not. Which view is correct? The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was impeccable—Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so united in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him” (Colossians 1:19). Colossians 2:9 adds, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are, in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet He remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature (Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15; James 1:13). Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do; therefore, sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature.

To be tempted is not, in and of itself, sinful. A person could tempt you with something you have no desire to do, such as committing murder or participating in sexual perversions. You probably have no desire whatsoever to take part in these actions, but you were still tempted because someone placed the possibility before you. There are at least two definitions for the word “tempted”:

1) To have a sinful proposition suggested to you by someone or something outside yourself or by your own sin nature.

2) To consider actually participating in a sinful act and the possible pleasures and consequences of such an act to the degree that the act is already taking place in your mind.

The first definition does not describe a sinful act/thought; the second does. When you dwell upon a sinful act and consider how you might be able to bring it to pass, you have crossed the line of sin. Jesus was tempted in the fashion of definition one except that He was never tempted by a sin nature because it did not exist within Him. Satan proposed certain sinful acts to Jesus, but He had no inner desire to participate in the sin. Therefore, He was tempted like we are but remained sinless.

Those who hold to peccability believe that, if Jesus could not have sinned, He could not have truly experienced temptation, and therefore could not truly empathize with our struggles and temptations against sin. We have to remember that one does not have to experience something in order to understand it. God knows everything about everything. While God has never had the desire to sin, and has most definitely never sinned, God knows and understands what sin is. God knows and understands what it is like to be tempted. Jesus can empathize with our temptations because He knows, not because He has “experienced” all the same things we have.

Jesus knows what it is like to be tempted, but He does not know what it is like to sin. This does not prevent Him from assisting us. We are tempted with sins that are common to man (1 Corinthians 10:13). These sins generally can be boiled down to three different types: “the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16 NKJV). Examine the temptation and sin of Eve, as well as the temptation of Jesus, and you will find that the temptations for each came from these three categories. Jesus was tempted in every way and in every area that we are, but remained perfectly holy. Although our corrupt natures will have the inner desire to participate in some sins, we have the ability, through Christ, to overcome sin because we are no longer slaves to sin but rather slaves of God (Romans 6, especially verses 2 and 16-22).got?

I certainly disagree with you on some of your post.
You use the word impeccable in the rare theological form as CAN NOT SIN.

The word says that GOD became flesh and dwelt among man. Jesus was truly man and truly God. IT seems as though you have separated this into two parts, which is a miss.

Heb2:16-18 .........v18 For that HE HIMSELF hath SUFFERED being tempted, he is able to succor THEM THAT ARE TEMPTED.
Heb.4: 13-16 .........looking @ 15..........
For we HAVE NOT an high priest which cannot be touched with the FEELINGS OF OUR INFIRMITIES; BUT WAS IN .....ALL POINTS TEMPTED LIKE AS WE ARE, YET WITHOUT SIN.


MK1: 13 states that he was there in the wilderness forty days, TEMPTED OF SATAN; and was with the wild beast; and the angels ministered unto him. Mt.4:1

There would have been NO need to be tempted if he was unable to sin. Furthermore he would not have a true understanding if he were not all flesh and all God. The God part did not prevent him in the flesh.
Look at the garden at how stressful and hard was his agony over taking the cup of God's wrath for mankind's penalty of sin. He grieved, he cried, he felt pain, he was flesh and bone.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

What was the difference between Jesus walking here as a man of flesh and the first Adam before he disobeyed God?

Adam was tempted and succumbed to it sinning.

Jesus was tempted but never yielded to the temptations. Could he have? I do really believe so. Adam was clean and Jesus was clean at their beginning of their respective times as men of flesh. Adam dirtied himself. Jesus overcame the desires to dirty himself. The last battle against the temptations in his flesh were, as I see it, won in the Garden of Gethsemane, here:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

After that he still needed to go to the cross and die, but his own flesh and the ways of his flesh had been completely defeated. No more temptations for Jesus! He had overcome the world of temptation in the son of man, Jesus.

First see the confirmation by Jesus here:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
Jesus did not overcome planet Earth nor did he overcome the worlds for each of us, but he was readying himself in order to open up the Way and to provide access to the power that each us could do what he did.

And then the clarification here:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,..." John 17:11

Jesus was still on planet Earth and still had to go to the cross to die, but he was no longer in the world of those temptations, which when followed lead people to sin. John describes them here:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." I John 2:16-17

For Jesus the "world" of temptations was gone. We, however, as per John 17:11 are, each one us, still in our own little world of temptations until and if we have by the power of the Holy Spirit in us overcome as Jesus did! Who at this moment is like with Jesus no longer in that "world"?

Is it impossible for the Holy Spirit in us to overcome that world before the dirt is thrown over our faces? Jesus did it before he died physically. What kind of a limit should we put on the power of God?

Absolutely brilliant post, well said and all in spiritual context !

 

[BarneyFife]

Why did Jesus die....because we killed him.....and what is even more astounding is that he allowed them to do it so that we can see the generosity and selflessness of God.

I think it might have been 2nd-degree murder, forensically speaking.

John 10
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.​

 

[BarneyFife]

Even so sister! Jesus did not lie!

However the question was directed @Christophany who said God could not sin. This being the case what happens to the first verse I quoted in Post #1? Mark 10:27.

I'm troubled by the logical absurdity of statements containing expressions that impose upon God the inability or impossibility of any kind of function. The fact that God's "nature," as we've coined it, is resolute in benevolent purpose to a degree we cannot even fathom does not necessitate any constraint or limit on His power to do as He pleases. If He was pleased to do something contrary to our reckoning of His "nature," He would simply do it. But He would not be pleased to do so, because He has said so, and He is not a man that He should repent.

 

[Brakelite]

Was it impossible for God to forgive those sins without Christ's death?

Yes, and His forgiveness was expressed in a myriad of ways throughout the OT. What the death of Christ accomplished was to satisfy the legal requirements and the natural ramifications of disobedience of the law. Forgiveness on it's own was insufficient to allow us entry to heaven. Which is why obedience to the law, even after, nay, especially after being forgiven, is so essential.

 

[quietthinker]

Yet the NT mentions Christ's death as paying for our sins, sometimes as a ransom paid. Who is the "payee," and why couldn't he just have pardoned us without the "death penalty" payment? The OP is about what is or isn't impossible for God, and I'm trying to figure out whether pardoning us without the need for Christ's death was possible or impossible for the supposedly omnipotent, all-loving Supreme Being.

Of course pardoning us without the death of Jesus is possible. It is not only possible but it is a fact.
A&E didn't go looking for God when they sinned; they bolted and hid; God went looking for them. Surely that tells a story?

When the paralytic was let down through the roof the first thing Jesus said was 'your sins are forgiven'. He didn't ask for forgiveness. No sacrifice was required, no confession, no repentance, no baptism......and as evidence that his sins where forgiven, he rose from his mat and walked out of there

Forgiveness understood elicits confession and repentance. Confession and repentance does not earn forgiveness.
The texts that speak of sacrifice embrace far more than just Jesus dying. His condescension from the harmonious heavenly abodes to come to this dark torn planet; his taking on of a human body....and that for eternity is a sacrifice which boggles my mind.

God does not require payment from anyone. It is however possible to see the incarnation as God paying us with a gift unbelievably gratuitous if we are going to talk in terms of payment.

 

[MatthewG]

I'm curious because if God could have forgiven sin without the crucifixion of His Son, but He chose not to, it changes the way I look at atonement.

What disabled God from forgiving the offender’s sin without having His Son nailed to the cross? Christ, we are told, paid the price for our sins―but the price owed to Whom? If it was owed to the Father, what restrained Him from simply canceling the debt?

Oh okay RedFan. Looking back at the Garden, even though Adam and Eve had sinned before being cast of the Garden there was a separation fixing to be made to Adam, Eve, and Satan (going to be crushed by the seed (Word of God - Jesus) who would come in the future through the line of David.

Before Jesus Christ had came down from being the Word of God born in flesh, and used the fleshly body to have perfect blood was chosen to be killed by the nation of Israel which he was seeking after the lost sheep of Israel.

From Adam - Christ - All people went to hell / Sheol - either in the Paradise Part or the Prison Part which were was the abode of undead souls that were separated from God until Jesus himself went to hell, and also seen those in Paradise, and (walked) down to the prison place, and proclaimed a message to those who died in Noahs day. Upon God resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, I believe this showed a defeating over the separation and because of what Jesus had done paying for sin with his perfect blood that had no sin in it, God through Christ reconciled the world back to himself.

That is how I understand why Jesus had come being the second Adam only this time not having committed any sin and because of him, through faith we have access to the Father in heaven.

So Jesus had paid for the sins of the entire world once one time on the cross for all people whom make the choice to come to him, are able to have a special relationship through him, and able to pray to the Father in Heaven, and also given the holy spirit - and this invitation of choice is open to all people as all of their sins have been taken care of on the cross by Jesus. Thus the choice to believe, follow, obey what Jesus said are all choice and we wrestle with our flesh and the spirit.

Does any of this information help at all, aside from showing my position of the way I see the atonement? - which is the reconciling of all people back to God through Christ, and those who were sheol/hades eventually came out of it according to Revelation. I personally do not believe people in up in hell anymore due to the victory of Christ over all things from Sin, Satan and his Demons, Hell/Sheol (which now today I believe people end up outside the heavenly Jerusalem in part of the heavenly realm expressed by John in Revelation), the grave, fulfilling the Law.

 

[RedFan]

So Jesus had paid for the sins of the entire world once one time on the cross for all people whom make the choice to come to him, are able to have a special relationship through him, and able to pray to the Father in Heaven, and also given the holy spirit - and this invitation of choice is open to all people as all of their sins have been taken care of on the cross by Jesus. Thus the choice to believe, follow, obey what Jesus said are all choice and we wrestle with our flesh and the spirit.

Does any of this information help at all, aside from showing my position of the way I see the atonement? - which is the reconciling of all people back to God through Christ, and those who were sheol/hades eventually came out of it according to Revelation.

MatthewG, I wish I could say this helps me answer my question. It's a great explanation of why Christ DID come down and die. But it doesn't tell me that Christ HAD TO come down and die in order for God to forgive our sins, that it was IMPOSSIBLE for God to forgive sin without that death, that He had no other way to accomplish it. I apologize if I was unclear, but I am focused on what I thought was embraced by the OP, discussing what is and isn't impossible for God.

I'll be as clear here as I can. Imagine the prayerful conversation in Matt. 26:42 actually going something like this:

Christ: "My Father, if this cup cannot pass me by unless I drink it, Your will be done."
Father: "It cannot pass you by. I have no other means for forgiving the sins of mankind. I'm utterly powerless to achieve that result in any other way than through your death."

In simplest terms, my question is this: would such an answer have been accurate? (I really do think I'm posing a "yes" or "no" question here.)

 

[MatthewG]

MatthewG, I wish I could say this helps me answer my question. It's a great explanation of why Christ DID come down and die. But it doesn't tell me that Christ HAD TO come down and die in order for God to forgive our sins, that it was IMPOSSIBLE for God to forgive sin without that death, that He had no other way to accomplish it. I apologize if I was unclear, but I am focused on what I thought was embraced by the OP, discussing what is and isn't impossible for God.

I'll be as clear here as I can. Imagine the prayerful conversation in Matt. 26:42 actually going something like this:

Christ: "My Father, if this cup cannot pass me by unless I drink it, Your will be done."
Father: "It cannot pass you by. I have no other means for forgiving the sins of mankind. I'm utterly powerless to achieve that result in any other way than through your death."

In simplest terms, my question is this: would such an answer have been accurate? (I really do think I'm posing a "yes" or "no" question here.)

As my first answer to the post. Not everything is possible for God, if it is not part of his nature, or part of his will, and his will is for everyone to come to knowledge of the truth about the Son, and that all to become saved, and none to perish.

The answer is No, God chose to have things done the way he did, and it is why even belief in the resurrection is important part of the Gospel for without resurrection there is no afterlife or spiritual resurrection here now in being a new creation, @RedFan.

God freely allows people to choose to have faith in him and what His son had done, or reject and live their life as they desire and want to without him in it.

 

[RedFan]

The answer is No, God chose to have things done the way he did...

Thank you.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

It's impossible for God to die, it's impossible for God to sin, it's impossible for God to deny himself, it's impossible for God to give those who are unrepentant and unfaithful eternal life.

 

[RedFan]

It's impossible for God to die, it's impossible for God to sin, it's impossible for God to deny himself, it's impossible for God to give those who are unrepentant and unfaithful eternal life.

Thanks for this list, Barney. Your last entry troubles me a bit. WHY is it impossible impossible for God to give those who are unrepentant and unfaithful eternal life? (It's easy to see why He WOULDN'T do it, but I'm struggling with the notion that He CAN'T do it.)

BTW, would you add "it's impossible for God to forgive sins other than through the death of His Son" to your list?

 

[Waiting on him]

Thanks for this list, Barney. Your last entry troubles me a bit. WHY is it impossible impossible for God to give those who are unrepentant and unfaithful eternal life? (It's easy to see why He WOULDN'T do it, but I'm struggling with the notion that He CAN'T do it.)

BTW, would you add "it's impossible for God to forgive sins other than through the death of His Son" to your list?

Hebrews 6:18 KJV
[18] That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

 

[bbyrd009]

Then anyone who doesn’t agree is heterodox. It’s as simple as that . There is no salvation in any other god except the biblical God who is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

yet Jesus clowned the religious of His day, and elevated the pagan and the atheist for their faith/works

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course pardoning us without the death of Jesus is possible. It is not only possible but it is a fact.
A&E didn't go looking for God when they sinned; they bolted and hid; God went looking for them. Surely that tells a story?

word

Forgiveness understood elicits confession and repentance. Confession and repentance does not earn forgiveness

hmm you think? interesting if true…seems like the second would be possible?

 

[amadeus]

I'm troubled by the logical absurdity of statements containing expressions that impose upon God the inability or impossibility of any kind of function. The fact that God's "nature," as we've coined it, is resolute in benevolent purpose to a degree we cannot even fathom does not necessitate any constraint or limit on His power to do as He pleases. If He was pleased to do something contrary to our reckoning of His "nature," He would simply do it. But He would not be pleased to do so, because He has said so, and He is not a man that He should repent.

God has spoken curses as well as blessings and He also has mercy available. King David did things which according to the letter of the law given to Moses seemingly demanded the curse of death... yet God had mercy on David. We, at least some of us, may understand why He had mercy on David or on others in our own experience, but to whom can we explain the understanding He has given us to others whose hearts are not open to it. Where from come the "eyes to see" and the "ears to hear" about which Jesus speaks?

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:15-16