Why should those who have never believed have any resurrection? Resurrection means bringing to life.
Unbelievers are dead and never come to life unless and until and IF they believe.
What is impossible for God?
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Unbelievers are dead and never come to life unless and until and IF they believe.
Say you have a person who has three children. One turns 18 and never sought after God but you loved that person for they were your child, who ended up killing themselves.
Where do they Go?
Hell forever? Blitzed and roasted like marshmallows in the Lake of fire?
What about Gods love? I believe Jesus and his finished works can be seen in revelation 22 for the answer of where one may go.
Where do they Go?
Hell forever? Blitzed and roasted like marshmallows in the Lake of fire?
What about Gods love? I believe Jesus and his finished works can be seen in revelation 22 for the answer of where one may go.
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God sent His son to provide people with the same opportunity that the first Adam and Eve had, to choose Life or death.
If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?
Perhaps God created people who given other alternatives would in the end of the matter choose to love Him first and foremost.
God did give men essentially two choices, to go their own way, or to go God's Way. It is spelled out well in Joshua:
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15
Jesus put it this way: "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24
In these verses and throughout scripture we see that God gave the authority to man to choose God or not. Even God would not take away that authority from man. He wanted man to return the authority to God [as in surrendering or subjecting oneself to God], but the decision to hold onto the reins or not remained for men to make. That is the essence man's so-called "free-will": to choose God or himself.
God wants a group of people who when given another choice chose Him. The alternative can be for the moment very attractive to men. They have been seduced by the alternative from the time of the Garden of Eden up to the present day.
God cannot change His own Word. That is one of His limitations, if you want to call it that. God by His Word gave man the authority to limit God. Man has done exactly that all too often:
"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41
Man alone can do nothing, that is nothing in the eyes of God, for anything that is not good is nothing in the eyes of God:
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5
But man can pervert good things. He has proven himself able to do that. Remember these words:
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31
It was all "very good" until God's creatures used their God-given authority to corrupt it. They have chosen corruption instead of God.
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Gen 1:28
Man was given the dominion and that was OK as long as he remained innocent and consulted regularly with God and left the real decisions in God's hands. Everything was "very good" until men started making decisions, which only God was able to competently make:
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23
In the Garden man ate of the fruit which gave him knowledge of things without real understanding. It was knowledge in darkness. The Light was necessary to understand. But... men have most often chosen to follow the way of darkness which is his own way. All of God's creation was "very good" and would remain so if God was obeyed in the proper Way to use that creation.
God always understood that men would go astray and exalt himself rather than his Creator. There would, however, be a few who would look to God where help was always waiting... God also knew this.
Men always think they are right. We see it on this forum in discussions. But... even in the scriptures we cannot easily admit that we might be wrong. We need to learn to see it as God sees it in order to please Him. That is what He wants. That is the "strait" and the "narrow...way":
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:14
God gave Solomon so much wisdom, but even having it, he still messed up in his own life, did he not?
"Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Prov 3:7
"All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits." Prov 16:2
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts" Prov 21:2
So what is it God wants for us? What is it He has for us? Solomon had wisdom and knowledge, but those were not the most important things.
Paul spells it out for us here:
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not charity (love), I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not charity (love), I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not charity (love), it profits me nothing." I Cor 13:1-3
Charity (or love) is the thing and what exactly is that?
It is the only thing that would make us pleasing to God and He is very willing to put it in us:
"And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him." I John 4:16
So what is God then that is to be in us? Again to Paul...
"Charity (Love) suffers long and is kind; charity does not envy; charity does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." I Cor 13:4-7
Paul expresses it differently here:
"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Col 1:27
That is, in effect, God in us!
But... the point is that we must choose it over all of our own ways. We cannot make it happen, but it is our choice whether it will happen or not. If we choose rightly and continue to choose rightly the Holy Spirit will work in us cleaning out the garbage and bringing to Life in us the Word of God. Why do you think Paul said..?
"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19
The Spirit, God in us, alone can do the work, but we still decide whether God is allowed to bring His work to completion in us or not. We can, and too often do, quench the Holy Spirit and go our own ways. God gave us the authority, but He wants us to give it back to Him daily, continuously. Will we do it?
Glory to His name!
What happened to the first ten children of Job? Should we try to second guess God. Are our ways then always His Way? Do we always have His mind?
There is answer in revelation 22 of where people go and end up. It’s slim information but still informative.
Perhaps those of Job ended up in hell just like everyone else did before Christ came and overcame Sheol.
Would you consider it plausible @amadeus?
Everyone from Adam to Christ all went to Hell. To Paradise/ or the prison part, or tarturus. Jesus overcame it now today… let’s not forget what Jesus has done and overcame.
Jesus went to hell himself and God resurrected him from that place back to earth, for a little while before the ascension and then the coming back to get the bride.
Perhaps those of Job ended up in hell just like everyone else did before Christ came and overcame Sheol.
Would you consider it plausible @amadeus?
Everyone from Adam to Christ all went to Hell. To Paradise/ or the prison part, or tarturus. Jesus overcame it now today… let’s not forget what Jesus has done and overcame.
Jesus went to hell himself and God resurrected him from that place back to earth, for a little while before the ascension and then the coming back to get the bride.
Did not Jesus enter into to hell when he came to planet Earth as a man being subject to pain and suffering and temptations as other men? Were we not all born in hell, but then God had a plan which included sending His Son into hell to provide us to opportunity to get out of this place of death.
My brother and friend, Ama,
I believe the Hell what is known as Sheol is largely misrepresented today by the mass majority of people.
They believe hell is a fire place of burning when it is really the abode and realm of the dead, where souls were collected over a period of time in Paradise (Abrahams bosom it is called), or the prison part (where those who died in Noahs age resided), there is also a place where angels were bound in chains for a time period (1Peter, or 1Thess).
All people who died from Adam to Christ - all went to Sheol the abode of the death, the covering place for the realm of the dead where souls were collected until hell - and its contents were dumped out as according to Revelation.
Hell forever? Not according to scripture. Considering that upon further inspection you will find that hell, and death are done away with and the second death occurred all death has been overcame by Jesus Christ.
Thus people who die now today, all of us are resurrected... doesn't matter if one placed faith on Jesus or not. If you did that is just a bonus for your humbleness to serve the Creator God who sent his Son to do everything that no one else could do in the first place... You accepted and become a child of God, and if you decide to suffer your will to Gods own will, you can grow to become a Son or Daughter of God on merit of your own trusting in God and trusting him to deliver you while you are living and breathing in this world when evil thoughts come to your mind and heart, according to scriptures one will be rewarded and God will reward you a certain spiritual body just made for you, as you built your spiritual treasury in heaven while on earth. Standing on the foundation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe the Hell what is known as Sheol is largely misrepresented today by the mass majority of people.
They believe hell is a fire place of burning when it is really the abode and realm of the dead, where souls were collected over a period of time in Paradise (Abrahams bosom it is called), or the prison part (where those who died in Noahs age resided), there is also a place where angels were bound in chains for a time period (1Peter, or 1Thess).
All people who died from Adam to Christ - all went to Sheol the abode of the death, the covering place for the realm of the dead where souls were collected until hell - and its contents were dumped out as according to Revelation.
Hell forever? Not according to scripture. Considering that upon further inspection you will find that hell, and death are done away with and the second death occurred all death has been overcame by Jesus Christ.
Thus people who die now today, all of us are resurrected... doesn't matter if one placed faith on Jesus or not. If you did that is just a bonus for your humbleness to serve the Creator God who sent his Son to do everything that no one else could do in the first place... You accepted and become a child of God, and if you decide to suffer your will to Gods own will, you can grow to become a Son or Daughter of God on merit of your own trusting in God and trusting him to deliver you while you are living and breathing in this world when evil thoughts come to your mind and heart, according to scriptures one will be rewarded and God will reward you a certain spiritual body just made for you, as you built your spiritual treasury in heaven while on earth. Standing on the foundation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Who calls you a heretic? Your message is simple and Biblical enough, I think.
But to be fair there is more going on to hinder the Gospel than just ecumenism. Although, like I've said many times, to each person is given a burden for some aspect of the Gospel that he fears is being neglected. Sometimes they are misguided, I admit, but we are all seeking after God and He will correct us. I know this is not true for all of us, but I believe all things, hope all things, bear and endure all things, as it is ordained.
The harlot will rise and be revealed; of that, there can be no doubt, and she will deceive many—even the elect, if it were possible. And isn't it interesting that the harlot is the same entity as the man of sin, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God? Who could that be?
It's hard for me to imagine the rationale of apostolic succession after reading this:
Matthew 20
20Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. 22But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. 25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
No, I disagree that there was ever the possibility of option #2. God has always wanted people who love him so much that they would exercise faith in him. God explains that to us very simply right from the beginning concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Obedience is better than a sacrifice God tells us in the scriptures and he wants those who are obedient to his commands because of the faith they have in him and they have such faith because of the love they have for the True God.Those who are unrepentant habitual sinners are not those who love God so much that they have faith in him. Those who truly love God and exercise faith in him are the ones that he wants. A person must make the choice to want to know the true God and his Only Begotten Son, which means they must make the choice to read and study God's word and put into practice what they learn from reading and studying the scriptures.
So as I said God tells us in the scriptures obedience is better than a sacrifice. This
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
The concept of God having options and not having options is so foreign to my mind that it's like saying 2+2=5.
Job 11
1Then answered Zophar the Naamathite, and said,
2Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?
3Should thy lies make men hold their peace? and when thou mockest, shall no man make thee ashamed?
4For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes.
5But oh that God would speak, and open his lips against thee;
6And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that they are double to that which is! Know therefore that God exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth.
7Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
8It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
9The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
10If he cut off, and shut up, or gather together, then who can hinder him?
Job 11
1Then answered Zophar the Naamathite, and said,
2Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?
3Should thy lies make men hold their peace? and when thou mockest, shall no man make thee ashamed?
4For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes.
5But oh that God would speak, and open his lips against thee;
6And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that they are double to that which is! Know therefore that God exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth.
7Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
8It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
9The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
10If he cut off, and shut up, or gather together, then who can hinder him?
You don't want to debate and your post is lengthy with several items I would have to cover a lot to state my own position. We'll leave it here then...
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
He has given them eternal life with forgiveness but they don't want it. They have had the wool sufficiently pulled over their eyes where the forgiveness which is theirs is rejected.
Ultimately they will suicide just as Judas did. Revelation 6:15-17 reads like this:
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
They see a lamb coming on the clouds of heaven and they figure he is wrathful. Whenever has a lamb been a scary sight or wrathful? ....yet they are petrified to the point of calling for the rocks and mountains to fall on them.
Their reality is so warped because they have alienated themselves from God, fear overwhelms them at the sight of a lamb.
What is presented here is a scene of mass suicide.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Forgiveness understood and embraced at a heart level will usher in a new birth, ie a change in direction and a longing for connection with the one who 'paid' such an immense price to change your mind from futile ways of thinking to, as Paul puts it, the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
bbyrd009
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bbyrd009
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Gehenna is on earth, but our norse/angle (kjv) scribes just likely had no better term to translate into i guess?
BarneyFife
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bbyrd009
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Then would it be men confusing men with their translations?
See the discussions about different English translations on this very forum... Are men going to solve their own problem of being unable to agree what the scripture says and what it means?
As always it seems men want to leave out God taking the lead themselves...!
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23
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