What is truth?

[Matthias]

only God existed before the creation!

The angels were also present before the creation, but neither you nor I believe Jesus preexisted as an angel.

If all things were created by Jesus Christ then he must be God!

Some unitarians would agree with that; other unitarians wouldn’t.

I’m going to ask you to try to do something that is difficult. I don’t know if you can do it or not, but let’s try. Just for a moment, put yourself in the shoes of someone who has never read the Bible. You’re not a Roman Catholic; you’re an illiterate nomad, roaming somewhere in a desert.

One day, you meet a man crossing the desert and strike up a pleasant conversation with him. The man wants to tell you something, and this is what he says:

“I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. …”

You, the illiterate nomad, interrupt the man - who is reciting the Apostles’ Creed to you - and tell him that you have questions about what he is saying that just can’t wait. The man replies he has more to say to you - he wants to finish reciting the Creed to you - but you insist that your question at this point is urgent, and the man, seeing the excitement in your face and hearing the urgency in your voice, consents to your request.

You tell the man that you have questions about this Jesus Christ, but before you ask about him you first want to ask about “the Creator of Heaven and earth”.

Who, precisely, are you, the illiterate nomad (just for a moment, if possible) asking the Creed-reciting man about?

the divinity of Christ and the holy trinity are Christian faith and doctrine reveled by Christ to reject them is to reject Christ his holy church, and salvation

Trinitarianism in a nutshell.

But Christ isn’t a trinitarian; he is a Jew who himself has a God; his God is “the Creator of Heaven and earth”.

Jesus and the earliest Christians are Jews; unitarians, not trinitarians.

 

[Matthias]

John 1:10 is written by a NT Jew.

Colossians 1:16 is written by a NT Jew.

So, when you teach that God as Jesus Manifested in the Flesh, from a Virgin, 1 Timothy 3:16... then be sure to use those 2 verses.

One teaches that Jesus made the world.

The other teaches that all things were made through him, and He currently is holding everything together..... all the parts of the universe.

This is why Jesus said, subsequent to being raised from the dead, that "all power is given to me, in heaven and on earth".
And that would make sense, as God would obviously have "all power".

John, like Peter, Paul and Jesus, is a Jew. His God, Peter’s God, Paul’s God, and Jesus’ God is the God of Israel. They are all in full agreement on the identity of their God.

All power wasn’t given by God to God. All power was given by God to a particular Jew - Jesus of Nazareth.

The Jew whom God gave all power to is functioning as his God.

 

[Matthias]

only God existed before the creation!
If all things were created by Jesus Christ then he must be God!

What if all things were actually created by his God, the Father? (See the Apostles’ Creed.)

the divinity of Christ and the holy trinity are Christian faith and doctrine reveled by Christ to reject them is to reject Christ his holy church, and salvation

“Glory be to the Three adorable persons of the Holy Trinity, now and forever.”

Prayer to the Holy Trinity - Prayers - Catholic Online

That sounds to me like part of a prayer that could be offered by any trinitarian. We should be able to agree that it doesn’t sound like a prayer that would be offered by a unitarian.

What would a prayer offered by a unitarian sound like? I suggest that it would sound something like the following:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

If we were to ask Jesus Christ himself - a Jew - to teach us how to pray (Matthew 6; Luke 11), would his answer sound like the trinitarian prayer or the unitarian prayer?

 

[theefaith]

This was your reply to what Matthias wrote? -- Jesus and the apostles are neither trinitarians nor Arians; they are Jews."

Try reading the Bible. He is correct: they were all Jews. As usual, what is thought is wrong.

I would not want to be called a Jew!

hard hearted
Perfidious rejectors of their own salvation
Killers of Christ the only savior of the world
Their house is desolate Matt 23:38

 

[theefaith]

The first Christians were still Jews.

Christianity is Jewish, in the beginning. It later separated from Judaism and, as Church history documents, gradually transitioned to the trinitarian faith.

the perfidious Jews rejected their own salvation and killed their own savior and now have been dispersed to wander the world with the spiritual mark of Cain for killing their brother Jesus

 

[theefaith]

You’re offering me here trinitarian commentary on scripture written by Jews.

the New Testament was written by the church

 

[theefaith]

You’re offering me here trinitarian commentary on scripture written by Jews.

the Jews are outcasts rejected by God

 

[Matthias]

the perfidious Jews rejected their own salvation and killed their own savior and now have been dispersed to wander the world with the spiritual mark of Cain for killing their brother Jesus

See those Jews who didn’t. The earliest Church was comprised almost exclusively with Jews who believed that “their brother Jesus” is the Messiah promised and raised up by his and their God.

 

[Matthias]

the New Testament was written by the church

Yes, and the Church was a sect of Judaism; Jewish.

 

[Matthias]

the Jews are outcasts rejected by God

The God of the Jews wants all people - Jews and Gentiles alike - to be saved.

 

[Matthias]

the New Testament was written by the church

And what of the Old Testament? Also written by Jews.

As a Roman Catholic, don’t you also accept other writings of Jews as canonical?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4 Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14



God does not reveal His truth in a vacuum!

God does not set His true adrift on a sea of spiritual anarchy!

God sets His truth in His church, in the possession of His apostles to safeguard, to ensure it is not added to, or taken away from, or changed in any way!

And to teach the same truth to all nations and all ages!

Verified by scripture:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost!

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints!

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness!
(all scripture not 66 books alone)

Must be instructed in the faith:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations…

Jn 29:21-23 as the father sent me, so I send you. (Same mission, power, and authority to teach all nations)

Lk 10:16 He who hears you, (His apostles) hear me.

Jn 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 8:32 You (the apostles) shall know the truth; and the truth shall make you free.

Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(His apostles)

What is truth?

There was a city and in that city was a young boy who used to ride his sister's bike over everyone's yard. One day an old man confronted the lad asking, "How did those ruts get in my yard?" The boy answered, "those ruts were caused by my sister's bike." The boy's answer was factual, but was he telling the truth?

Think about it.

 

[theefaith]

The angels were also present before the creation, but neither you nor I believe Jesus preexisted as an angel.



Some unitarians would agree with that; other unitarians wouldn’t.

I’m going to ask you to try to do something that is difficult. I don’t know if you can do it or not, but let’s try. Just for a moment, put yourself in the shoes of someone who has never read the Bible. You’re not a Roman Catholic; you’re an illiterate nomad, roaming somewhere in a desert.

One day, you meet a man crossing the desert and strike up a pleasant conversation with him. The man wants to tell you something, and this is what he says:

“I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. …”

You, the illiterate nomad, interrupt the man - who is reciting the Apostles’ Creed to you - and tell him that you have questions about what he is saying that just can’t wait. The man replies he has more to say to you - he wants to finish reciting the Creed to you - but you insist that your question at this point is urgent, and the man, seeing the excitement in your face and hearing the urgency in your voice, consents to your request.

You tell the man that you have questions about this Jesus Christ, but before you ask about him you first want to ask about “the Creator of Heaven and earth”.

Who, precisely, are you, the illiterate nomad (just for a moment, if possible) asking the Creed-reciting man about?



Trinitarianism in a nutshell.

But Christ isn’t a trinitarian; he is a Jew who himself has a God; his God is “the Creator of Heaven and earth”.

Jesus and the earliest Christians are Jews; unitarians, not trinitarians.

no the angels are part of creation!

in the beginning God alone exists
God alone is eternal and uncreated

Christ is God and creator

apostles creed is supported by scripture as the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42

 

[theefaith]

Jesus is worshipped!
Only God may be worshipped!

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

 

[theefaith]

Matt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

not by praying to God or in the name of God but in his own person by his own power!

only God has this power!

 

[Matthias]

no the angels are part of creation!

The angels are certainly part of creation but they were present when the world was created.

in the beginning God alone exists
God alone is eternal and uncreated

That’s right.

Christ is God and creator

See Christ’s God.

apostles creed is supported by scripture as the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42

The Apostles’ Creed identifies the Father as the creator.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus is worshipped!
Only God may be worshipped!

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

See 1 Chronicles 29:20.

 

[Matthias]

Matt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

not by praying to God or in the name of God but in his own person by his own power!

only God has this power!

See the power of other Jewish prophets.

 

[theefaith]

What if all things were actually created by his God, the Father? (See the Apostles’ Creed.)



“Glory be to the Three adorable persons of the Holy Trinity, now and forever.”

Prayer to the Holy Trinity - Prayers - Catholic Online

That sounds to me like part of a prayer that could be offered by any trinitarian. We should be able to agree that it doesn’t sound like a prayer that would be offered by a unitarian.

What would a prayer offered by a unitarian sound like? I suggest that it would sound something like the following:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

If we were to ask Jesus Christ himself - a Jew - to teach us how to pray (Matthew 6; Luke 11), would his answer sound like the trinitarian prayer or the unitarian prayer?

Glory be to the father, and to the son and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end! Amen!

and there are millions of miracles done by the sign of the cross!

in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit!

the Holy Spirit is also divine

 

[Matthias]

Glory be to the father, and to the son and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end! Amen!

Jesus is still a Jew and his God was, is and always will be only one person, the Father.

and there are millions of miracles done by the sign of the cross!

Okay.

in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit!

Okay.

the Holy Spirit is also divine

Personal, but not a third person in the Messiah’s religion.