What is truth?

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Matthias

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the Holy Spirit is also divine

“Even among adherents of the Nicene orthodoxy an uncertainty still for a time prevailed respecting the doctrine of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Some held the Spirit to be an impersonal power or attribute of God; others, at farthest, would not go beyond the expressions of the Scriptures. Gregory of Nazianzen, who, for his own part believed and taught the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, so late as 380 made the remarkable concession: ‘Of the wise among us, some consider the Holy Ghost an influence, others a creature, others God himself, and again others know not which way to decide, from reverence, as they say, for the Holy Scripture, which declares nothing exact in the case. For this reason they waver between worshipping and not worshipping the Holy Ghost, and strike a middle course, which is in fact, a bad one.”

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, §128 The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit)

HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*


Many Protestant’s aren’t familiar with Gregory of Nazianzen but I think that you, a Roman Catholic, probably are. He’s a major figure in Roman Catholicism / Church history.

The church in the 4th century was still struggling with the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Why?
 

Jim B

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I would not want to be called a Jew!

hard hearted
Perfidious rejectors of their own salvation
Killers of Christ the only savior of the world
Their house is desolate Matt 23:38

You've posted these lies before -- and they remain lies! Every single author of the "books" of the Bible (with the sole exception of Luke) was a Jew! Jesus was a Jew!!!

Saying that Jews are "hard hearted" is condemning the people whom God chose as His own. They are the root of the tree; you are a grafted-in branch!

Romans 11:16-21, "
If the first portion of the dough [the Jews] offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches.


Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root, do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you."

As I have written before, the Romans killed Jesus!!! Your clear anti-Semitic hatred has so distorted your mind that you don't even know what the Bible says!!!

I don't want to be you when you face the Lord and try to explain your clear hatred of God's people!!! Even your beloved non-virgin Mary was a Jew!!! Better pray to her and ask for forgiveness for your clear hatred of her and her people!
 

Jim B

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Listen, theefaith, if you hate Jews, you hate...

Your beloved (non-virgin) Mary (actually Miriam)
Her firstborn: the Messiah, Jesus Christ!
All the apostles!
Every single author of the "books" of the Bible
(except Luke)
God's chosen people, the "root of the tree" that supports you.

Now read what the great apostle Paul, a Jew, wrote, then get on your knees and pray to God to forgive your blasphemies!!! Perhaps He will, but perhaps He won't!!!

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed—cut off from Christ—for the sake of my people, my fellow countrymen, who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen." Romans 9:3-5

If you hate Jews, you hate the Savior!!!
 
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theefaith

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See those Jews who didn’t. The earliest Church was comprised almost exclusively with Jews who believed that “their brother Jesus” is the Messiah promised and raised up by his and their God.

Lk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jn 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John brought them to Jesus

Jesus is the Lord their God!
 

theefaith

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Yes, and the Church was a sect of Judaism; Jewish.

Lk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Jesus visited and redeemed the people, Jesus is the horn of salvation!

Jesus is eternal God!
 

theefaith

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The God of the Jews wants all people - Jews and Gentiles alike - to be saved.

Matt 5: 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, (by God) Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Only God gave the commandments only God can change them!
 

theefaith

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And what of the Old Testament? Also written by Jews.

As a Roman Catholic, don’t you also accept other writings of Jews as canonical?

those canonized by the church
Ever read Dan 13?

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Only God can be this!

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Only God!

God breathe’s life!

1st creation:

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

New creation:

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
 

Jim B

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Lk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jn 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John brought them to Jesus

Jesus is the Lord their God!

So now you're retreating from your previous anti-Semitism? What is your position regarding the Jewish people and Christ? One day you hate them, the next day you acknowledge them. What is your position regarding the Jews??
 

theefaith

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The divinity / trinity are Christian doctrine to be accepted or rejected
Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18
Bound on earth bound in heaven

Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 the church of the apostles has the truth!
And is the truth! Matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Fundamentalism drives a wedge between Christ and his church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Extends to the truth and the church

Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
 

Jim B

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The divinity / trinity are Christian doctrine to be accepted or rejected
Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18
Bound on earth bound in heaven

Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 the church of the apostles has the truth!
And is the truth! Matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Fundamentalism drives a wedge between Christ and his church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Extends to the truth and the church

Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Catholic doctrine drives a wedge between Christ and his true church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

The apostles, who were all Jews, were Christ’s successors! There are no Catholic apostles! Scripture doesn't mention them anywhere.

Christ is the truth and only Protestantism teaches the truth without error! The Catholic denomination teaches one lie after another and has a history of murdering those who don't submit to its false authority and false doctrine.

Christian rule of faith is the Bible alone, not the false doctrines of men! Sola scriptura!
 

Illuminator

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“Even among adherents of the Nicene orthodoxy an uncertainty still for a time prevailed respecting the doctrine of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Some held the Spirit to be an impersonal power or attribute of God; others, at farthest, would not go beyond the expressions of the Scriptures. Gregory of Nazianzen, who, for his own part believed and taught the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, so late as 380 made the remarkable concession: ‘Of the wise among us, some consider the Holy Ghost an influence, others a creature, others God himself, and again others know not which way to decide, from reverence, as they say, for the Holy Scripture, which declares nothing exact in the case. For this reason they waver between worshipping and not worshipping the Holy Ghost, and strike a middle course, which is in fact, a bad one.”

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, §128 The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit)

']']HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*


Many Protestant’s aren’t familiar with Gregory of Nazianzen but I think that you, a Roman Catholic, probably are. He’s a major figure in Roman Catholicism / Church history.

The church in the 4th century was still struggling with the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Why?
Why? Because so many heresies were still lingering. That's why councils were convened. The First Council of Constantinople defined the divinity of the Holy Spirit (381). Defined and clarified, not invented.
First Council of Constantinople | Description, History, Doctrine, & Significance
St. Gregory Nazianzen | EWTN
 
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Jim B

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theefaith

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See 1 Chronicles 29:20.

yes the king is worshipped

20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lordyour God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king

Lk 1:32-33
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Jesus is the king Jesus is worshipped
 

theefaith

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Jesus is still a Jew and his God was, is and always will be only one person, the Father.



Okay.



Okay.



Personal, but not a third person in the Messiah’s religion.

The Father is God
Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Psalm 68:5
Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is God in his holy habitation.

Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isaiah 63:16
For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

2 Corinthians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 8:41
You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.”

1 Thessalonians 3:13
So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus.

Jesus is God
Isaiah 7:14
All right then, the Lord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Matt. 4:7
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God.

John 1:3
ALL things were made by HIM (Jesus); and without him was not ANY thing made that was made.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30
“I and the Father are one."

John 15:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 5:3-4
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to GOD.

2 Corinthians 4:4
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Philippians 2:6
...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Colossians 2:9
...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

The Holy Spirit is God
John 14:16-18
And I will pray the Father, and He will give you *ANOTHER Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
*This word in Greek means, “another of the SAME kind.”

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord IS the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU?

John 14:23
Jesus replied: "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him and WE will come to him and make OUR home with him.

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."
 
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Matthias

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Why? Because so many heresies were still lingering. That's why councils were convened. The First Council of Constantinople defined the divinity of the Holy Spirit (381). Defined and clarified, not invented.
First Council of Constantinople | Description, History, Doctrine, & Significance
St. Gregory Nazianzen | EWTN

“It is impossible to document what we now call orthodoxy in the first two centuries of Christianity; heresy often appears more prominently, so much so that orthodoxy looks like a reaction to it. But we can document orthodoxy for all the centuries since then - in other words, for close to seventeen centuries of the church’s existence.”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church, p. 5)

So what is the prominent “heresy” which our trinitarian author says orthodoxy is a reaction to? Jewish unitary monotheism.

The church was still struggling to educate and enforce the formulated doctrine of the Holy Spirit because it was gradually moving away from Jewish belief about the Holy Spirit.
 

Matthias

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Lk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jn 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John brought them to Jesus

Jesus is the Lord their God!

John the Baptist is a Jewish prophet. Jesus of Nazareth is a Jewish prophet. The children of Israel were Jews. This is a Jewish story, not a trinitarian story.

“The Lord their God” is the God of John the Baptist, the God of Jesus of Nazareth, the God of the children of Israel / the Jews. “The Lord their God” isn’t Jesus of Nazareth, nor the Trinity. “The Lord their God,” as has been demonstrated, is the Father.

Trinitarianism is still centuries away from our Jewish story.
 

Matthias

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those canonized by the church

The Church canonized writings of Jews - see your personal thoughts on the Jews.

Ever read Dan 13?

Yes. And 14.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Only God can be this!

Only a Jewish man can be this; the man Jesus Christ.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Only God!

Only a Jewish man.

God breathe’s life!

Okay.

1st creation:

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Jewish man’s God.

New creation:

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Yes. The Jewish man has a prominent role in the new creation.
 

theefaith

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“Even among adherents of the Nicene orthodoxy an uncertainty still for a time prevailed respecting the doctrine of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Some held the Spirit to be an impersonal power or attribute of God; others, at farthest, would not go beyond the expressions of the Scriptures. Gregory of Nazianzen, who, for his own part believed and taught the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, so late as 380 made the remarkable concession: ‘Of the wise among us, some consider the Holy Ghost an influence, others a creature, others God himself, and again others know not which way to decide, from reverence, as they say, for the Holy Scripture, which declares nothing exact in the case. For this reason they waver between worshipping and not worshipping the Holy Ghost, and strike a middle course, which is in fact, a bad one.”

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, §128 The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit)

']HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*


Many Protestant’s aren’t familiar with Gregory of Nazianzen but I think that you, a Roman Catholic, probably are. He’s a major figure in Roman Catholicism / Church history.

The church in the 4th century was still struggling with the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Why?

Nicene Creed!

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen.