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charity

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First off thanks for being prepared to engage in a reasoned discussion.

There are several reasons that point to this fact.

First the aspect of being personally indwelled with God Himself is the unique aspect of this New Covenant, prophesied to come.

Then there is the reference to the 'time of the Jews' and the 'time of the Gentiles' One Covenant for both but at different time periods.

Paul plainly speaks of 'all Israel' being saved and this is not yet fulfilled in reference to the nation of Israel. Yet it is fulfilled in that the Israel of faith through the promises given to Abraham, enjoys during this time, the promised indwelling presence as stated.

Thirdly the Messianic Jews of today are not considered to be under a different Covenant.

Fourthly the Disciples who surely received this promise and entered into this New Covenant themselves testified, with surprise, that the Gentiles were receiving exactly the same blessing and indwelling from God as they did. One Covenant - all Nations.

Lastly if this promise is yet to be fulfilled then believing Jews today would not be receiving the indwelling presence.

You will notice that I don't buy into 'replacement theology' nor do I believe the Old Covenant was a Covenant of Salvation. The only way to God and eternal life always was/is through Christ via the promises given to Abraham, for all mankind, appropriated by faith.

When God tore the temple curtain, the Old Covenant ended - God Himself desecrated the Temple.

It does seem to me however that in the restoration of all things (New Heaven and New Earth) when the New Jerusalem descends, the saved Jews will occupy the New Jerusalem and the promised Land of Israel.
I offer this perspective for your kind consideration.
Hello @Carl Emerson,

Thank you for showing me your perspective on this subject. Forgive my brevity, but I can but give you mine:-

As a member of the Church of the One Body, with me there is no contractual agreement of any kind, no covenant, no testament, for my completeness is in Christ. In Titus 1:2, I am told that eternal life was, 'promised before the world began'. 2 Timothy 1:9 says that the believer was called according to the Lord's own purpose and grace, 'which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'. Ephesians 1:4 says that such were 'chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world'. Here are covenants, agreements, promises, but they were not made either 'with' or 'to' us, they were all made in and with Christ. In 2 Corinthians 3 & 4 we are told that everything turns on two mediators - Moses and Christ. I am just so thankful that there are no contractual arrangements made with me, for I should surely break them. No, thankfully, all is with Christ, our risen and glorified, Saviour, Lord and Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

* The Church of the One Body of which Christ is the Head. See Romans 5:12-8:39, (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon): Paul's later epistles, written from prison, following Divine revelation concerning the Church which is Christ's Body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all (Ephesians 1:22-23).
 
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GRACE ambassador

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Can't violating your conscience shipwreck your faith? 1 Timothy 1:19
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Thanks for the great question. This deep study may be helpful:
Are you Certain your Salvation Is Certain?
http:// GRACE And Peace...
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

[URL='https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/gods-very-simple-will-under-his-pure-grace.39214/']GRACE And Peace...[/URL]
 

Behold

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Can't stop thinking about hell, can you.
Have you ever read Phiippians 4:8 ?

Im never completely convinced that a person who does not understand, God's Grace, is actually Saved.
Ive met so many Religious but lost People, who quote verses ... yet have no understanding of The Blood Atonement....that i will purposely talk about Hell to THEM, so that if possible i can create a window for God to shine into them His Grace, so that they can stop trying to save themselves on their way to hell, if in fact as i suspect, they are not actually born again.

Water baptized, YES
Religious, Yes.
Born again, NO
 
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Ferris Bueller

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When a person gets saved ,his Nature becomes “ two- fold” — he inherits the Spirit Of God and it is *THAT* SPIRIT that can NEVER Sin!
Let's test this teaching of the Gnostics against what Paul, whom you follow, says:

"1Therefore, beloved, since we have these promises, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that defiles body and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Corinthians 7:1

Paul had been a Believer and of course, a Saved man , for at least Ten years when he wrote about HIS struggle with sin in Romans 7—NOT doing the things that he knew he should do and in fact, doing just the opposite — doing the things that he hated! He’s talking about * SIN*!
He's talking about his pre-conversion experience of trying to be obedient to God in the flesh while still a slave to sin (believers are not slaves to sin). He goes on in Romans 8 to explain how Christ and the indwelling Spirit in salvation is the answer to the impossible task of living for God in the flesh alone without the Spirit. Romans 7 is not the Christians excuse for living in sin (and certainly not while their spirit stays undefiled). The person who lives in sin is not born again. They do not have the Spirit.
 

BloodBought 1953

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If Abraham is the Father of all who have faith and the salvation promises are from the Abrahamic Covenant, how do we view the salvation of those Pre Abraham ???


I think we can refer to Romans chapter One to answer these questions......those that were never given The Law as the Jews were, have it their hearts and will be judged accordingly.......Everybody is “ without excuse”....” what can be known about God is clear to them , because God has “ made” it clear to them”........instead of turning “ To” God for Salvation, they have turned “ away” from God....
 

BloodBought 1953

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Let's test this teaching of the Gnostics against what Paul, whom you follow, says:

"1Therefore, beloved, since we have these promises, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that defiles body and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Corinthians 7:1


He's talking about his pre-conversion experience of trying to be obedient to God in the flesh while still a slave to sin (believers are not slaves to sin). He goes on in Romans 8 to explain how Christ and the indwelling Spirit in salvation is the answer to the impossible task of living for God in the flesh alone without the Spirit. Romans 7 is not the Christians excuse for living in sin (and certainly not while their spirit stays undefiled). The person who lives in sin is not born again. They do not have the Spirit.



Paul’s writings in Romans 7 is illustrating the Struggle That “ALL” Christians have with Sin....we all “ want” to do what is right , but many times we find ourselves doing just the “ opposite “ Of what is right....we give in to temptation (“ the SPIRIT is Willing , But The FLESH is weak—- even Jesus said That there was a Struggle!) .....yes, we all “ Stumble” as even James admitted....
If Paul was saying this was his experience BEFORE he got Saved, why didn’t he just say so? Where else in the Bible does a person speak CLEARLY in the Present Tense ( I * DO * what I Don’t Want to Do!) and we have to “ Pretend” that he is speaking of things in the past? It’s silly and stupid......it is promoted this way by Unsaved people who think they no longer Sin—- a Saved man knows better....

Here is the Proof that Romans 7 was not written by a Paul that was not Saved yet....Paul said that he “ DELIGHTED IN THE LAW”—— an Unsaved Man does not “ Delight in the Law”, any more than a Sane man writes in the Present tense to talk about things that happened in the past....show my ANYWHERE ELSE—Whether in the Bible or even in Secular writings —- where “ANYBODY” Does That....It could not be any clearer —- this is NOT a “ pre-Saved” Paul talking here....talk about “ TWISTING” the Word of God!
Even towards the End Of His Ministry , Paul admitted that he never attained the level of Christian Living that he desired to live....it’s a Life-Long Struggle, this War between the “ White Dog” and the “ Black Dog”....The “ Dog” you FEED the most will be the one that dominates .....feed that Black Dog and you will face the Earthly Consequences by Gods Chastisements —- if we don’t STILL have a part of that Old Adamic Nature In us, why do we still sin , and if you say we DON’T have a Struggle with Sin as shown by Paul and if you say that we DON’T sin at all after we get Saved, why does God have to have His “ Chastisement Plan” for His Children ? Does He punish us for NOT Sinning? And why is Jesus our “ Advocate” at the Throne Of God If we don’t sin? Nobody needs a type of “ Defense Attorney” if they never do anything wrong....Jesus is constantly pleading for us ....I guess he “ pleads” for no reason.....
With the indwelling Holy Spirit Inside the Believer, The instances of Sinning “ should” decrease....But you are STILL gonna need a TON of Grace to stand before God ......You might be improved but you ain’t Sinless quite yet....not until you get your “ Incorruptible Body” after you die....yep, Believers even as “ Righteous” as Paul continue to sin ( wanna talk about those pesky “ Sins Of OMISSION? ) throughout their Faith Walk and you need Grace and plenty of it—- It’s the ONLY thing that Saves and you continue to reject it....perhaps “ Grace rejectors” reject that Grace because they have NEVER experienced it....that’s a scary place to be.....

Be like Paul—- admit the obvious and thank God for His Grace—— you may not “ want” to sin like you did in the past but if you are honest, you will admit that you still do—— everyday.Stop Living a Lie.
 

Carl Emerson

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I think we can refer to Romans chapter One to answer these questions......those that were never given The Law as the Jews were, have it their hearts and will be judged accordingly.......Everybody is “ without excuse”....” what can be known about God is clear to them , because God has “ made” it clear to them”........instead of turning “ To” God for Salvation, they have turned “ away” from God....

Including Adam and Eve ???
 

Carl Emerson

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Hello @Carl Emerson,

Thank you for showing me your perspective on this subject. Forgive my brevity, but I can but give you mine:-

As a member of the Church of the One Body, with me there is no contractual agreement of any kind, no covenant, no testament, for my completeness is in Christ. In Titus 1:2, I am told that eternal life was, 'promised before the world began'. 2 Timothy 1:9 says that the believer was called according to the Lord's own purpose and grace, 'which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'. Ephesians 1:4 says that such were 'chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world'. Here are covenants, agreements, promises, but they were not made either 'with' or 'to' us, they were all made in and with Christ. In 2 Corinthians 3 & 4 we are told that everything turns on two mediators - Moses and Christ. I am just so thankful that there are no contractual arrangements made with me, for I should surely break them. No, thankfully, all is with Christ, our risen and glorified, Saviour, Lord and Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

* The Church of the One Body of which Christ is the Head. See Romans 5:12-8:39, (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon): Paul's later epistles, written from prison, following Divine revelation concerning the Church which is Christ's Body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all (Ephesians 1:22-23).

Yes - Gal 3 talks of the seed rather than seeds so all our Grace comes through Christ Himself.

However we rightly acknowledge the role Abraham played in the process and the title given of the Father of all who have faith.

We also acknowledge the Prophets inspired by God to reveal what was to come in Christ.

This knowledge gives weight to our security in Him.

Christ has no rivals and the suggestion that He will stop the good work He has begun in us and promised to continue is blasphemous.

This is what this thread is all about and Satan is hellbent in ripping confidence in their salvation out of the hearts of believers.
 

Behold

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This is what this thread is all about and Satan is hellbent in ripping confidence in their salvation out of the hearts of believers.

Yes, that is the the truth.

The devil is "hell bent for leather" to rob a believer of Faith in Christ, and FLIP IT, subvert it into.>"here is how i keep myself saved", which is actually Christ and CROSS rejection pretending to be "a Christian".

And the other thing the Devil will send constantly to forums, and to pulpits, is some Egocentric and utterly self righteous Bible Corrector, who is full of the GREEK, among other things..... and his only ministry is to make you DOUBT the Word of God, which pleases His father to the MAXX.

So, if the Devil can make you believe that you can go to hell, born again, then he has destroyed your faith, and next.... if a DARK LIGHT can rob you of your trust in the Word of God.....then reader, you are gone. You are "done for"......There is nothing you can do, as you are so subverted, that you are become spiritually chained.
 
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GodsGrace

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Whatever you say....you are too Bible - Ignorant to have a serious conversation.....I don’t know where to start with you, so I won’t.... please go somewhere and get some good teaching...perhaps Les Feldick .....I don’t have the time or patience to try to get you built up in proper Doctrine....I am not trying to be mean.....I have been “ learning” about the Christian Faith for over 40 years....HOURS a day—-EVERY day....how about you?

Of course that is no guarantee that I am correct in everything—- but don’t show your ignorance when you say “ I don’t care”.... you claim That I “ make up” my own Faith.....I think the same way about you....
Last words BB...
I'm not making up my own faith because I happened to have learned my faith in two different denominations, and a 3rd I know really well, and they teach the same as I'm posting here.

YOU, OTOH, are studying at home, reading, reading, reading, coming up with your own ideas.
Listening to preachers that OK what you believe, the ones that believe in cheap grace and easy believism.
Not my phrases, BTW, they are commonly accepted phrases within the Christian community to denote believers such as yourself that have some odd idea that Jesus did it all and so we are to do nothing.

What Jesus did is open the gates of heaven so that whoever wants to enter, can.
There are conditions however.
Yes. Conditions.
Please learn what they are since you're not on the correct path right now.

Jesus died to forgive the sins of the whole world, from the beginning till now.
There are different theories of atonement...I like the one that states that He bought us back from satan.
It's called the Ransom Theory.

I also like the Moral Influence Theory.
Which one do you adhere to mostly?

I say mostly because each one has a different version of truth,,,but they are all true.

YOU should really stop preaching some religion that is not the Christian faith.
It would be nice.
 

GodsGrace

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Im never completely convinced that a person who does not understand, God's Grace, is actually Saved.
Ive met so many Religious but lost People, who quote verses ... yet have no understanding of The Blood Atonement....that i will purposely talk about Hell to THEM, so that if possible i can create a window for God to shine into them His Grace, so that they can stop trying to save themselves on their way to hell, if in fact as i suspect, they are not actually born again.

Water baptized, YES
Religious, Yes.
Born again, NO
You're not God Behold.
Stop trying to figure out who's saved and who is not.

I know many person that don't know anything about the bible but are saved as saved can be.
You've got God cornered into a box.

God cannot be held in a box.
Especially not one that YOU have created.

Read the entire NT and get with the program.
If you're going to "teach" on these forums, then teach true Christianity and not some version YOU made up.

Read the following...if you dare.

https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf
 

BloodBought 1953

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Including Adam and Eve ???



If you are referring to those that “ turn away from God” ....it would be Adam and Eve “ ESPECIALLY!”....






Yes, that is the the truth.

The devil is "hell bent for leather" to rob a believer of Faith in Christ, and FLIP IT, subvert it into.>"here is how i keep myself saved", which is actually Christ and CROSS rejection pretending to be "a Christian".

And the other thing the Devil will send constantly to forums, and to pulpits, is some Egocentric and utterly self righteous Bible Corrector, who is full of the GREEK, among other things..... and his only ministry is to make you DOUBT the Word of God, which pleases His father to the MAXX.

So, if the Devil can make you believe that you can go to hell, born again, then he has destroyed your faith, and next.... if a DARK LIGHT can rob you of your trust in the Word of God.....then reader, you are gone. You are "done for"......There is nothing you can do, as you are so subverted, that you are become spiritually chained.





If Satan has “ lost” you....if you have escaped his lies and obtained Salvation by RESTING in the Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing, That “ Rest” is the thing that gives the Secure Believer Peace and Joy in his life....

This is the LAST thing that Satan wants....It’s bad enough for him that a Man gets Saved....if this Saved guy shows a new peace and a new Joy in his life since becoming a Christian, onlookers might start to get ideas! They might be tempted to check out Christianity because they notice that these Believers have something that they WANT!

Before I got Saved, I always kept my eye on a couple of people that I knew , thinking, “ What have they got that “ I” ain’t got ? They were always nice to everybody, nothing ever shook them up, they were always smiling , etc——- I WANTED that! I finally found out their secret! So Satan lost another one .....He wants to keep that kind of stuff at a minimum, of course....

“If somebody becomes a Believer”, reasons Satan—- “ lets at Least try to keep them doubting their Salvation and have them constantly having to try to reach a “ performance level” that is out of reach, and get them in a cycle of sin...repent....sin .....repent...so that they will be miserable , never knowing for certain if they have “ Repented” or “ performed” good enough.....Make them sour-faced, and judgmental and Joyless so people will not Want it be like them....in other words, let's make sure they are Super Religious—- kinda like, “ They don’t enter , nor they let others enter”.....NEVER let them have that “ Peace that passes Understanding” lest somebody would be tempted t check out how they got it!
 

Pearl

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Misty Williams

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Here is the thing....and I know I will take some heat for this.
I do not believe that "once saved always saved" is necessarily true. Well let me rephrase that...I don't believe that people who say they are a child of God actually are a child of God. I also do believe that Jesus is capable of blotting a name out of the lamb's book of life (Revelation says as much).

I could list several scriptures but I know this is a sensitive subject so I won't drag it out here, my point is, why wouold you want to tempt God in the first place? "Falling away" is described in the parable of the sower (matt 13):

5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

This verse is talking about believers! People who received the Word (seed), but weren't rooted in it and ended up withering away (falling away from Christ).

As I said, to me the more accurate question is, if you're that easily turned away from God, were you ever saved to begin with? I know the love of God and I could not imagine grieving Him by just deciding one day...well I'm done with this...I am not perfect and I screw up on the daily, but I could never do that to my Father.
 

Carl Emerson

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Here is the thing....and I know I will take some heat for this.
I do not believe that "once saved always saved" is necessarily true. Well let me rephrase that...I don't believe that people who say they are a child of God actually are a child of God. I also do believe that Jesus is capable of blotting a name out of the lamb's book of life (Revelation says as much).

I could list several scriptures but I know this is a sensitive subject so I won't drag it out here, my point is, why wouold you want to tempt God in the first place? "Falling away" is described in the parable of the sower (matt 13):

5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

This verse is talking about believers! People who received the Word (seed), but weren't rooted in it and ended up withering away (falling away from Christ).

As I said, to me the more accurate question is, if you're that easily turned away from God, were you ever saved to begin with? I know the love of God and I could not imagine grieving Him by just deciding one day...well I'm done with this...I am not perfect and I screw up on the daily, but I could never do that to my Father.

Maybe we should differentiate between those who are deceived and drawn away and those who refuse what is being offered ???

Paul in Galations 5 is rebuking the believers for falling into Law but doesn't treat them as lost.

We have to be careful also not to insist, that what God can do - He does do.

And your last sentence is evidence of the fear of God being within you to keep you saved.
 

charity

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Yes - Gal 3 talks of the seed rather than seeds so all our Grace comes through Christ Himself.

However we rightly acknowledge the role Abraham played in the process and the title given of the Father of all who have faith.

We also acknowledge the Prophets inspired by God to reveal what was to come in Christ.

This knowledge gives weight to our security in Him.

Christ has no rivals and the suggestion that He will stop the good work He has begun in us and promised to continue is blasphemous.

This is what this thread is all about and Satan is hellbent in ripping confidence in their salvation out of the hearts of believers.
Hello @Carl Emerson,

Yes, I agree, undermining the surety of God's promises, and denying the foundational truths of God's word!!
Our standing before God is sure, because it is based on His promises, and He is not a man that He should lie.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

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Maybe we should differentiate between those who are deceived and drawn away and those who refuse what is being offered ???

Paul in Galations 5 is rebuking the believers for falling into Law but doesn't treat them as lost.

We have to be careful also not to insist, that what God can do - He does do.

And your last sentence is evidence of the fear of God being within you to keep you saved.
You make excellent points (as always). I believe...and it saddens me to say this because I know God is grieved by it...there are going to be a LOT of "Christians" that are going to hear "I never knew you, depart from me". If you believe in the rapture (I do), then you can extend that by saying...I suspect there will be a lot of shocked people sitting in church pews after the rapture. It's unfortunate, but how can you be a child of the living God if you have no desire to change in you? If you don't feel the unction of the Holy Spirit to do what is right in the sight of God? Far be it from me to say who is and isn't in the lamb's book...thank goodness, that's far above my pay grade...but it's something to consider when someone is talking about willfully walking away from God and expecting the gates to swing wide for them in the hereafter.
p.s. I don't really consider them lost and pray for them to get rid of wrong thinking and have a personal relationship with God.
 
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Behold

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You're not God Behold.
Stop trying to figure out who's saved and who is not.
I know many person that don't know anything about the bible but are saved as saved can be.
You've got God cornered into a box.
Read the entire NT and get with the program.

The closest i can come to being God, is to have God in me.
"Christ in you, the hope of Glory"
"Temple of the Holy Spirit".
"one with God".
"in Christ".

Also. I can't get with your carnal "Program".
Legalism is not my theology, GodsGrace.

Listen,

The Cross of Christ is all God offers to accept you. John 14:6
Thats not a "box", that is God's : Salvation
 
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