New Covenant only for Jews?

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Jay Ross

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Why does it say the "New Covenant" Jesus made is only for the Jews?

Hebrews 8:8 - But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

Sadly, to many people do not look at the Greek text to see if the English context is the same of the English context.

Now when I say "new" in English, there are two possible ways of understanding this word: -

The object is brand new with respect to age, i.e. if it was a car, it has just come of the assembly line into your possession.
The object is new with respect to when the object was acquired, i.e. if it is a car, I have purchased a preloved car to replace the one I have traded in such that I can describe the car as being "my new car."

Now if I was using the Greek language to say "new with respect to age" I would use the Greek word "Neo." G:3501.

Now in the quoted verse, Heb.8:8 the Greek word translated as "new" in our English Translations is the Greek word, " καινήν, kainēn" and the greek Root this Greek word is derived from is: - "καινός kainos G:2537" and its meaning is given as :- "Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while neos is properly so with respect to age -- new" such that we can understand that the Heb. 8:8 text is actually saying: -

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a refreshed covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah."

Now if we consider the reference to Jer. 31:31, we will read that the covenant will be make like new again with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, not identically like the covenant that God made with Israel at Mt Sinai which they rebelled against, but this time, the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

The Mt Sinai Covenant is often referred to as The Kingdom of Priests, A Holy Nation and My Possession among the Nations Covenant.

Christ during His first advent did not make any "Neo"/new covenants with His disciples, but rather Christ refreshed the Ancient Covenant from the time of Adam which gives all who abide in the refurbished covenant, Salvation for all who believe.

In Matt. 13:52 Christ made a reference to this ancient Salvation Covenant from the Time of Adam in which Christ's sacrifice on the cross altered the process by which our salvation will be gained through our belief in Him.

Oh well, sadly a desire for something new will not get us our salvation as the only difference is how our sins are redeemed by God. This is not gained by our terms, but by the terms that God has now had put in place by Christ. The Salvation is still the same as it was back during the time of Adam, however the process by which this Salvation is obtained has been altered and it requires us to repent of our sins and to humble ourselves and accept His Salvation with Grace.

Shalom
 

covenantee

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Sadly, to many people do not look at the Greek text to see if the English context is the same of the English context.

Now when I say "new" in English, there are two possible ways of understanding this word: -

The object is brand new with respect to age, i.e. if it was a car, it has just come of the assembly line into your possession.
The object is new with respect to when the object was acquired, i.e. if it is a car, I have purchased a preloved car to replace the one I have traded in such that I can describe the car as being "my new car."

Now if I was using the Greek language to say "new with respect to age" I would use the Greek word "Neo." G:3501.

Now in the quoted verse, Heb.8:8 the Greek word translated as "new" in our English Translations is the Greek word, " καινήν, kainēn" and the greek Root this Greek word is derived from is: - "καινός kainos G:2537" and its meaning is given as :- "Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while neos is properly so with respect to age -- new" such that we can understand that the Heb. 8:8 text is actually saying: -

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a refreshed covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah."

Now if we consider the reference to Jer. 31:31, we will read that the covenant will be make like new again with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, not identically like the covenant that God made with Israel at Mt Sinai which they rebelled against, but this time, the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

The Mt Sinai Covenant is often referred to as The Kingdom of Priests, A Holy Nation and My Possession among the Nations Covenant.

Christ during His first advent did not make any "Neo"/new covenants with His disciples, but rather Christ refreshed the Ancient Covenant from the time of Adam which gives all who abide in the refurbished covenant, Salvation for all who believe.

In Matt. 13:52 Christ made a reference to this ancient Salvation Covenant from the Time of Adam in which Christ's sacrifice on the cross altered the process by which our salvation will be gained through our belief in Him.

Oh well, sadly a desire for something new will not get us our salvation as the only difference is how our sins are redeemed by God. This is not gained by our terms, but by the terms that God has now had put in place by Christ. The Salvation is still the same as it was back during the time of Adam, however the process by which this Salvation is obtained has been altered and it requires us to repent of our sins and to humble ourselves and accept His Salvation with Grace.

Shalom

2537 [e]
kainēn
καινήν ,
new
Adj-AFS

"new, which as recently made is superior to what it succeeds: διαθήκη, Matthew 26:28 (T WH omit καινά); Mark 14:24 R L; Luke 22:20 (WH reject the passage); 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 8:8"

"Refresh" does not appear in the definitions of 2537 [e].
 
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Johann

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Jesus and His apostles used the word "Church" over 100 times in Scripture.

It had no negative connotation for them.
And now, in the modern age, in the West, with over 6,000 denominations, yes, definitely a negative connotation.

Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Shimon Kefa [Petros] and upon this TSUR I will build my Kehillah, my Chavurah (the Community of Moshiach) and the shaarei Sheol (gates of Sheol) shall not overpower it.
OJB

....or
ἐκκλησία
a calling out

J.
 

covenantee

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And now, in the modern age, in the West, with over 6,000 denominations, yes, definitely a negative connotation.

Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Shimon Kefa [Petros] and upon this TSUR I will build my Kehillah, my Chavurah (the Community of Moshiach) and the shaarei Sheol (gates of Sheol) shall not overpower it.
OJB

....or
ἐκκλησία
a calling out

J.

There is an alternative.

It is the single denomination of the apostate Romanist church.
 

Johann

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Sadly, to many people do not look at the Greek text to see if the English context is the same of the English context.

Now when I say "new" in English, there are two possible ways of understanding this word: -

The object is brand new with respect to age, i.e. if it was a car, it has just come of the assembly line into your possession.
The object is new with respect to when the object was acquired, i.e. if it is a car, I have purchased a preloved car to replace the one I have traded in such that I can describe the car as being "my new car."

Now if I was using the Greek language to say "new with respect to age" I would use the Greek word "Neo." G:3501.

Now in the quoted verse, Heb.8:8 the Greek word translated as "new" in our English Translations is the Greek word, " καινήν, kainēn" and the greek Root this Greek word is derived from is: - "καινός kainos G:2537" and its meaning is given as :- "Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while neos is properly so with respect to age -- new" such that we can understand that the Heb. 8:8 text is actually saying: -

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a refreshed covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah."

Now if we consider the reference to Jer. 31:31, we will read that the covenant will be make like new again with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, not identically like the covenant that God made with Israel at Mt Sinai which they rebelled against, but this time, the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

The Mt Sinai Covenant is often referred to as The Kingdom of Priests, A Holy Nation and My Possession among the Nations Covenant.

Christ during His first advent did not make any "Neo"/new covenants with His disciples, but rather Christ refreshed the Ancient Covenant from the time of Adam which gives all who abide in the refurbished covenant, Salvation for all who believe.

In Matt. 13:52 Christ made a reference to this ancient Salvation Covenant from the Time of Adam in which Christ's sacrifice on the cross altered the process by which our salvation will be gained through our belief in Him.

Oh well, sadly a desire for something new will not get us our salvation as the only difference is how our sins are redeemed by God. This is not gained by our terms, but by the terms that God has now had put in place by Christ. The Salvation is still the same as it was back during the time of Adam, however the process by which this Salvation is obtained has been altered and it requires us to repent of our sins and to humble ourselves and accept His Salvation with Grace.

Shalom
Heb 8:8 For, when Hashem finds fault with them, he says, "HINEI YAMIM BA'IM, NE'UM HASHEM, VKHARATI ES BEIS YISRAEL V’ES BEIS YEHUDAH BRIT CHADASHA"("Behold, days are coming, says Hashem, when I will establish with the Beis Yisroel and with the Beis Yehudah a Brit Chadasha”).
OJB
No "refreshed" here...

Jer 31:31 (30) Hinei, the days come, saith Hashem, that I will cut a Brit Chadasha with Bais Yisroel, and with Bais Yehudah;
OJB

No "refreshed" here either...vecharat chadaShah


H2319. chadash
חָדָשׁ adjective new (on formation see LgBN 48) — ׳ח absolute Exo_1:8 Exo_1:19t.; feminine חֲדָשָׁה Lev_23:16 Lev_23:19t.; plural חֲדָשִׁים Deu_32:17 Deu_32:10t.; feminine חֲדָשׁוֺת Isa_42:9; Isa_48:6; — new, usually
a. attrib. Exo_1:8 (E) a new king; so of house Deu_20:5; Deuteronomy 20:22, wife Deu_24:5, cords Jdg_15:13; Jdg_16:11-12, cart 1Sa_6:7; 2Sa_6:3 (twice in verse) (but strike out in vb, compare We Dr) = 1Ch_13:7, garment 1Ki_11:29-30, vessel 2Ki_2:20, wine-skins Jos_9:13 (JE) Job_32:19, threshing instrument Isaiah 4:15; meal-offering Lev_23:16 (H) Num_28:26 (P); especially (poetry) ח ׳שִׁיר a new song (of praise) Psa_33:3; Psa_40:4; Psa_96:1; Psa_98:1; Psa_144:9; Psa_149:1; Isa_42:10; ח ׳בְּרִית Jer_31:31; חדשׁה וארץ חדשׁים שָׁמַיִם Isa_65:17; compare Isa_66:22; ח ׳שֵׁם Isa_62:2; ח ׳רוּחַ a new spirit Eze_11:19; Eze_18:31; Eze_36:26, + ח ׳לֵב Eze_18:31; Eze_36:26; שַׁעַריֿ ׳מֶּתַח ׳הֶח Jer_26:10 new gate of (house of) ׳י, compare Jer_36:10 (see Gf Jer_20:2); also הַח ׳הֶחָצֵר2Ch_20:5 the new court (see Be Öttli); חדשׁים אלהים Jdg_5:8 new gods? judges? text probably corrupt, compare NöZMG 1888, 477, MüllKönigsb. Stud. i., GACookeDeb. 34 ff. and conjectures by BuRS, 103, RS in BlaJudges; in General כָּלחֿ ׳אֵין Ecc_1:9 there is nothing new; with no substantive expressed חֲדָשָׁה חָגוּר 2Sa_21:16 girt with a new (sword: but text perhaps corrupt, compare We Klo Dr), of (food-) products of earth (opposed to יָשָׁן) Lev_26:10 (H) Cant 7:14; חֲדָשִׁים Deu_32:17 new ones (i.e. gods; || בָּאוּ מִקָּרֹב); in General feminine חֲדָשָׁה a new thing Isa_43:19; Jer_31:22, feminine plural Isa_42:9 (opposed to הָרִאשֹׁנוֺת), Isa_48:6.
b. very rarely predicate: of ׳יs compassions לַבְּקָרִם חדשׁים Lam_3:23 they are new every morning; ח ׳כְּבוֺדִי עִמָּדִי Job_29:20 my glory shall be fresh with me; ח זֶה ׳רְאֵה הוּא Ecc_1:10 see, this is new!
חֲדַ֑ת adjective new (ᵑ7 Syriac; Biblical Hebrew חדשׁ); — ׳ח Ezr_6:4.
חוד (√ of following; חוּדִיתָא חוּד, ᵑ7, riddle, see Biblical Hebrew and K§ 57 b) a)).

Interestingly, in the AHLB it have...


Strongs #2319: AHLB#: 2151 (N)

2151) Sdh% (Sdh% HhDSh) ac: Renew co: New moon ab: New: The first crescent of the moon as the renewal of the moon, the first day of the month. [from: dh - restoration]
V) Sdh% (Sdh% Hh-DSh) - Renew: To make something like new through repair, restoration, or replacement. [freq. 10] (vf: Hitpael, Piel) |kjv: renew, repair| {str: 2318}
Nm) Sdh% (Sdh% Hh-DSh) - New: Something that is new, renewed, restored or repaired. [freq. 54] |kjv: new, fresh| {str: 2319, 2323}
gm) Sdfh% (Sdfh% HhW-DSh) - New moon: The first crescent of the moon as the renewal of the moon, the first day of the month. [freq. 276] |kjv: month, new moon, monthly| {str: 2320}

I'll stick to the good ol' tried and tested KJV. since we are not talking about a "refreshed" B'rit but a brand new Chadashah

J.
 

Johann

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Sadly, to many people do not look at the Greek text to see if the English context is the same of the English context.

Now when I say "new" in English, there are two possible ways of understanding this word: -

The object is brand new with respect to age, i.e. if it was a car, it has just come of the assembly line into your possession.
The object is new with respect to when the object was acquired, i.e. if it is a car, I have purchased a preloved car to replace the one I have traded in such that I can describe the car as being "my new car."

Now if I was using the Greek language to say "new with respect to age" I would use the Greek word "Neo." G:3501.

Now in the quoted verse, Heb.8:8 the Greek word translated as "new" in our English Translations is the Greek word, " καινήν, kainēn" and the greek Root this Greek word is derived from is: - "καινός kainos G:2537" and its meaning is given as :- "Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while neos is properly so with respect to age -- new" such that we can understand that the Heb. 8:8 text is actually saying: -

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a refreshed covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah."

Now if we consider the reference to Jer. 31:31, we will read that the covenant will be make like new again with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, not identically like the covenant that God made with Israel at Mt Sinai which they rebelled against, but this time, the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

The Mt Sinai Covenant is often referred to as The Kingdom of Priests, A Holy Nation and My Possession among the Nations Covenant.

Christ during His first advent did not make any "Neo"/new covenants with His disciples, but rather Christ refreshed the Ancient Covenant from the time of Adam which gives all who abide in the refurbished covenant, Salvation for all who believe.

In Matt. 13:52 Christ made a reference to this ancient Salvation Covenant from the Time of Adam in which Christ's sacrifice on the cross altered the process by which our salvation will be gained through our belief in Him.

Oh well, sadly a desire for something new will not get us our salvation as the only difference is how our sins are redeemed by God. This is not gained by our terms, but by the terms that God has now had put in place by Christ. The Salvation is still the same as it was back during the time of Adam, however the process by which this Salvation is obtained has been altered and it requires us to repent of our sins and to humble ourselves and accept His Salvation with Grace.

Shalom

συντελεσω

A new covenant (diathēkēn kainēn). In Heb_12:24 we have diathēkēs neas, but kainēs in 1Co_11:25. Kainos is fresh, on new lines as opposed to the old (palaios) as in 2Co_3:6, 2Co_3:14; neos is young or not yet old.....

J.
 

Jay Ross

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2537 [e]
kainēn
καινήν ,
new
Adj-AFS

"new, which as recently made is superior to what it succeeds: διαθήκη, Matthew 26:28 (T WH omit καινά); Mark 14:24 R L; Luke 22:20 (WH reject the passage); 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 8:8"

"Refresh" does not appear in the definitions of 2537 [e].

Yes I would agree with you if I was referencing the Bible Hub web site and the first meaning given at the top of the page, but the Strong definition given at the bottom of the left column under the heading "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance" mentions "freshness.

I know that I only changed one word in the Jer. 31:31 verse where i wrote: -

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a refreshed covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah."​

I could have kept to the Hebrew order of words and written: -

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will remake with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah a covenant like new."
As we read further in this passage of Scripture, we learn that the covenant that the lord will remake with the Hour of Israel and Judah is basically the same covenant that God made with the nation of Israel at Mt. Sinai which they rejected within 40 days after agreeing to abide with the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the Nations Covenant with some minor tweaks to the renewed covenanted.

Contextually within this passage, what you are suggesting does not fit the thrust of what God is promising to do.

Shalom
 
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Ronald Nolette

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we are to admonish each other in love, this is a deep subject.
Let us be careful in continually slinging mud.
Personally, I don't particularly like the word "Church" too much of a negative connotation.
Please Ronald.
J.

Most of my comments are not designed to sling mud as you say, but to reveal problems in the body of
christ. Most believers rely more on commentaries of the word instead of the word itself as was written by the authors.
 

Johann

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Most of my comments are not designed to sling mud as you say, but to reveal problems in the body of
christ. Most believers rely more on commentaries of the word instead of the word itself as was written by the authors.
Commentaries, YouTube and Google aside, you have failed to show me, in scripture, that Jeremiah 31 is yet to be fulfilled or cast it into the future...are you a Preterist?
J.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Read your New Testament and you will find out. It is not rocket science. The Church is true believing Israel. They are the real circumcision. They got what was predicted here and are now wonderfully redeemed.

Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states, For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.”


Paul explains in Romans 9:8: “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”


Romans 10:12 states: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”


I Corinthians 7:17 declares, Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"


Colossians 3:11 declares, there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."


Galatians 3:28 says, There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:2 declares, if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."


Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."


Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”


Whilst there is a difference between Nigerians and Irish in the natural, in Christ there is no difference spiritually. Nationality carries to favors today. There is indeed neither Jew nor Greek.

Paul outlined the unscrupulous pressure that was directed towards his converted Gentile co-worker Titus, by some of the early misguided Judaizers, in Galatians 2:2-5, saying, “Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.”


And I agree with all those verses 100%. but your conclusion is what is wrong. Not one verse says there that the church is Israel.

the church is the church and Israel is Israel! The church is a parentheses in gods covenant relationship with Israel for the calling out of the gentiles, a people for His name.

If the church is Israel then you have some real problems. from romans 11:

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

so the elect in the church have received it, but the rest of the church is blinded?

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Paul speaks of the enormous blessing when Israel will be saved as a nation!

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul warns gentiles from being arrogant because God will save all Israel, as prophesied. Why? Because the gifts and callings of God are without repentance!!!!!

Sorry but you are wrong!

In the body of Christ (from Pentecost to the rapture) there is no differences. we are the bride of Christ!

Israel is the wife of Jehovah, now divorced but will be rewed to the Father in the future.

If his sons reject my law and disobey my regulations, if they break my rules and do not keep my commandments, I will punish their rebellion by beating them with a club, their sin by inflicting them with bruises. But I will not remove my loyal love from him, nor be unfaithful to my promise. (Ps 89:29-33)

“Thus says the Lord YAHWEH: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”‘ (Ezek 37:19)

“I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know Yahweh. (Hos 2:19-20)

god is not done with Israel as a nation.

He will save the entire nation in the last days of the tribulation.
 

Johann

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“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a refreshed covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah."
Well, I suppose if I was Jewish, I could also say, it is not what Rabbi so and so is saying, but what says the D'var ELOHEINU, and then promptly "insert" a word to suit my religion.
Neatly done, albeit, not contextually true.
J.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You claim that Christ's New Covenant does not yet exist.

Christ declared 2,000 years ago that His Blood was the Blood of His New Covenant. (Matthew 26:28)

Explain Scripturally and semantically how Christ could declare that His Blood was the Blood of His New Covenant...

If His New Covenant did not exist.


Well I did not say the covenant does not exist. What I said is that the covenant has not yet gone into effect. big difference.

Jesus blood is not the cvovenant, but the price paid to insure the covenant will go into effect at the proper time.

Once again I ask you the following: If the New covenant is now in effect, then please show when the provisions of the covenant went into force>

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Also explain why you insist on adding gentiles to the covenant when the plain clear and unambiguous language says the covenant is with all Israel and Judah?
 

Ronald Nolette

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The vast bulk of Israelites since the cross (as Gentiles) have rejected Christ’s one all-sufficient sacrifice for sin and are therefore bound for a Christless hell and eternal punishment. Christ (the Prince of Peace and the source of all mercy) gave no spiritual hope for the unregenerate man regardless of how distinguished his nationality or honourable his upbringing. Anyway, no one in Scripture outside of the new-born child of God is presented as being qualified to enjoy the “peace” and “mercy” of God. Every Jew and Gentile that is not born again is on the broad-road to hell. Jesus made it clear in John 3:3, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Yes and that is biblical. Paul said that in every generation a remnant is righteous. Paul also said that there is a veil placed over their eyes for now, and that that blindness in part will last only until the pleroma (full number) of gentiles be come in. then all Israel will be saved according to teh terms of teh new covenant in Jerewmiah 31.

Paul is telling us here in this passage in very clear terms that one’s Jewishness or Gentileness means absolutely nothing today “in Christ Jesus.” We are all equally loved by God and all equally the children of Abraham by faith. Paul actually rebukes those that try to establish distinct groupings within the body of Christ (namely Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians). Paul repeatedly instructs the New Testament believer that there should be no racial, cultural or economic division within the body. 1 Corinthians 12:25 says: That there should be no schism in the body.”

And I agree 100% with the verse! However this speaks only for the body of Christ (the bride of Christ) and not for Isreal and the promises God will fuflfill to Israel in the future.


The “as many as walk according to this rule” are plainly all believers. If it does refer to all believers then the Futurist argument falls apart in regard to 2 distinct groups here.

God’s people are seen to exclusively be those who submit to this particular rule. The “many” here is not simply Gentiles as Dispies would argue but Jews and Gentiles that have become new creatures in Christ. This non-racial rule, which renders circumcision and uncircumcision of non-avail, and the new creature spiritual experience as everything, is the whole thrust of the teaching. If someone isn’t found under ‘the born again banner’ then they are not God’s. These are the only people that enter heaven (John 3). So if there is another entity outside of the non-racial “many as walk according to this rule” (the new creature rule) it is spurious, regardless of whether it is Israeli or not.

You seem to forget teh context of why Paul wrote this letter, which is critical to understanding and learning. Paul is showing the distinction between natural and spiritual Israel(the Israel of God)

Teh "as many as walk..." is to gentile believers. Why? Because Paul showed by adding the connective "kai" (and) which in every language shows another person, place or thing is being discussed. INI Galatians the second is a group of people-the Israel of god, which are not part of the as many as walk crowd. Paul is teaching the gentiles in Galatia who are believers that there are two types of Jew or Israeli in the world, natural Israel, which are the ones who were troubling Israel and the Israel of God, fellow believers in messiah who are Jewish.

Paul said in Christ there is no distinctions, but Paul never ended showing natural distinctions. Many times He spoke of Jew, Gentile and the church of god!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Do you believe that the House of Israel and the House of Judah have rejoined?
If so; it is you who has the false ideas. There are many proofs that they have not yet been made as one. Ezekiel 37:15-28, is plainly unfulfilled.

Yes' righteous Jews do belong to the Israel of God, but they comprise only a remnant of the House of Israel. The main body are the Christian people; from every tribe, race, nation and language. Who are mainly actual descendants of Jacob, the people Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24


Well before making an assumption before I answered your question, you should have kept silent and let me answer. No, Israel and Judah is not rejoined yet. That is still a future event to happen either before the trib, or during the trib.

The main body of the body of Christ are gentiles. Teh Jews are the faithful remanat Paul continually spoke of.

But once again you have a whole chunk of believers blinded if you demand Israel is the church now:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 9-11 is all about speaking of the jew as a people.

I have given you plenty of OT verses showing God is not doen with Israel as an entire nation, but you just simply reinterpret Gods Word to suit your agenda! You promote your reinterpreted version of Gods Word and not Gods Word.
 

Johann

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Well I did not say the covenant does not exist. What I said is that the covenant has not yet gone into effect. big difference.

Jesus blood is not the cvovenant, but the price paid to insure the covenant will go into effect at the proper time.

Once again I ask you the following: If the New covenant is now in effect, then please show when the provisions of the covenant went into force>

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Also explain why you insist on adding gentiles to the covenant when the plain clear and unambiguous language says the covenant is with all Israel and Judah?
Listen to a real scholar.


J.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Commentaries, YouTube and Google aside, you have failed to show me, in scripture, that Jeremiah 31 is yet to be fulfilled or cast it into the future...are you a Preterist?
J.

Far from beig a preterist. I am what is called a pre-trib, premil, dispensationalist which is the furhtewr end of the spectrum from a preterist.

How can I show you from Scripture something that has not happened yet? Simply read the covenant and then see if the provisions god said WILL happen have happened. If not then they are still future!
 

WPM

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And I agree with all those verses 100%. but your conclusion is what is wrong. Not one verse says there that the church is Israel.

the church is the church and Israel is Israel! The church is a parentheses in gods covenant relationship with Israel for the calling out of the gentiles, a people for His name.

If the church is Israel then you have some real problems. from romans 11:

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

so the elect in the church have received it, but the rest of the church is blinded?

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Paul speaks of the enormous blessing when Israel will be saved as a nation!

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul warns gentiles from being arrogant because God will save all Israel, as prophesied. Why? Because the gifts and callings of God are without repentance!!!!!

Sorry but you are wrong!

In the body of Christ (from Pentecost to the rapture) there is no differences. we are the bride of Christ!

Israel is the wife of Jehovah, now divorced but will be rewed to the Father in the future.

If his sons reject my law and disobey my regulations, if they break my rules and do not keep my commandments, I will punish their rebellion by beating them with a club, their sin by inflicting them with bruises. But I will not remove my loyal love from him, nor be unfaithful to my promise. (Ps 89:29-33)

“Thus says the Lord YAHWEH: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”‘ (Ezek 37:19)

“I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know Yahweh. (Hos 2:19-20)

god is not done with Israel as a nation.

He will save the entire nation in the last days of the tribulation.

There is natural Israel and spiritual Israel in Scripture. One of the most prevalent symbols employed in the New Testament to describe the union between God’s people and Christ is the olive tree. Of course, this would have been a real natural tree that most Israelites were familiar with. It was therefore used as an effective illustration to express the oneness of God’s people.

Paul gives us some interesting thoughts on it in Romans 11:17-24, speaking to the Roman Christians (who were overwhelmingly Gentiles): thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them, partakest of the root and fatness [or oiliness] of the olive tree. Boast not against the branches (Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root [Jesus], but the root [Jesus] thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches [Israel] were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

Paul uses the image of “the olive tree” in Romans 11 to show that Gentiles have become part of true Israel. His olive tree analogy is deliberate. He takes this imagery from the prophets who likened Israel to an olive tree in Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10 and 14:6-7.

Jews and Gentiles today are grafted into this Israeli tree by faith in Christ – who is ultimately true Israel. The New Testament Church today being one with Christ is therefore also true Israel. They have been integrated into believing Israel and have been enjoined to all the elect of the Old Testament era. As a prince they have indeed spiritual power with God and with men, and have prevailed. So, God does not have a separate plan for national Israel outside of the Church. Every Jew and Gentile who trusts in the Lord Jesus are God’s elect or faithful Israel

Just like the Gentiles who came to faith in Israel’s God in the Old Testament sealed that commitment through physical circumcision, which in turn qualified them to be considered natural Israelis, so, in the New Testament those who come to faith in Israel’s God do so through spiritual circumcision, which allows them to experience all the spiritual benefits and blessings that attend being faithful Israel.

We all know that the natural branches of any tree are obviously synonymous with the natural tree itself. For example: an oak tree is not going to have birch branches. Oak trees have oak branches. Birch trees have birch branches. The natural branches of an olive tree can only be olive branches. Scripture depicts the good olive tree as an Israeli tree. Again, speaking about Israelites, he talks about “the natural branches” being “graffed into their own olive tree” (Romans 11:24).

The New Testament depicts the New Testament Church as a continuation of faithful Israel. The Greek word interpreted “partakest” here is sugkoinonos which literally means co-participant. The Gentile believer is a co-participant with the Jewish believer in this spiritual organism. This couldn’t be any more inclusive. A people that were once alien to the “citizenship of Israel” have now been “graffed in among them” and (significantly) “with them partakest of the root and fatness [or oiliness] of the olive tree” (Romans 11:17).

We learn here:

The root is holy (v16)
The root has fatness (v17)
The root supports us (v18)

No one other than Jesus Christ can fulfill these requirements. He is the source of strength to God’s elect of all nations who belong to this redeemed Israeli tree.

He is holy.
He sustains His people.
He supports us.
 
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WPM

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And I agree with all those verses 100%. but your conclusion is what is wrong. Not one verse says there that the church is Israel.

the church is the church and Israel is Israel! The church is a parentheses in gods covenant relationship with Israel for the calling out of the gentiles, a people for His name.

If the church is Israel then you have some real problems. from romans 11:

Paul makes 3 overriding points in Romans 9–11:

· He establishes the great and lofty truth of divine election.
· He determines who true Israel is.
· He then shows how the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel.

But the central (and overriding) theme that permeates Paul’s teaching in Romans 9–11 is his remnant theology. It is in these chapters that the teaching reaches its apex in regard to content and development. Paul brings much meat to the table and highlights the difference between national Israel and true remnant elect Israel. Paul also references various Old Testament Scriptures to show the continuity of the faithful remnant from the old economy to the new. He then shows on what grounds the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how the New Testament congregation of God of all nations constitutes the covenant remnant of God today. He reveals how this elect company has grown to be a significant force on this earth. Paul lays all this out in a very structured, systematic and unambiguous way in these chapters.

Saying all this, the principal element that joins the old and the new, Jew and Gentile, together is shown to be Jesus Christ. He overlaps both covenants, He brings a continuity in salvation and is at the core of meeting man’s greatest need in any day. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows how one’s response to Christ will ultimately determine one’s eternal destiny. Accept Him, and experience eternal life. Reject Him, and experience eternal damnation. Participation in God’s elect remnant therefore is determined by our relationship with Jesus – man’s redeemer and Israel’s only Messiah. Paul presents Christ as the epicenter of man’s favor with God. He supports his teaching with the analogy of a figurative stone which the elect embrace but the religious balk at. He refers back to the Old Testament to Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 8:14 to support his thesis.

Romans 9:30-33 records: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”


Paul shows how national religious Israel missed the boat because they rejected Christ (“they stumbled at that stumblingstone”). Also, they were bound to a religious aberration that revolved around keeping the law. The fact is: none of them could keep it. They were totally deceived if they thought they could. They were not a believing people which is why they were cut out of the good Israeli olive tree. On the other hand, Paul shows natural Gentiles (heathens) embracing that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Albert Barnes explains: “This rock, designed as a corner stone to the church, became, by the wickedness of the Jews, the block over which they fall into ruin.”

Through Calvary, the Gentiles have been brought into a new realm, a new spiritual status, and therefore enjoy a new citizenship, with new sanctified benefits. Gentile believers united with Jewish believers on an equal basis, inhabiting God’s Zion. Christ taught this same truth (that Paul shares in Romans 9:30-33) in Matthew 21:42-44 – relating various messianic prophecies to Himself (only adding Isaiah 28:16 to the mix). By doing this, Christ reveals the literal fulfilment of these figurative Old Testament prophecies in our day. In Matthew 21:44, Jesus laid it out as straight and simple as it could honestly be said: “whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” Nothing has changed today!


Premils argue that Romans 9–11 is all about ethnic Israel. But it clearly isn’t! They fail to see that it is primarily focused on Christ and His spiritual elect (irrespective of race). They miss how the apostle defines who true Israel is and demonstrates how believing Gentiles would be integrated into faithful Israel on the grounds of saving faith. This is seen in the detailed symbolism in these chapters of the good olive tree. The whole analogy is central to his reasoning. He focuses on national Israel because there was so much confusion in the fledgling Church as to ethnic Israel’s place (or not) in the plan of God, with the introduction of the new covenant. Paul addresses this in great detail to give a proper perspective. But natural Israel is an extra in the main play, both in this narrative and in repeated New Testament instruction.

In the light of the introduction of the new covenant, and within a New Testament context, Paul takes time to examine the whole dynamic between national Israel and God’s righteous remnant. Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”


This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Let us be absolutely assured: Paul is definitely not opposing himself, neither is the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to pen this, confused. He is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:25-29, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.
 

WPM

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Yes and that is biblical. Paul said that in every generation a remnant is righteous. Paul also said that there is a veil placed over their eyes for now, and that that blindness in part will last only until the pleroma (full number) of gentiles be come in. then all Israel will be saved according to teh terms of teh new covenant in Jerewmiah 31.



And I agree 100% with the verse! However this speaks only for the body of Christ (the bride of Christ) and not for Isreal and the promises God will fuflfill to Israel in the future.




You seem to forget teh context of why Paul wrote this letter, which is critical to understanding and learning. Paul is showing the distinction between natural and spiritual Israel(the Israel of God)

Teh "as many as walk..." is to gentile believers. Why? Because Paul showed by adding the connective "kai" (and) which in every language shows another person, place or thing is being discussed. INI Galatians the second is a group of people-the Israel of god, which are not part of the as many as walk crowd. Paul is teaching the gentiles in Galatia who are believers that there are two types of Jew or Israeli in the world, natural Israel, which are the ones who were troubling Israel and the Israel of God, fellow believers in messiah who are Jewish.

Paul said in Christ there is no distinctions, but Paul never ended showing natural distinctions. Many times He spoke of Jew, Gentile and the church of god!

Galatians 6:15-16 states, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on [Gr. epi] them, and mercy, even on [Gr. kai epi] the Israel of God.”

You attempt to create two peoples of God in this reading, despite the fact that Paul’s whole import in this reading is that there is only one harmonious people of God. Dispensationalists make much of the words “and upon” (kai epi) and present this as proof that there is a distinction among God’s people. However, this flimsy argument is quickly nullified by (1) looking at the whole trust of Paul’s argument, (2) taking a closer look at the original Greek and (3) exploring similar usages of the Greek phrase in Scripture.

First of all, the Greek language scholar will know: kai has both a copulative and a cumulative force. The Greek word kai can be translated “and” or “even.”

Copulative refers to the joining together of coordinate words or word groups and expressing addition of their meanings. Cumulative refers to a snowballing effect. It means increasing by successive additions. It is formed by the addition of new material of the same kind. The best way to illustrate this is that the word can be equally translated as “and” or “even.”

For example, in Luke 9:23 Jesus said: “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and [Gr. kai] take up his cross daily, and follow me.” According to plain and straightforward contextual reading of this verse, and an examination of the original Greek, Jesus is speaking about the same thing. We are looking at one behavior, not two. To argue otherwise is to totally negate the meaning of the text.

This Greek coupling of kai epi in Galatians 6:16 is found together in a couple of other places in the New Testament. It is always helpful to compare similar or identical usages elsewhere in Scripture. This gives us a greater sense of meaning. Significantly, in these cases rather than suggesting a distinction in factions they actually show an enlargement of detail relating to the exact same subject matter. The coupling together of these words simply adds greater depth or more information to what has already been outlined. In each NT case, it is used in a cumulative sense. The second noun basically adds emphasis or further data to the first. It is therefore acceptable to interpret the same as “even on.”

An example of this is found in Christ’s words in Matthew 21:5, which similarly reads, “Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon [Gr. epi] an ass, and [Gr. kai epi] a colt the foal of an ass.”

The same idea is presented here (surrounded by the exact same key Greek words) as Galatians 6:16: epi ... kai epi (“on ... even on”). No one would be as naïve as to argue that the “ass” and the “colt” mentioned above are two different beasts. No, it is obvious that this is speaking of the one same animal. It literally reads, “on an ass, even on a colt the foal of an ass.” The “even on” simply adds further detail upon the description already given on the matter. In this case, not only is it an ass, but it is “a colt the foal of an ass.” This verse assists us in our understanding of Galatians 6:16, and illustrates the real import of this much-debated text.

The same formation of Greek words is found in the same sequence, in order to present the same idea in Revelation 14:6, which reads, “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto [Gr. epi] them that dwell on the earth, and [Gr. kai epi] to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

No sensible Bible student would suggest that that there are two different companies in view in this reading. Even though the word kai is translated “and” (like Galatians 6:16) in the KJV, it doesn’t negate the fact that those that are said to “dwell on the earth” are in fact those of “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

The Greek words kai epi are simply used here to broaden the information already given about the singular subject in view. They are not therefore two distinct peoples, they are the same. We see the exact same pattern as we have in Matthew 21:5: “unto ... even on” (epi ... kai epi). This passage simply states, “unto them that dwell on the earth, even on every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

Galatians 6:16 therefore agrees with these other two passages. The construction of the passage in the original Greek leads us to the obvious conclusion that we are looking at one unitary people. It is important we acknowledge the sequence of the words – “on ... even on” (or epi ... kai epi). Just like Matthew 21:5 and Revelation 14:6, the 2 mentions connect together and refer to the same subject matter. There can be no doubt: the phrase “the Israel of God” is carefully and deliberately related to all those who have experienced the new birth (who are the focus of this passage). This serves to add description to the regenerate.
 
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