The Age of God’s Grace

[Episkopos]

I have said that the children of God "have" overcome the flesh by their belief, faith, trust and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross.

Yes, we all sin in the flesh because it is sinful.

What you stated about what I believe is a lie and according to the scriptures it is bearing false witness and is sin. Conclusion, you are just as much a sinner as anyone else.

Just as the Pharisees believed themselves sinless when they murdered Jesus, you think you are sinless when you use your lie against me. It seems that you think you can lie and still be sinless.

God is the judge between us.

How do we have victory over the flesh through Christ if we continue to sin? A victory is a triumph OVER something.

Victory is not achieved through stating a bible verse without the reality being made manifest to the world around us!

Maybe you mean...we WILL have victory over the flesh once we die???

Your position does not regard does not address the actual power of Christ to deliver men from sin. What you are espousing is the victory of the penalty for sins...that is not what the bible is stating.

Yes we have been forgiven past sins and may be forgiven sins in the future....but this is not a victory over sin but rather Jesus paying the price for our sins on the cross.

A disciple is one who just doesn't accept the forgiveness of God but moves into being crucified and raised again to new life IN Christ. THAT is the victory. That we walk in the Spirit in NEWNESS of life; not walking in our former corrupt minds and hearts, but being surrounded by His keeping power of grace, we walk as Jesus walked. This is the commandment of Christ that we follow Him and obey Him through His life in us. Those who do this truly overcome, sin, the world and the devil. This is the process of salvation from sin and the sanctification so as to be prepared for ruling with Christ in the next age.

 

[Episkopos]

To Richard: A victory in Christ over sin means it no longer has power over us.

If we have victory over smoking let's say...does that just mean we can smoke and not get cancer or otherwise harm our bodies?

Do you mean we have victory over the EFFECTS of sin but not the sin itself???

Please define exactly what you mean by victory!

 

[jiggyfly]

How do we have victory over the flesh through Christ if we continue to sin? A victory is a triumph OVER something.

Victory is not achieved through stating a bible verse without the reality being made manifest to the world around us!

Maybe you mean...we WILL have victory over the flesh once we die???

Your position does not regard does not address the actual power of Christ to deliver men from sin. What you are espousing is the victory of the penalty for sins...that is not what the bible is stating.

Yes we have been forgiven past sins and may be forgiven sins in the future....but this is not a victory over sin but rather Jesus paying the price for our sins on the cross.

A disciple is one who just doesn't accept the forgiveness of God but moves into being crucified and raised again to new life IN Christ. THAT is the victory. That we walk in the Spirit in NEWNESS of life; not walking in our former corrupt minds and hearts, but being surrounded by His keeping power of grace, we walk as Jesus walked. This is the commandment of Christ that we follow Him and obey Him through His life in us. Those who do this truly overcome, sin, the world and the devil. This is the process of salvation from sin and the sanctification so as to be prepared for ruling with Christ in the next age.

Not that I agree or disagree with your post but I wonder how you incorporate what Paul said about dying daily into your paradigm?

 

[RichardBurger]

How do we have victory over the flesh through Christ if we continue to sin? A victory is a triumph OVER something.

******* Because in Christ our sins, all of them, have been paid for on the cross by Jesus. ******

Victory is not achieved through stating a bible verse without the reality being made manifest to the world around us!

******** Our victory over the flesh was accomplished By Jesus on the cross. Every one that believes, has faith in, Jesus' work on the cross HAS overcome his/her sins of the flesh. God has taken care of the sin problem. ************

Maybe you mean...we WILL have victory over the flesh once we die???

******** I mean we, the children of God, already have the victory over our sins of the flesh in that we are no longer condemned by them. Jesus paid for the sins of the children of God. --- It seems, by what you write, that you do not believe this. You seem to think we must pay for them by what we do. ***********

Your position does not regard does not address the actual power of Christ to deliver men from sin. What you are espousing is the victory of the penalty for sins...that is not what the bible is stating

************* Absolutely! The power of the cross is that God can call sinful men/women sinless, when they believe Him, because He has paid for their sins of the flesh on the cross. Therfore sin has no power over them. *****************

Yes we have been forgiven past sins and may be forgiven sins in the future....but this is not a victory over sin but rather Jesus paying the price for our sins on the cross.

************ All of mankind has had their sins of the flesh paid for on the cross But it only applies to those of faith, those that actually believe it. I have found that those who do not believe it are those that preach a person has to become sinless by their efforts to not sin. *****************

A disciple is one who just doesn't accept the forgiveness of God but moves into being crucified and raised again to new life IN Christ. THAT is the victory. That we walk in the Spirit in NEWNESS of life; not walking in our former corrupt minds and hearts, but being surrounded by His keeping power of grace, we walk as Jesus walked. This is the commandment of Christ that we follow Him and obey Him through His life in us. Those who do this truly overcome, sin, the world and the devil. This is the process of salvation from sin and the sanctification so as to be prepared for ruling with Christ in the next age.

*********** What an amazing thought. "A disciple is one who just doesn't accept the forgiveness of God" It seems that you do not know that God is a Spirit and those that worship him must worship Him in Spirit? You seem to be saying that worshipping Him by the works of the flesh is the same as by the spirit. You seem to think that both your sinful flesh and your spirit was reborn? Yes, I think that is where you are coming from and that is why you think your salvation is based on what you do and not on what Jesus has already done. *************

To Richard: A victory in Christ over sin means it no longer has power over us.

********* You are correct, sins of the flesh no longer have power over the children of God, Not because we no longer sin in the flesh but that the penalty for sins of the flesh were paid for on the cross by God (Jesus). ******************

Do you mean we have victory over the EFFECTS of sin but not the sin itself???

***********those who have been placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit already have the victory over their sins in Christ. *************

Please define exactly what you mean by victory!

************I think I just did. *************

 

[Episkopos]

If we look at the 12 Israelite spies that were sent into the promised land to give an account of what was there we see that 10 of the spies did not believe that the God that had parted the seas and fed them in the wilderness was powerful enough to lead them to VICTORY over the giants in the land.
Our sinful nature is like those giants in the land. Very few believe that the works of the flesh can indeed be overcome... Only 2 men that came from Egypt believed it was possible to overcome the giants in the land. The others hated those two...Joshua and Caleb because they were seen as espousing a superior military might. They could only see the fleshly problem...but didn't look to God. This is unbelief of course in the power of God to give them victory. The battle is the Lord's. The account of Joshua represents the victory we have over the land that is our own souls. We are to conquer in His power.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We are likewise called to destroy the works of our own bodies. The sin factory must be destroyed.

Those who sin will die. There is no scheme in heaven or on earth that justifies a continuing in sin AFTER one has been given the means to overcome them through the gift of a new nature in Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

Not that I agree or disagree with your post but I wonder how you incorporate what Paul said about dying daily into your paradigm?

Whatever we grow into through grace we must make up for in a new humility and brokenness before God.

The error of those who have received grace is to become proud. So we must walk in the death of what we may see as something that exalts us above other men. We must practice humility through death. We reckon that we are nothing of ourselves...even if we have just raised the dead. We must never let ourselves become exalted in our own estimation. Our death makes room for HIS LIFE in us. His power (grace) is made whole in our weakness.

But pride comes before a fall.

 

[jiggyfly]

Whatever we grow into through grace we must make up for in a new humility and brokenness before God.

The error of those who have received grace is to become proud. So we must walk in the death of what we may see as something that exalts us above other men. We must practice humility through death. We reckon that we are nothing of ourselves...even if we have just raised the dead. We must never let ourselves become exalted in our own estimation. Our death makes room for HIS LIFE in us. His power (grace) is made whole in our weakness.

But pride comes before a fall.

But what about the "daily" part?

 

[Episkopos]

But what about the "daily" part?

The nature of our calling is a daily one. Each day is like a small lifetime. Like the manna in the wilderness...was only good for THAT day. You couldn't take a spiritual benefit for today and make it count for the next without also having met the requirement of the previous day.

Jesus said..

Mat_6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

So we are judged on a daily basis. We live on a daily basis. We overcome on a daily basis.

The kingdom also expands on a daily basis...

We can never rest on the laurels of yesterday's accomplishments. TODAY is always the day of salvation for us. Each day is a new start.

 

[aspen]

this is all starting to sound pious and 'lofty' - what's the big deal about recharging with God in prayer and committing to love one another everyday?

 

[lawrance]

Your idea about being not being born in sin is not according to scriptures.

So in your opinion everyone else is twisting the scriptures and you and Episkopos are not. Do you have an attitude problem?

Where do you get that from saying that i am saying that anyone is not born a siner, because i do say that all are siners but the fact is we are not totaly corrupt to sin and that's a fact bro. and this must be one of your problems that you can not see.
We are trying to help you see. as i think you are so lost in ignorance of lack of Spirit and so full of so full of religion.
No wonder people killed Jesus back in the day.

 

[jiggyfly]

The nature of our calling is a daily one. Each day is like a small lifetime. Like the manna in the wilderness...was only good for THAT day. You couldn't take a spiritual benefit for today and make it count for the next without also having met the requirement of the previous day.

Jesus said..

Mat_6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

So we are judged on a daily basis. We live on a daily basis. We overcome on a daily basis.

The kingdom also expands on a daily basis...

We can never rest on the laurels of yesterday's accomplishments. TODAY is always the day of salvation for us. Each day is a new start.

So when do you believe one fully overcomes?

Where do you get that from saying that i am saying that anyone is not born a siner, because i do say that all are siners but the fact is we are not totaly corrupt to sin and that's a fact bro. and this must be one of your problems that you can not see.
We are trying to help you see. as i think you are so lost in ignorance of lack of Spirit and so full of so full of religion.
No wonder people killed Jesus back in the day.

So in saying "we are not totally corrupt to sin" are you suggesting that man has some inherit good within himself?

 

[RichardBurger]

Where do you get that from saying that i am saying that anyone is not born a siner, because i do say that all are siners but the fact is we are not totaly corrupt to sin and that's a fact bro. and this must be one of your problems that you can not see.
We are trying to help you see. as i think you are so lost in ignorance of lack of Spirit and so full of so full of religion.
No wonder people killed Jesus back in the day.

Who is the WE? You are on here by yourself just as I am.

Where do you get the idea I have a problem. Is it because I disagree with you? Perhaps you have the problem.

 

[Episkopos]

So when do you believe one fully overcomes?



So in saying "we are not totally corrupt to sin" are you suggesting that man has some inherit good within himself?

We finally overcome when we are able to remain at the level of obedience to Christ that causes us to be able to walk with Him...not being attracted to the world around. So when our love for the Lord grows to the point when we will no longer forsake Him...and without getting proud about it....then we have "arrived" as a mature overcomer.

 

[jiggyfly]

We finally overcome when we are able to remain at the level of obedience to Christ that causes us to be able to walk with Him...not being attracted to the world around. So when our love for the Lord grows to the point when we will no longer forsake Him...and without getting proud about it....then we have "arrived" as a mature overcomer.

Then I'm confused about how you fit in "dying daily" with your paradigm. Once you have "arrived" is the need to die daily vanished?

 

[aspen]

One of the problems with taking all scripture literally is that one misses much of the subtle meaning in the letters in the NT. Paul uses exaggeration; John swings between idealism and realism; even in the gospels, Jesus uses language to shock His listeners and get there attention. Literalists are likely to take these public speaking and literary devices at face value.

"I am called to boast in the Lord!"

"John tells us that we will never sin as Christians!"

"Jesus tells us that we need to hate our parents in order to get to heaven!"

or one of my favorite literal hatchet jobs: "Jesus said that it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to Heaven!" Jesus is taking about camels having to get on their knees to pass through a trader's entrance to the city of Jerusalem - not a literal needle.

 

[lawrance]

So when do you believe one fully overcomes?



So in saying "we are not totally corrupt to sin" are you suggesting that man has some inherit good within himself?

I say that people are not born totally utterly corrupt and if we were there would be no hope of salvation at all regardless it's Jesus that enlightens us read Ephesians look at 2 :10

 

[lawrance]

Who is the WE? You are on here by yourself just as I am.

Where do you get the idea I have a problem. Is it because I disagree with you? Perhaps you have the problem.

The WE is Christians.
I get the impression of some who call them self christian and then run around saying, don't be bothered with anything as someone did it all for you, so just carry on being a moron it's ok. i think people who push that line are the ones who say lord lord and the Lord never knew them because how could they.
And i am of the thinking you are just an religious like the Pharisees etc and i find it hard to see anything to do with you (being in Christ) them idiots read a book but could not come to Christ because they were so wrapped up in nonsense. and i say that in a nice way not to offend you personally but i do think you are off with the pixies.

 

[jiggyfly]

The WE is Christians.
I get the impression of some who call them self christian and then run around saying, don't be bothered with anything as someone did it all for you, so just carry on being a moron it's ok. i think people who push that line are the ones who say lord lord and the Lord never knew them because how could they.
And i am of the thinking you are just an religious like the Pharisees etc and i find it hard to see anything to do with you (being in Christ) them idiots read a book but could not come to Christ because they were so wrapped up in nonsense. and i say that in a nice way not to offend you personally but i do think you are off with the pixies.

Anyone here say those things?

I say that people are not born totally utterly corrupt and if we were there would be no hope of salvation at all regardless it's Jesus that enlightens us read Ephesians look at 2 :10

Why not answer the question instead of just repeating your last post?

 

[RichardBurger]

The WE is Christians.
I get the impression of some who call them self christian and then run around saying, don't be bothered with anything as someone did it all for you, so just carry on being a moron it's ok. i think people who push that line are the ones who say lord lord and the Lord never knew them because how could they.
And i am of the thinking you are just an religious like the Pharisees etc and i find it hard to see anything to do with you (being in Christ) them idiots read a book but could not come to Christ because they were so wrapped up in nonsense. and i say that in a nice way not to offend you personally but i do think you are off with the pixies.

So you think I am not a Christian, right? So you think that you should not wait on God to act, you should just jump out and do what you claim as work for God.

The O.T. is full of events where God told the Jews to BE STILL AND WATCH WHAT I (GOD) WILL DO. At the red sea is just one of them.

But it seems you are a very religious person. - Have you ever looked to see what the word religious means. It means the things man does for the god they think exists.

Ture Christianity is not what man does for God but what God has done for mankind,

 

[Episkopos]

Then I'm confused about how you fit in "dying daily" with your paradigm. Once you have "arrived" is the need to die daily vanished?

The dying daily is the maintenance requirement of staying in the will of God. We are not saved in order to be saved. We are saved in order to walk in the will of God. We are empowered to THAT end and take on the sufferings of Christ in a world that seeks to destroy the work of the kingdom. So as long as we are on this earth...we will both suffer AND rejoice in His presence in and among us.