"The word was a god"?

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You can lead a donkey to water, but ....

I have PROVEN the quotes that you provided for the FALSE reading, "and the Word was a god", to be LIES! You have MISREPRESENTED what these people say!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Eight hours later and I’m still surprised that you think the Geneva Bible is disrespectful of Jesus. I accept it, and acknowledge that you have every right to, but I’ve never come across anyone prior to you who felt that way about it.

I’ve heard various arguments for and against the Geneva Bible but never before that it disrespects Jesus. You’ve added a wrinkle to my life experience, and I thank you for that.

The Geneva Bible: The Bible of the Protestant Reformation

https://www.amazon.com/Geneva-Bible-Protestant-Reformation/dp/1598562126

what a really foolish argument! The Geneva Bible is WRONG here, because the Greek personal pronoun here, "αὐτοῦ", is MASCULINE in gender! Even the JW's get this right, "HIM", https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/john/1/

as usual posting nonsense on here!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Well, to be fair, he thinks he's telling the truth, so he's not really lying, right? I mean, he's surely not telling the truth, but he's not actually lying; we have another word or two for what's actually going on... :)

Grace and peace to you, BGTF.

it is the ONLY way that those who oppose the TRUTH of the Bible, can continue in their LIES, is to keep on LYING and they convince themselves that they are "right"! The TRUTH from the Bible EXPOSES their LIES. I notice that @Aunty Jane, who also is a believer of these LIES, gives a "like" to the LIES of @tigger 2 !

 

[Aunty Jane]

.
Below is the text of Col 1:16-17 quoted verbatim from the Watchtower
Society's New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures ©1969.

"Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens
and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter
whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All
[other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before
all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to
exist."

The word "other" is in brackets. This alert readers that "other" is not in the
Greek manuscript; viz: the Society's translators took the liberty to pencil it
in; which gives the impression that God's son was His first creation; and
thereafter, the Son created everything else.

NOTE: I heard it from a JW that the Society's translators added "other"
because that's what Col 1:16-17 means to say even though it doesn't say so
in writing. In other words; that portion of the Society's Bible is an
interpretation rather than a translation.

Anyway: one day back in 1980, a pair of Watchtower missionaries came to my
door consisting of an experienced worker and a trainee. I immediately began
subjecting the trainee to a line of questioning that homed in on the Society's
rather dishonest habit of embellishing the Bible in order to reinforce its line
of thinking.

I had him read the Society's text of Col 1:16-17 and then pointed out that
the word "other" is in brackets to alert him to the fact that "other" is not in
the Greek manuscript. The experienced worker corroborated my statement.

I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passage sans "other". It
comes out like this:

"By means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth,
the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are
thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been
created through him and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means
of him all things were made to exist."

The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to
discover that Col 1:16-17 reveals something quite different than what he
was led to believe.

Had I pressed the attack; I would have pointed out that the Society is
inconsistent with its use of the word "other" by failing to pencil it into John
1:3 in order to make it read like this:

"All [other] things came into existence through him, and apart from him not
even one [other] thing came into existence."

FYI: The 1984 revised edition of the New World Translation omits brackets
around the word "other" in Col 1:16-17 so as to make it appear that word
is legitimate.
_

You really don't know much about JW's do you? The fact that you have to go so far back to pick faults makes me smile....as does your description of your encounter with the "WT missionaries". I hope you realize that our missionaries are mostly sent overseas.....and that all of Jehovah's Witnesses are preachers in their local areas. We all train for the ministry at our Kingdom Halls....even our children.
Jesus set the pattern by teaching his disciples, and then he sent them out to preach in nearby towns and villages. (Matthew 10:11-15)
As his final instructions, Jesus said...."Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
I don't know of any churches that go out to the people to preach the good news of the Kingdom to them, in every nation on earth as Jesus instructed......do you? Jesus said that he would back this work.....so why are the churches missing in action? This was not a recommendation to do this important work only if you felt like it...it was a command.

We are progressive in our understanding of scripture, not stagnant like Christendom.
We have revised our NWT several times and each time it improves as we get a clearer understanding of the original word meanings and how they fit in with the rest of scripture. Most people have no idea how inaccurate their English translations really are.

We spent literally decades examining the doctrines of Christendom and comparing various popular translations so as to dig deeper into God's word and refine our understanding about many things. It was Daniel who mentioned that a "cleansing, purifying and refining" would take place among God's worshippers in "the time of the end" (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) These would be granted insight and understanding but the wicked would understand nothing and carry on in their sullied condition.

Quoting 40 -50 year old publications is like quoting old textbooks that have since been updated and revised.....so I have no idea how these things you post are supposed to be "gotcha" moments. They are all water under the bridge to us. We are always learning and adding to our knowledge base. 'The light on our path keeps getting brighter'....(Proverbs 4:18)

Concerning the word "other", I again have no idea how that is a big issue. If Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) then logically all "other" things must have been created after he was. It was "through" him that all "other" things came into existence.....it belongs, and even if you leave it out, it does not alter the scripture.
Revelation 3:14 backs up what Paul said.....where Jesus himself says he is "the beginning of God's creation".
If he is "the beginning"...then all "other" things must come after him....or "all things" must come after him.....you see, it alters nothing.

 

[Windmill Charge]

The label "Son of God" doesn't necessarily indicate Jesus is divine.

I don't know about you but in my experience Women give birth to human babies, dog give birth to puppies etc etc so it follows if someone is discribed as the Son of God that they are decended from God and are God.
This becomes even more significant when the person is not a king subjected to exstragavent praise and titles.

 

[Aunty Jane]

"And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:16-18)

And what were the Jews trying to do? Blasphemy carried the death penalty in Judaism, so it was an excuse to have him falsely accused and executed....except that Pilate found no justification to do so. The Jews then threatened Pilate himself and his political position by saying that they would report him to Caesar for treason. Rather than argue with this raging mob, he gave in to their threats and washed his hands of Jesus' innocent blood, telling the Jews that they had to see to it. He had Jesus flogged for good measure.

Jesus never once made himself equal to his God....in fact the account in John 10:31-36 confirms that Jesus never said that he was God.

"The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus replied to them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law: ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be nullified), 36 are you saying of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" (NASB)

Who did Jesus say he was??? Not God. It was the Pharisees who falsely accused him of that....their intentions were wicked.

The Jews unlike some, are very clear on their understanding of what Jesus is saying, that He is EQUAL WITH GOD THE FATHER.

ἴσον, is of absoulte essential unity, as much as GOD as the Father is GOD

Now prove Jesus wrong!

I don't have to "prove Jesus wrong" because he never once said he was God. I believe that @tigger 2 has proved you wrong by providing you with solid scriptural research. I see that you find it unsettling and if I agree with him, you feel threatened by that as well.....why?

If what you believe is true, then please provide a direct quote from either the Father or his son stating that they are equal "gods" in a trinity with the holy spirit. If that is true then there should be a clear and unambiguous statement confirming it.

You claim to know scripture, but I think you only know what has been fed to you.

Address the other points that were raised in post #294......and lets see how you deal with them.

All we have heard repeatedly is the tired old argument....and mumbling about people telling lies. What if the lies are yours but it has been sold to you as gospel truth? Unthinkable...? You think the devil cannot dress up lies to look like truth?

When people run out of argument, they attack.....look at what you are saying and be ashamed of your accusations. No one is lying by stating what they believe.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And what were the Jews trying to do? Blasphemy carried the death penalty in Judaism, so it was an excuse to have him falsely accused and executed....except that Pilate found no justification to do so. The Jews then threatened Pilate himself and his political position by saying that they would report him to Caesar for treason. Rather than argue with this raging mob, he gave in to their threats and washed his hands of Jesus' innocent blood, telling the Jews that they had to see to it. He had Jesus flogged for good measure.

Jesus never once made himself equal to his God....in fact the account in John 10:31-36 confirms that Jesus never said that he was God.

"The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus replied to them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law: ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be nullified), 36 are you saying of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" (NASB)

Who did Jesus say he was??? Not God. It was the Pharisees who falsely accused him of that....their intentions were wicked.


I don't have to "prove Jesus wrong" because he never once said he was God. I believe that @tigger 2 has proved you wrong by providing you with solid scriptural research. I see that you find it unsettling and if I agree with him, you feel threatened by that as well.....why?

If what you believe is true, then please provide a direct quote from either the Father or his son stating that they are equal "gods" in a trinity with the holy spirit. If that is true then there should be a clear and unambiguous statement confirming it.

You claim to know scripture, but I think you only know what has been fed to you.

Address the other points that were raised in post #294......and lets see how you deal with them.

All we have heard repeatedly is the tired old argument....and mumbling about people telling lies. What if the lies are yours but it has been sold to you as gospel truth? Unthinkable...? You think the devil cannot dress up lies to look like truth?

When people run out of argument, they attack.....look at what you are saying and be ashamed of your accusations. No one is lying by stating what they believe.

What do you think that Jesus means when He says that "I and the Father We are one"? John 10:30

In verse 28 Jesus says, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand"

In verse 29 Jesus says, "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"

In Deuteronomy 32:39 it reads, ", “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.”

And, Isaiah 43:13, , “Also henceforth I am He; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”

It is very clear that Jesus, in verse 30, is speaking of His "essential unity" with the Father, as EQUAL with the Father, in Protection and Power and Authority. Also notice, that Jesus places Himself before the Father, which He would not have done if He were "inferior"

You keep on ignoring that FACT, that in Matthew 11:10, when Jesus quotes from Malachi 3:1, where the Speaker is "Yahweh of Hosts"; Jesus changes the pronoun, so that He is the Speaker in Malachi, and says that He is YHWH. Now try and disprove this!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Okay. Thanks.

If you’re going to take that position with the Geneva Bible then your going to have to take it with all English translations translated from Greek manuscripts prior to 1611 as disrespectful.

Maybe that’s why the Roman Catholic Church fought against English translations of the Bible and put men like Tyndale to death for having done so.

William Tyndale. Disrespectful of Jesus?

I don’t think so.

So God has not watched over the process of preserving the accuracy of His Word and has allowed error to prevail such that the majority of translations are rubbish and only a little cult founded by false prophets have the truth and everyone else goes to Hell

I don't think so.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What do you think that Jesus means when He says that "I and the Father We are one"? John 10:30

Here we go again.....it means unity of purpose....being on the same page.
John 17:20-21...
“I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." (NASB)
So they are all God then, are they?

In verse 28 Jesus says, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand"

In verse 29 Jesus says, "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"

Ummm, what am I missing here...?
Can Jesus give his disciples eternal life? His sacrifice guarantees it, so Jesus will see to it that no one snatches them out of his hand....
Yet verse 29 says "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand".
I think we can all see that the Father and son are at complete unity here. Where am I seeing that this is an admission that Jesus is God?
Are you suggesting that Jesus is the Father?

In Deuteronomy 32:39 it reads, ", “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.”

And, Isaiah 43:13, , “Also henceforth I am He; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”
It is very clear that Jesus, in verse 30, is speaking of His "essential unity" with the Father, as EQUAL with the Father, in Protection and Power and Authority. Also notice, that Jesus places Himself before the Father, which He would not have done if He were "inferior"

Is it? Who said? It's all in the way you read it apparently.....who says your way is the correct one? I see a unity that doesn't involve a trinity as well as the fact that the third party is almost always missing when Father and son are spoken about...care to explain his omission since he is supposedly an equal partner in this 'godhead'?

You keep on ignoring that FACT, that in Matthew 11:10, when Jesus quotes from Malachi 3:1, where the Speaker is "Yahweh of Hosts"; Jesus changes the pronoun, so that He is the Speaker in Malachi, and says that He is YHWH. Now try and disprove this!

This again?
Matthew 11:7-10...for context....
"As these disciples of John were going away, Jesus began speaking to the crowds about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ palaces! 9 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written:

‘Behold, I am sending My messenger ahead of You,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’
11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (NASB)

Malachi 3:1...
“Behold, I am sending My messenger, and he will clear a way before Me. And the Lord, whom you are seeking, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of armies." (NASB)
Sorry, but there is no hidden meanings in these verses. Yahweh is the speaker in both. Jesus is quoting God's words in Malachi concerning John the Baptist.....what on earth are you talking about?

How about you tackle the questions I raised in post #294 and after you have addressed those questions, we can discuss them....no one is ignoring anything but you....

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Here we go again.....it means unity of purpose....being on the same page.
John 17:22...
“I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." (NASB)
So they are all God then, are they?




Ummm, what am I missing here...?
Can Jesus give his disciples eternal life? His sacrifice guarantees it, so Jesus will see to it that no one snatches them out of his hand....
Yet verse 29 says "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand".
I think we can all see that the Father and son are at complete unity here. Where am I seeing that this is an admission that Jesus is God?
Are you suggesting that Jesus is the Father?


Is it? Who said? It's all in the way you read it apparently.....who says your way is the correct one? I see a unity that doesn't involve a trinity as well as the fact that the third party is almost always missing when Father and son are spoken about...care to explain his omission since he is supposedly an equal partner in this 'godhead'?


This again?
Matthew 11:7-10...for context....
"As these disciples of John were going away, Jesus began speaking to the crowds about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ palaces! 9 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written:

‘Behold, I am sending My messenger ahead of You,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’
11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (NASB)

Malachi 3:1...
“Behold, I am sending My messenger, and he will clear a way before Me. And the Lord, whom you are seeking, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of armies." (NASB)
Sorry, but there is no hidden meanings in these verses. Yahweh is the speaker in both. Jesus is quoting God's words in Malachi concerning John the Baptist.....what on earth are you talking about?

How about you tackle the questions I raised in post #294 and after you have addressed those questions, we can discuss them....no one is ignoring anything but you....

In the original words found in Malachi 3:1, where the Speaker is Yahweh. The Greek of Matthew 11:10 ( Mark 1:1-3; Luke 7:27), the words are neither from the Hebrew or Greek (LXX) of the passage in Malachi. Instead, The Lord Jesus Christ, on His own Authority, has changed the words, so that they refer directly to Himself, what is in Malachi, of Yahweh. Jesus has changed the first person, “before Me (μου)”, to the second person, “before thee (σου)”. In the passage in Malachi, Yahweh speaks of the “messenger”, who is John the Baptist, as His forerunner, “going before Him”. Jesus, by changing the pronoun, appropriates what Yahweh Speaks in Malachi, to Himself, and makes John the Baptist as His own “messenger”, who went before Him! In the passage in Malachi, we also have the Coming of the “the Messenger (Angel) of the Covenant”, Who is “the Lord ('âdôn) Whom you seek”, before Whom John the Baptist went to “prepare the Way”!

Matthew 3:3, and the other Gospels, also teaches that John the Baptist was the Forerunner of Yahweh, as in Jesus Christ, “God manifested in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16. Pauls words)

“For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare you the Way of the Lord, make His paths straight.”

In the original verse in Isaiah 40:3, it reads, “The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the Way of the LORD (Yahweh), make straight in the desert a highway for our God”

By using this passage in Isaiah for the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Gospels, is beyond any doubt, one of the strongest evidences in Scripture, for the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ! Only those who doubt the Word of God, will doubt this about Jesus Christ.

Now show that Jesus Christ does not apply the Speaker of Malachi 3:1, Who is Yahweh, as HIMSELF? Show WHY Jesus changed the pronoun. These are FACTS

The Prophecy in Isaiah of the Coming of Yahweh, is fulfilled in the Coming of Jesus Christ. Now try and disprove this FACT!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

@tigger 2 it seems to me that there is a huge concentration on a few verses that ‘appear’ to support the trinity, whilst ignoring the host of scriptures that demonstrate that it was not possible for Jesus to be the Almighty.....not the least of which is the atonement value of Jesus’ sacrifice.

@ByGraceThroughFaith The truth is....the Almighty is immortal and therefore cannot die. Jesus, as a spirit being, who was at his Father’s right hand, as “the beginning of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14) like all other spirit beings created by the Father, (“through” his “firstborn”. Colossians 1:15-17) was not immortal and could therefore become a human by the operation of God’s spirit, and offer his life in exchange for Adam’s sin. That is “atonement”...one for one...like for like...which was God’s law. (Deuteronomy 19:21)

To reinforce the validity of his actual death, Jesus was to remain in his tomb for three days and nights as it was prophesied. (Matthew 12:38-40) Only then was he resurrected. Who resurrected Jesus?

To understand the principle behind redemption, there is a set price....no more, no less. It could be paid by anyone who wanted to bail the debtor out of his debt...a relative or other benefactor could pay the price owed. Jesus was a willing volunteer and had his Father’s approval and assistance to be “sent” and to become a human being so that his life could be 100% human...not a god/man because Adam was not a god/man...he was created sinless, just as Jesus was created sinless. That is all Jesus needed to be...a sinless equivalent of the sinner who created the debt in the first place. He is “the last Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45) because his life was the equivalent of the first Adam, the original debtor. (Romans 5:12)

1 Timothy 2:5-6 says...
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” (ESV)
If there is “one God” and Jesus is the “one mediator between God and men”....how can Jesus be God?
We all know what a “ransom” is.....it is the price demanded to free a captive. Jesus’ sinless human life, was that ransom. If Jesus was God, the price is a ridiculous overpayment. Like using 10 trillion cans of bug spray to kill one mosquito. To redeem the human race, an equivalent “life” was required.

The fact that Jesus was “sent” by his Father to fulfill this role of redeemer, shows that Jesus is not God.

As Jesus himself said....in prayer to his Father....
“And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.” (John 17:3-5 - ESV)

Is God praying to himself? If Jesus was God, how does God need to glorify himself “with the glory he had before the world was”? Was God “with” himself?
Why do we need to “know” the Father and the son in order to gain eternal life, but not the third and equal person of the trinity.....the Holy Spirit?

How or why would God need to “send” himself, given the fact that as an immortal, he could not die.
How can Jesus call his Father “the only true God” without including himself in that description?

So even suggesting that Jesus is Almighty God flies in the face of his role as redeemer....and is undone by all these other scriptures. If Jesus was God, then the over payment would have been completely unnecessary, not to mention, impossible, since an immortal God cannot die!

Jesus has a God, whom he identified as his Father. (John 20:17) The Jews never expected their Messiah to be anything other than a human being, who was prophesied to be born at a specific location (Bethlehem) and in a certain tribe of Israel (Judah). Jesus fulfilled both criteria.

The Jews considered Jesus to be a blasphemer because he claimed to be “the son of God”...imagine if he had claimed to be God incarnate!....which is something he NEVER did....not once.

Firstly, you are WRONG about Jesus' words in Revelation 3:14, I have already done this, read and then try to disprove it, Jesus Christ The αρχη of The Creation

Your support for the LIES that is posted on here by @tigger 2 is clear that what you believe in is also LIES!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Eight hours later and I’m still surprised that you think the Geneva Bible is disrespectful of Jesus. I accept it, and acknowledge that you have every right to, but I’ve never come across anyone prior to you who felt that way about it.

I’ve heard various arguments for and against the Geneva Bible but never before that it disrespects Jesus. You’ve added a wrinkle to my life experience, and I thank you for that.

The Geneva Bible: The Bible of the Protestant Reformation

https://www.amazon.com/Geneva-Bible-Protestant-Reformation/dp/1598562126

To say that part of the Godhead is an it rather than a He is disrespectful.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In the original words found in Malachi 3:1, where the Speaker is Yahweh. The Greek of Matthew 11:10 ( Mark 1:1-3; Luke 7:27), the words are neither from the Hebrew or Greek (LXX) of the passage in Malachi. Instead, The Lord Jesus Christ, on His own Authority, has changed the words, so that they refer directly to Himself, what is in Malachi, of Yahweh. Jesus has changed the first person, “before Me (μου)”, to the second person, “before thee (σου)”. In the passage in Malachi, Yahweh speaks of the “messenger”, who is John the Baptist, as His forerunner, “going before Him”. Jesus, by changing the pronoun, appropriates what Yahweh Speaks in Malachi, to Himself, and makes John the Baptist as His own “messenger”, who went before Him! In the passage in Malachi, we also have the Coming of the “the Messenger (Angel) of the Covenant”, Who is “the Lord ('âdôn) Whom you seek”, before Whom John the Baptist went to “prepare the Way”!

Matthew 3:3, and the other Gospels, also teaches that John the Baptist was the Forerunner of Yahweh, as in Jesus Christ, “God manifested in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16. Pauls words)

“For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare you the Way of the Lord, make His paths straight.”

In the original verse in Isaiah 40:3, it reads, “The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the Way of the LORD (Yahweh), make straight in the desert a highway for our God”

By using this passage in Isaiah for the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Gospels, is beyond any doubt, one of the strongest evidences in Scripture, for the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ! Only those who doubt the Word of God, will doubt this about Jesus Christ.

Now show that Jesus Christ does not apply the Speaker of Malachi 3:1, Who is Yahweh, as HIMSELF? Show WHY Jesus changed the pronoun. These are FACTS

The Prophecy in Isaiah of the Coming of Yahweh, is fulfilled in the Coming of Jesus Christ. Now try and disprove this FACT!

And on and on it goes......copy and paste, again and again......please do some research on the word "theos" because you seem to have no idea what it means to call one who is not Yahweh, "god". Satan is called "theos"(2 Corinthians 4:4)....human judges in Israel are called "theos" by Yahweh himself (John 10:34-36)....if you want to make Jesus into God with a capital "G", then you do more than he does in all of the NT.

Please address my other points...or are you avoiding them?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Here we go again.....it means unity of purpose....being on the same page.
John 17:20-21...
“I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." (NASB)
So they are all God then, are they?

Each in its OWN CONTEXT. The CONTEXT on John 10:30 is clear, that ESSENTIAL UNITY is meant, as Jesus says that His Power, Authority and Protection of His sheep, is EXACTLY as The Fathers.

The Greek THEOS is also used for the devil, and for humans, are we to then understand in all its uses, the meaning is the same? No. Context and use are important

In Revelation 5:13-14, Jesus Christ is EQUALLY given "And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, AND unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)" HOW is this possible if Jesus Christ is not ALMIGHTY GOD?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And on and on it goes......copy and paste, again and again......please do some research on the word "theos" because you seem to have no idea what it means to call one who is not Yahweh, "god". Satan is called "theos"(2 Corinthians 4:4)....human judges in Israel are called "theos" by Yahweh himself (John 10:34-36)....if you want to make Jesus into God with a capital "G", then you do more than he does in all of the NT.

Please address my other points...or are you avoiding them?

I am copying and pasting from MY OWN studies, unlike the LIES that is posted on here by @tigger 2 and your support for these LIES!

You have FAILED to show why Jesus changed the pronoun in Matthew 11:10, which is clear that He says that He is YHWH! Disprove this if you can!"

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And on and on it goes......copy and paste, again and again......please do some research on the word "theos" because you seem to have no idea what it means to call one who is not Yahweh, "god". Satan is called "theos"(2 Corinthians 4:4)....human judges in Israel are called "theos" by Yahweh himself (John 10:34-36)....if you want to make Jesus into God with a capital "G", then you do more than he does in all of the NT.

Please address my other points...or are you avoiding them?

You are a Jehovah's Witness, so WHY does the Watchtower LIE and MISREPRESENT the truth, as I have shown, on John 1:1, and other passages? John 1:1 EXPOSING the JWs LIES

How can you belong to anyone who is DISHONEST with what the Bible says?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Firstly, you are WRONG about Jesus' words in Revelation 3:14, I have already done this, read and then try to disprove it, Jesus Christ The αρχη of The Creation

Revelation 3:14...
KJ21
“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: ‘These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
ASV
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
BRG
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
DARBY
And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
DLNT
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea, write— These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
DRA
And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:
ESV
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

This is just a few translations, there are many more...so are they all wrong?

"ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." (Strongs)

If Jesus is the "Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15-17) then he is the first of God's creations and no fiddling with the words will alter that fact.

Your support for the LIES that is posted on here by @tigger 2 is clear that what you believe in is also LIES!

Here we go with the accusations again.....those who can't debate attack.....the cracks are showing. You sound desperate, and your lack of response to my questions is telling.
Stop stalling and answer them....or can't you?

@tigger 2 has it all over you in his research......much more thorough IMO. You just keep harping on the same point as if that will make it correct after the umteenth time.....its still wrong according to my understanding of the scriptures.

How can you belong to anyone who is DISHONEST with what the Bible says?

Because I left the lies and dishonesty that Christendom taught me for the first 20 years of my life.....I have studied the Bible thoroughly for 50 years now, and no one will ever take me back to the fake Christianity of the disunited churches of Christendom.

You can grandstand and carry on all you wish, childishly calling people names.....it won't make what you want to believe, true.
But you knew that...right?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Revelation 3:14...
KJ21
“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: ‘These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
ASV
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
BRG
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
DARBY
And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
DLNT
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea, write— These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
DRA
And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:
ESV
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

This is just a few translations, there are many more...so are they all wrong?

"ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." (Strongs)

If Jesus is the "Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15-17) then he is the first of God's creations and no fiddling with the words will alter that fact.


Here we go with the accusations again.....those who can't debate attack.....the cracks are showing. You sound desperate, and your lack of response to my questions is telling.
Stop stalling and answer them....or can't you?

@tigger 2 has it all over you in his research......much more thorough IMO. You just keep harping on the same point as if that will make it correct after the umteenth time.....its still wrong according to my understanding of the scriptures.


Because I left the lies and dishonesty that Christendom taught me for the first 20 years of my life.....I have studied the Bible thoroughly for 50 years now, and no one will ever take me back to the fake Christianity of the disunited churches of Christendom.

You can grandstand and carry on all you wish, childishly calling people names.....it won't make what you want to believe, true.
But you knew that...right?

the NWT reads "BY God" and not "OF God", as Jesus Christ is the CREATOR, unless you think that God the Father is a LIAR? He says in Hebrews 1:10-12, that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR of the entire universe, and is quoting from Psalm 102:24-27, which is used for ELOHIM!

FIRSTBORN is NOT FIRST CREATED, this is another LIE! In Colossians 1:18 Jesus is the FIRSTBORN from the dead, does this mean FIRST CREATED?

”In Psalm 89:27, we read of King David: “Also I will make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth”. We know from 1 Samuel 17:14, that, “David was the youngest”, son of Jesse, which means that the term “first-born”

in Exodus 4:22, “then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.”. And Jeremiah 31:9, “For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn”.

Are we to say FIRST CREATED in these passages?

You continue to promote LIES!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Because I left the lies and dishonesty that Christendom taught me for the first 20 years of my life.....I have studied the Bible thoroughly for 50 years now, and no one will ever take me back to the fake Christianity of the disunited churches of Christendom.

You can grandstand and carry on all you wish, childishly calling people names.....it won't make what you want to believe, true.
But you knew that...right?

are you a Jehovah's Witness, yes or no?

 

[Matthias]

To say that part of the Godhead is an it rather than a He is disrespectful.

I understand. I’m not trying to change your mind but I truly find it stunning that you believe the Protestant Reformation was a massive “disrespect Jesus” movement.