The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[Earburner]

Sure. But none of that contradicts hell is the second death where someone dies. It’s not a spiritual death. It’s a literal death. Just like if I got in a wreck and flung through a window and smashed on the road. Dead.

Yes, each and everyone of us are physically born, being spiritually dead to God "already", which is the first death. KJV John 3:18

If a person does not come to God through Faith in Jesus, and then physically dies, they will have died the second death. The fulness of their being will have completely died, and taken up residence full time in the grave, which is "hell", the pit, of which ultimately winds up in the Lake of Fire, on the very same day that Jesus returns in all His Glory.
Luke 17:28-30.

 

[Skovand1075]

No. We disagree.

the first death is not being born. Bavaria are not born dead to god. Babies don’t need to be forgiven. Original sin is not in the Bible. We see only guilty of our own sins we commit.

the first death is the first time we physically die and remain dead until resurrection. The second death the post judgement death after e wet one is resurrected.

 

[Earburner]

No. We disagree.

the first death is not being born. Bavaria are not born dead to god. Babies don’t need to be forgiven. Original sin is not in the Bible. We see only guilty of our own sins we commit.

the first death is the first time we physically die and remain dead until resurrection. The second death the post judgement death after e wet one is resurrected.

Of course, what I am revealing here, is not any easy task to accept, mainly because that which is religiously popular in your mind, has taken very deep root, due to hundreds of years of reinforced repetition in the preaching of the popular view.

So now I ask, is not being born again of the Holy Spirit the down payment in "part" by His resurrection, who is the First resurrection Himself?
Indeed it is. Romans 8:9

If you will, please read KJV John 3:18 agaIn, and see the two judgments of God.[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
When was everyone condemned to death already?
Ans. Ever since A&E. We all are inheritors of death.
Death was God's first judgment issued to man.

The second judgment of God is unto Life through His Son. Since all are under the first judgment, but choose to neglect, reject and/or refuse God's second judgment unto eternal life, by default they remain to be condemned already under His first judgment.

 

[Skovand1075]

Well if we continue reading Romans 8 we see this.


Romans 8:18-25
New American Standard Bible
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?25 But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

waiting for it.

we see awaiting the resurrection. We are waiting to be saved when we hear our name called.

John 3:16-21
New American Standard Bible
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. 21 But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God.”

so at what point is this judgement determined? It’s upon out death. Until our death, our first death, we may stop running the good race. Or we can run the whole race into death.

 

[Earburner]

Well if we continue reading Romans 8 we see this.


Romans 8:18-25
New American Standard Bible
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?25 But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

waiting for it.

we see awaiting the resurrection. We are waiting to be saved when we hear our name called.

John 3:16-21
New American Standard Bible
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. 21 But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God.”

so at what point is this judgement determined? It’s upon out death. Until our death, our first death, we may stop running the good race. Or we can run the whole race into death.

In Romans 8, the words "creature", "creation" (G2937) are used making reference to the original human creation, both the saved and the unsaved. Those who walk (live) in their flesh without the Spirit of God within them, as well as those who walk (live) in the Spirit with the Spirt of God within them. (See Romans 8:8-9).

KJV Romans 8[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature (our very ownselves G2937) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (The unsaved are not waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God).
[20] For the creature (our natural man) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[21] Because the creature (our bodies) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [For those who are born again of the Spirit].
[22] For we know that the whole creation [of man, saved and unsaved G2937] groaneth and travaileth in pain together [even] until now.
[23] And not only they [the unsaved], but ourselves [the saved] also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit [the Apostles], even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[24] For we [the saved] are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

 

[Skovand1075]

In Romans 8, the words "creature", "creation" (G2937) are used making reference to the original human creation, both the saved and the unsaved. Those who walk (live) in their flesh without the Spirit of God within them, as well as those who walk (live) in the Spirit with the Spirt of God within them. (See Romans 8:8-9).

KJV Romans 8[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature (our very ownselves G2937) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (The unsaved are not waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God).
[20] For the creature (our natural man) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[21] Because the creature (our bodies) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [For those who are born again of the Spirit].
[22] For we know that the whole creation [of man, saved and unsaved G2937] groaneth and travaileth in pain together [even] until now.
[23] And not only they [the unsaved], but ourselves [the saved] also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit [the Apostles], even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[24] For we [the saved] are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I agree with you on bits and pieces. But ultimately you’re just not convincing me of anything beyond surface level stuff. It’s not some tradition on the rest of it that has be confused. When studying the Bible out, and looking into the studies of scholarship, it all just seems to point towards the second death being after we physically die on earth and get resurrected. Some to eternal life and some to the eternal punishment of being left dead forever. I’m fully convinced by annhilationism and if it ever did change it would be more towards universalism. But I don’t see that happening to be honest. Conditional Immorality as described in the book I mentioned by Edward Fudge seems to really line it out well.

 

[Earburner]

I hear you. However, there is much of what has been preached for 2000 years (after the Apostles) that has swayed many generations into doctrinal word blenders of all types, having arguments on all sides.

When Jesus said that He didn't come to send peace on the earth, but rather division, it is apparent that He has touched all things, even the visible denominational churches.

As for our individual Bible studies for His meaning, by Him utilizing our human words, I always heed Isaiah 55:8-9, Zechariah 4:6 and John 16:13.
From there, I simply leave it with Him to reveal His truth to me by His mind within me, and not my own.
1 Corinthians 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[Earburner]

No. We disagree.

the first death is not being born. Bavaria are not born dead to god. Babies don’t need to be forgiven. Original sin is not in the Bible. We see only guilty of our own sins we commit.

the first death is the first time we physically die and remain dead until resurrection. The second death the post judgement death after e wet one is resurrected.

Sorry, babies, who are generated by the "seed" of the parents, are born without the Holy Spirit of God, which is the vehicle of God's Righteousness and the Gift of Eternal life.

 

[Skovand1075]

Sorry, babies, who are generated by the "seed" of the parents, are born without the Holy Spirit of God, which is the vehicle of God's Righteousness and the Gift of Eternal life.

I’ve yet to see that in the Bible. But I did see Jesus call little kids to him and see him saying we are not guilty of our parents sin.

 

[Earburner]

I’ve yet to see that in the Bible. But I did see Jesus call little kids to him and see him saying we are not guilty of our parents sin.

It would help if you could provide the scripture.
Thanks.
We're you referencing Luke 18:16?

 

[Skovand1075]

Ezekiel 18:20
New American Standard Bible
20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

min addition to that we never once read we are guilty of what Adam did. Like I won’t go to hell because of the choices Adam made.

which verse are you reading that says little kids go to hell?

 

[Earburner]

All of Ezekiel 18 is talking about the statutes of the Law, and the righteousnes of the Law, through the Law. The Righteousness of God, by way of faith in Jesus, supercedes the righteousness of the Law.
Through keeping the statutes of the Law, sin was only forgiven for a period of one year (by animal sacrifices), but it could NEVER remove sin.

John.1[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Matt.5[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Hebrews 10[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away [remove] sins.
[5] Wherefore when he [Jesus] cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

One shouldn't mix apples with oranges.

 

[Earburner]

min addition to that we never once read we are guilty of what Adam did. Like I won’t go to hell because of the choices Adam made.

which verse are you reading that says little kids go to hell?

So, without Christ, you are going to live forever, never to experience God's judgment of death?

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KoG.
1Cor.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

As an example, aside from Noah's family, and also Lot's family, were there any little children spared?
Luke 17[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Skovand1075]

So, without Christ, you are going to live forever, never to experience God's judgment of death?

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KoG.
1Cor.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

As an example, aside from Noah's family, and also Lot's family, were there any little children spared?
Luke 17[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

where did I say without Christ I would live forever?

 

[Earburner]

where did I say without Christ I would live forever?

"in addition to that we never once read we are guilty of what Adam did. Like I won’t go to hell because of the choices Adam made."

In all actuality, you will die and go to hell (the grave) because of what Adam did! That is God's first judgment. As far as I know, it's still in effect.

However, for God's second judgment of Eternal Life, through His Son, via the Gift Holy Spirit, you shall never die.
John 3:18

 

[Skovand1075]

"in addition to that we never once read we are guilty of what Adam did. Like I won’t go to hell because of the choices Adam made."

In all actuality, you will die and go to hell (the grave) because of what Adam did! That is God's first judgment. As far as I know, it's still in effect.

However, for God's second judgment of Eternal Life, through His Son, via the Gift Holy Spirit, you shall never die.
John 3:18

So I never said anything about Christ period. Definitely never said anything about not needing Christ. What said, clearly, was that I’m not guilty of the sins Adam committed. Just like my son is not guilty of my sins. Just like you’re not guilty of your fathers sins. We are all guilty of our own sins. A baby does not sin. A baby can’t choose right or wrong. A baby is not burn in danger of going to hell if it does prior to growing up and learning about Jesus and accepting him. Hell is not full of babies they never had a chance to grow up and pray to god or get baptized.

 

[Jack]

So I never said anything about Christ period. Definitely never said anything about not needing Christ. What said, clearly, was that I’m not guilty of the sins Adam committed. Just like my son is not guilty of my sins. Just like you’re not guilty of your fathers sins. We are all guilty of our own sins. A baby does not sin. A baby can’t choose right or wrong. A baby is not burn in danger of going to hell if it does prior to growing up and learning about Jesus and accepting him. Hell is not full of babies they never had a chance to grow up and pray to god or get baptized.

Babies do not go to Hell, NEVER!

 

[Skovand1075]

Babies do not go to Hell, NEVER!

So then we agree….

 

[Jack]

So then we agree….

Good!

 

[Earburner]

So I never said anything about Christ period. Definitely never said anything about not needing Christ. What said, clearly, was that I’m not guilty of the sins Adam committed. Just like my son is not guilty of my sins. Just like you’re not guilty of your fathers sins. We are all guilty of our own sins. A baby does not sin. A baby can’t choose right or wrong. A baby is not burn in danger of going to hell if it does prior to growing up and learning about Jesus and accepting him. Hell is not full of babies they never had a chance to grow up and pray to god or get baptized.

Of all the little children (babies) that came/come into the world, I only know of two that were born with the Holy Spirit at birth. All others were/are born without the Holy Spirit, and therefore are born as "the natural man", being of mere "flesh and blood".